911 take 911

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C

I have to admit I baited you to see how far you would go now it's time to bust this one faster then a fat boy on a corn dog before you emberass yourself anymore.:lol:


One of the largest chemical "residues" from thermite is sulfur. One of the largest sources of residue from the collapse(s) was powdered drywall. Guess what's in drywall, and is a much larger percentage of drywall as compaired to “thermite”?

Sulfur.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
Thermite is mixture of aluminium powders and iron oxides (rust) - window
frames of WTC buildings were made of aluminium. Based on force of
collapse expect find aluminium [COLOR=#d0d060 !important][COLOR=#d0d060 !important]shavings[/COLOR][/COLOR] and powder in dust. Plenty of
rusty iron around too.

Military grade Thermite (Thermate or TH 3) has small amount of sulphur
added as binder and to produce flames and spatter burning particles to
increase incendiary effect. Barium nitrate also component - barium
used in flourescent light tubes as electron emittter - care to guess how
many flourescent lights were in those buildings?

Jone was a fringe character pursuing scientific marginal quests like
cold fusion and other theories on the kook line. When went off deep
end and spouting off about THERMITE, [COLOR=#d0d060 !important][COLOR=#d0d060 !important]university[/COLOR][/COLOR] gave him the heave
not willing to be dragged into the controvesy
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
:lol:It's a naturally occuring substance,maybe thats why they found traces of it.

Your quoting the work of a guy that has been dismissed by all his colleauges,Jones is not a credible source.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
The thermite myth has been busted so many times now it's not funny.

A recently published article in an online science journal has come to the conclusion that minute flakes of thermite have been identified in particle samples collected at the site of the World Trade Center collapse.

The article entitled “Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” was recently published in “The Open Chemical Physics Journal,” which is part of the Bentham Open Science Publishers group of journals.

Researchers from Denmark, the United States and Australia reported that dust samples collected near the collapsed World Trade Center complex contained iron oxide and aluminum flakes whose chemical composition was consistent with unburned thermite.




The researchers used a number of techniques to analyze the chips including scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC).

The researchers used supposed samples of the dust that spread over lower Manhattan after the WTC buildings collapsed. Several samples that had been kept by residents for years as “souvenirs” of the disaster were given to the researchers between 2006 and 2008, many years after the disaster. This raises serious “chain of custody” issues for the evidence which would almost certainly preclude the samples from being used in a court of law. But assuming the samples were valid, there are many more serious issues with the work of this research group.

First, with regard to the idea that this work was published in a “peer reviewed scientific journal”, it should be noted that the Open Chemical Physics Journal is a pay-to-publish online-only journal that has published a total of 12 articles in its history. They have no track record, and no impact factor in the field. In essence, they are a vanity publisher for scientists who can’t get their work published anywhere else. To call them a peer-reviewed science journal is a real stretch.

Before I get into details about why this work is so poorly done, and why the interpretations of the researchers are so suspect, it is important to state that the thermite argument was put forward by these same researchers years ago, and the idea was fully debunked years ago. See for example here: http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf.

The researchers found unusual looking “red/grey chips” that could be collected with magnets in all of the WTC dust samples given to them. One particularly unusual finding in this research article was that the percentage of "red/gray chips" of supposedly "unreacted thermite" amounted to approximately 0.1% of the total mass of the collected dust. Assuming that most of the "thermite" would have burned when set off, and only a fraction remained unreacted, then the amount of 0.1% of the total dust is astounding. It translates to tens or even hundreds of thousands of tons (assuming many millions of tons of building materials total, see page 23, para 3 of the article).

It is no small coincidence that the major components that the researchers detected in the red and grey chips include iron, aluminum, oxygen, silica, and carbon, since these relate to the primary building materials that the WTC was constructed from. The girders were steel, which rusts to iron oxide, the façade was aluminum, and the floors were concrete. The traces of calcium and sulfur could easily be from wallboard (calcium sulfate), as the authors themselves conclude.

