A two-state solution for Canada?

[Machjo]

I would be more concerned about Canada's soveriegnty than Quebec's.
Right now from the things I have been reading , this soveriegnty movement is just a smoke screen for bleeding money from the Government. The federalist are also involved ....
What I don't understand is the Seperatist keep saying that there would be more money left if it didn't go to Ottawa...... Why are the federalist not correcting that statement? Take a poll , and most Quebecers believe there is more money going to Ottawa than is returned.

To the original question .....Quebec right now has all it needs...If the politicians didn't have anything to continually demand then they would be stuck running the finaces of this province responsably........which they can't , no matter who is in power .

So why does English-Canada not put an end to equalization payments, and then tell Quebec that it's more than welcome to remain in Canada if it wants to, but otherwise, we could negotiate some kind of sovereignty-association, bearing in mind that equalization payments are finished? It's English-Canada's fault if it continues to suport such payments. After all, Quebec has only about 1/4 the seats in Parliament.

I just wonder, if the voting Québécois realises that when separating they have to take their share of the national debt with them???

Of course most do. How stupid do you think they are?

Ooooooooops sorry about that.

And I'm Franco-Ontarian, so watch it.

 

[JLM]

Stupid enough to seriously consider separating. :lol:

There's an old saying- "United we stand divided we fall"

 

[Machjo]

And a whole lot less territory than is now Quebec.

Everybody thinks this stuff is easy, straightforward.....

If Canada is divisible, so is Quebec, starting with (but not limited to) the district called Ungava......which was NOT part of Quebec until 1912. It is largely native in population, and it is doubtful it would want to go.

Things are getting complicated, eh?

And here's a prediction for you.....any attempt at unilateral independence for Quebec (as planned by that moron Parizeau had he won the referendum) will lead to civil war.

It is the elephant in the room no one wants to discuss.

I think it's obvious to any tinking person that if X can separate from Y, then Z can also separate from Z. Bear in mind though that this would also mean A can separate from X, especially in the face of unfulfilled treaties. As a result, we'd likely see a nuber of separations taking place across Canada and Quebec, and that's why maintaining friendly relations among all groups would be crucial.

Sure Ungava might separate from Quebec, but with its small popuation, it would still want to maintain some kind of relationship with Queebc, the rest of Canada, the US (such as through NAFTA), etc. Bear in mind though that if Ungava separates, Nunavut might get interested too, etc. down the line. In the end, this is why it would be in the interests of all sides to maintian friendly relations and close ies, even if we did separate, and that's where I think maintaining at least a common citizenship if nothing else would help smooth things out and benefit all of the new countries formed from this.

 

[JLM]

[QUOTE

And I'm Franco-Ontarian, so watch it. [/QUOTE]

And I'm Anglo - British Columbian (not that, that entitles me to any special favours) :lol:

 

[DaSleeper]

And I'm Franco-Ontarian, so watch it.

And I'm Canadian Francophone from Ontario.
La différence est Vive la différence;-)

 

[darkbeaver]

No dual citizens period.

 

[Chiliagon]

why not just build a giant wall at the Ontario Quebec border and put armed guards and call it the North/South Korea of the Americas..

ha... ya right.

I am joking..

 

[JLM]

No dual citizens period.

Since when did you become Prime Minister?

 

[Machjo]

but it doesn't work that way.

you don't get to separate but then have all this free help and rules and amendments.

if you separate, you separate completely.. there's no partial or separation with clauses.

I'm an Ontarian. If Quebec separates, especially seeing that I live in Ottawa, total separation would certainly wreak havoc on my local economy. We live right on the Ontario-Quebec border. Looking at it that way, if Quebec separation were total, I'd probably leave Ottawa and move either to Toronto or Montreal, or anywhere else far away from the Ontario-Quebec border, seeing that that whole region would become an economic no-man's land facing economic chaos.