The chips that they analyzed were thin flakes, often only microns thick (a micron is 1/1000 of a millimeter). They all had a grey layer, and a red layer. The grey layers were said to be composed of iron oxide based on the X-ray dispersive spectroscopy, which seems somewhat unusual, since most iron oxide is red in color, not grey (one form of naturally occurring hematite is metallic grey). The red layer of the chips was said to be composed of carbon, with added iron, aluminum, silicon and oxygen, and lesser amounts of sodium, calcium, and potassium. This is not the composition of thermite.

X-ray dispersive spectroscopy can tell you what elements are in a sample, but not what molecules those elements are incorporated into. Any sample of dust from the WTC collapse would contain similar amounts of these elements because those are the primary elements that made up the steel superstructure, concrete flooring, aluminum facade and other building materials (not to mention the aluminum fuselage of the aircraft).

There is no thermite product on earth that is made up of thin sheets of grey layers of iron oxide and red layers of carbon with iron and aluminum oxides. In fact, to burn at high temperatures, thermite must contain large amounts of unoxidized aluminum, rather than aluminum oxide. The researchers did not determine if the aluminum present in their samples was oxidized aluminum, or unoxidized aluminum. The researchers get around the fact that their samples did not look like thermite under the microscope by suggesting that is was a form of "nanotechnology enhanced super-thermite". How could there have been tens of thousands of tons of "nanotechnology enhanced super-thermite" in these buildings?

The researchers also showed that the chips could be ignited, and that they burned at a lower temperature than normal thermite. This is of course not surprising since metals such as aluminum do burn if they are complexed with oxidizing agents, and are heated enough. Rust is an oxidizing agent if heated high enough, and is the oxidizing constituent of many types of thermite.

It is also important to note that thermite is not explosive, and it is difficult to ignite. It also often burns relatively slowly, and not uniformly, making it a very poor choice for building demolition. In building demolition, you need high explosive cutting charges that usually are carefully placed in holes drilled deep into the structures to be severed. Putting a thin coat of thermite onto a structural element, as suggested by the fact that all of the red/grey chips found in the dust samples were very thin flakes, would not result in the reliable cutting of support structures that would be required to bring the WTC down.

It is also interesting that when the red layer of the chips was analyzed by backscattered electron imaging, that the signals for iron and oxygen did not overlap well. If the material was thermite, the iron would be present almost exclusively as iron oxide, and the images for the iron atoms and oxygen atoms should have overlapped very well.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
More and note this part from the last post.
It is also important to note that thermite is not explosive, and it is difficult to ignite. It also often burns relatively slowly, and not uniformly, making it a very poor choice for building demolition. In building demolition, you need high explosive cutting charges that usually are carefully placed in holes drilled deep into the structures to be severed. Putting a thin coat of thermite onto a structural element, as suggested by the fact that all of the red/grey chips found in the dust samples were very thin flakes, would not result in the reliable cutting of support structures that would be required to bring the WTC down.


The two things that most Americans can agree on about 9/11 is that the official story is not credible, and that the Bush administration was hiding something. But that’s where agreement ends. Some people believe that explosive cutting charges were planted in the buildings, and detonated in sequence to bring the buildings down in their own footprints. Others believe that nanotechnology enhanced thermite was packed into the buildings, and that it was ignited to weaken the structures until they fell. Still others, like Dr. Judy Wood, believe that the US used directed energy weapons to destabilize the molecular structure of the buildings, thus causing them to collapse into atomic dust.

There are also those that believe the impact of the planes loaded with jet fuel caused fires that weakened the structures, precipitating a fatal catastrophic collapse.

Until new investigations are opened up, and secret intelligence reports are released to the public, the conspiracy theories will have a life of their own, and will be self perpetuating. The controversy will never cease. But it is clear to me that if the people who don’t believe the official story are willing to accept very poor quality data at face value, without scrutiny, then they are hurting their cause of getting to the bottom of what really happened. Progressives hate it when conservatives use suspect data to support ideas like the denial of global warming, or the “safety” of genetically modified foods. But when it comes to their own pet theories, progressives often turn procrustean, accepting any suspect information because it fits with their preconceived notions.