Oh, wait a minute, moving to Montreal or Quebec City would not even be an option for me now would it. So I'd have no choice but to move to Toronto or anywere else outside Quebec far from the Ontario-Quebec border. But then again, seeing that many others would be doing the same thing, chances are many other cities across Canada would be feeling the pressure from housing shortages etc from the migration, so maybe I would be better off staying in Ottawa. Meanwhile, I'd likely have to pay higher taxes to retrain all those Ottawans who'd have lost thei jobs owing to losing the Quebec market, or companies having to close down after losing the qualifies Gatineau workforce they may have been dependent on.

In short, you're proposing screwing any town over on either side of the Ontario-Quebec border, including Ottawa where I live. And if you think for one moment that by refusing citizenship to Quebecers, that Quebec wouldn't retaliate, then you're dreaming in technicolour. So there is no doubt that my options would be blocked too.

So emotions aside, it would make perfect sense for us to agree to common citizenship if nothing else. Even with that there would be some economic chaos as transfer payments cease, leading to a restructuring of the public-private sector relationship. But by maintaining a common citizenship, we'd be ensuring that Ottawa companies that depend on the Gatineau labour and consumer markets could continue to function, and the same in reverse for Gatinuea companies just across the river. It would also mean that I as an Ottawan would have the option if necessary to work in Gatineau, Montreal or Quebec, and to access their industrial markets for whatever products or services I might need, etc.

What you seem to be proposing is that you'd be wiling to screw Eastern Ontario over just to feed your own ego. And unfortunately Ottawa would be totaly screwd on all fronts. If we separate from Ontario to join Quebec, then we'd also be cutting ourselves off from any other city neighbouring Ottawa. So in short, because we'd be right on the border, it really would not matter which side we went with, since we'd be equaly screwed either way.

I hate to say this but Ottawa's economy is equally dependent on the Quebec and Ontario markets. It just cannot make such a choice and survive as a city without facing years of economic chaos.

We can also add to that that if we should face decades of unemployment here in Ottawa and Gatineau just across the river likewise, the risk of civil war would be much greater than if both sides could collaborate to ensure the least economic chaos possible on both sides, so as to emsure families remain gainfully employed.

Stupid enough to seriously consider separating. :lol:

There's an old saying- "United we stand divided we fall"

Again, it's all a matter of degree. If you totally oppose separation, then how about we eliminate provinces and territories altogether and have one unitary system of government? To the opposite extreme, we have city states. I believe there is a happy medium, ideally sitting at decentralization, with sovereignty-association being my second choice.

But no I don't believe anyone should get any special privileges, and the proposal in the OP would in fact likely put an end to equalizaiton payments to Quebec.

 

[eh1eh]

What would be your thoughts on Quebec voluntarily separating from Canada but sharing a common citizenship and passport?

Pros and cons?

They either remain part of Canada or get their own currency and pay out the part of the debt they have incured by making themselves a have not province. Plus we annex Hull and everything south of the St Lawrence in order to maintain sovereignty over the Seaway as we have a treaty that says we will. It was a joint effort with the US but lies within our sovereign boards. So see you later Quebec.

 

[coldstream]

There are only two viable options for Canada. A bilingual country with 10 equal provinces, with one citizenship, one patriotic allegiance to the nation of Canada, with protection for French and English superceding that of any provincial privilege.

The other is a Canada without Quebec, the former and latter being sovereign countries with their own citizenship, currency, defense forces, and borders that limit free movement of products and people. There is nothing in between, that would work.

Only a few Quebec separatists are brave enough to propose this, knowing that the Quebec would be a much poorer entity. One that would be a small solitude of a much less secure French language, dominated by American culture, without the buffer of Canada to insulate it. It would just be another latin banana (or poutine) republic in the Americas.

 

[petros]

PQ can split if they want but they can pay their share of the debt before anything is signed. I want cash/gold specie not trees or hydro.

 

[darkbeaver]

No split, period.

 

[ironsides]

I think this whole thing about a divided Canada is total nonsense. If your sorry Quebec was conquered, say your sorry and give it back. A divided Canada would not survive.

 

[JLM]

I think this whole thing about a divided Canada is total nonsense. If your sorry Quebec was conquered, say your sorry and give it back. A divided Canada would not survive.

Yep- united we stand divided we fall.. :lol:

 

[wulfie68]

Interesting the way this topic keeps popping up all the time. That we never seem to be able to get away from it makes me wonder if Quebec seperation isn't becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy...

And if you think for one moment that by refusing citizenship to Quebecers, that Quebec wouldn't retaliate, then you're dreaming in technicolour. So there is no doubt that my options would be blocked too.

Actually, given the way the Quebec provincial gov't has repeatedly invoked the not-withstanding clause to protect their draconian laws protecting their faiding langauge and culture, it is far more likely that the whole tit-for-tat would start in Q.C. and not Ottawa. Count me in with the others that still don't see much upside in the whole two-state idea: French culture has declined globally, not only losing ground to English but even more so given the rise of the Asian economies, and pandering to a group of under-developed nations through some lose (and almsot non-existent) bond in the Francophonie doesn't offer much compared to targeting other groups.

There are only two viable options for Canada. A bilingual country with 10 equal provinces, with one citizenship, one patriotic allegiance to the nation of Canada, with protection for French and English superceding that of any provincial privilege.

The other is a Canada without Quebec, the former and latter being sovereign countries with their own citizenship, currency, defense forces, and borders that limit free movement of products and people. There is nothing in between, that would work.

I don't know that Canada without Quebec would work either: there is far too much cash and distrust of the "Ontario agenda" (for lack of a better term) in the west to just accept the tyranny of the majority that would result. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with it as is, never mind if Ontario gained more power by losing its counter-weight. I think the whole thing would come apart, and it wouldn't even have to start with Quebec: Alberta and Newfoundland have been the most vocal but other provinces do have seperatist sentiment as well.

In the end, if Quebecers really want to leave confederation, they will. I'll also add that I don't see a civil war as an impossibility in all this, as there is a lot of emotion tied in with the various shapes of regionalismand nationalism. Especially as Colpy said, if there was a declaration of independence immediately following a closely contested referendum.

 

[Nuggler]

And F you too.

What are you? A wanna be dictator?



Nope. That won't happen, and you won't do anything about it.

Kinda out of your mind are you?

I think it's pretty obvious that yes we would take our share of the national debt.

That's a pretty large LOL. Never seen Que. take their fair share of anything, except handouts, and they probably take more than their "fair share" (whatever that is), of them.

All I've seen them do is bitch and whine and ensure the "maudit Anglais' don't get a fair share of anything in their goddam "provance"

Again..........F you.

Then Quebec and Cuba are going to have a swell relationship, one dating back to that nut Trudeau, if they nationalize privately owned armanent industries.

Turdo is the only reason you still have your "official" language, and your "rights" to sh it on everyone who doesn't believe in French rule. And he's the only reason we are saddled with the "immigration" shyte we have today.

You should thank your lucky stars you live in a nation of sheep.

 

[Johnnny]

Never seen Que. take their fair share of anything, except handouts,

Anyone remeber back in 1998 or something were quebec was shut down by ice storms and the rest of canada helped out. Knowing the Quebecios they probally thought we were invading them lol......But i guess when your selfish you only think about yourself....

 

[BaalsTears]

....Sorry, there is one more thing the US could do I suppose, and that would be to try to integrate Canada into a larger North American entity similar to the EU. It would mean the US sacrificing some of its sovereignty to a moderate degree, but in exchange for most North American integration and thus increased continental stability. You would not want such an organization closing North America off to the rest of the world though, and would still have to maintain open trade with the rest of the world. Such a North American organization would supplement current world trade and not replace it.

Very interesting post. But I am deeply pessimistic about America.

There are some new ideas circulating in America which have not been seen for a very long time. America is in deep and sustained decline politically and economically. This has the effect of ending Pax Americana. The end of that phenomenon relieves America of its obligations to provide any international order.

The idea that makes more and more sense to some Americans is neo-isolationism. America is like a wounded animal that must find refuge and heal itself. I wish this were not true. It breaks my heart. But I will not lie to myself. In many ways, Americans are a broken people.

 

[darkbeaver]

Wounded animal, it's best to put them done of course.