So was it nanotechnology-enhanced super thermite, or matter-disrupting phasers that brought down the WTC? Until new investigations are undertaken, these will be the stuff of internet legends for years to come.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
So lets recap where we are right now.

Silverstein was in on it-busted
Explosive remnants found on scene,none-busted
thermite found on scene-as a naturally occuring substance-accepted as its naturally occuring-busted
black box and the cockpit door-The data you posted showed it malfunctioned from your own link-busted
Nano or super thermite,doesnt exist-busted

I'll get to the rest later,time for a steak and potato:cool:;-)
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
A radio beacon that is linked to an database that carries specific identification for each particular transponder. Turning it off only takes away identification information, it does not make the craft invisible to radar. Is that close enough?

Not quite, secondary surveillance radar requires transponder information for an aircraft to be seen. Small aircraft without one are invisible to it, which is why the things are mandatory in controlled airspace. Primary radar generates too much clutter increasing the workload of controllers. Whether ATC can switch easily, if at all, from secondary to primary is a question I can't answer with any degree of certainty. Apparently it can be done in some centers and not others.

Are you doubting remote control is possible

No

or that all current aircraft can/do have emergency systems that be directed from the ground no matter what is tried on the craft itself?

Yes

Since I didn't design any of the software I don't know what would have to be done to activate it. In selling the design feature to Boeing it would have been promoted as a safety feature in case the pilots became unable to fly.
Drones are very popular with the military these days, it was no developed in just 10 years.

I can't comment on military applications, but civilian aircraft have no such things now, let alone nine years ago. An autopilot will fly just what was previously programmed into it by the warm bodies sitting in the front seats, some flew past the airports of intended landing, some flew with unconsious pilots until fuel exhaustion, some flew into mountains, some flew into an aerodynamic stall, garbage in - garbage out.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
Not quite, secondary surveillance radar requires transponder information for an aircraft to be seen. Small aircraft without one are invisible to it, which is why the things are mandatory in controlled airspace. Primary radar generates too much clutter increasing the workload of controllers. Whether ATC can switch easily, if at all, from secondary to primary is a question I can't answer with any degree of certainty. Apparently it can be done in some centers and not others.



No



Yes



I can't comment on military applications, but civilian aircraft have no such things now, let alone nine years ago. An autopilot will fly just what was previously programmed into it by the warm bodies sitting in the front seats, some flew past the airports of intended landing, some flew with unconsious pilots until fuel exhaustion, some flew into mountains, some flew into an aerodynamic stall, garbage in - garbage out.

If you read the data he keeps posting it says that the data about the door malfunctioned,yet he keeps posting the data as fact.
that's from his own link,he should maybe try debunking himself.:lol::lol::lol:

Too funny!!!!!!!!!
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Believe it or not back when the Gov and Ind had watchdogs there was less corruption and consumer products lasted longer and were safer because those groups.`
I wouldn't be so quick to bury the subject, more than a million have died because of what happened on 911, that alone makes digging out every tidbit that can be found.
Support for one is automatic support for the other in that no effort has been made to punish anybody or stop an obvious wrong.

Well I wonder how the invasion of Haiti is going. Did they get the two trucks of aid unloaded to the airport yet? Work done I guess it will be shore leave for the 10,000 combat troops.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
Your too funny mhz,you take what you want off an official report,claim it as gospel and ignore the part where it says it had no data and malfunctioned,then you post the link and dont even see you just got had.:lol:
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
In 1996 I was on a flight where the pilot asked over the intercom if anyone wanted to come up to the cockpit. I did. A 0 or 1 indicator was irrelevant.

Whatever procedures were in the manuals, pre-2001, weren't taken as seriously as they are now.

Actually they were taken seriously, but as I said in a previous post, the open door policy was normal and considered good P.R. Wayne Gretzky, among others, occupied the observer seat, (jump seat) on many occasions.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
black box and the cockpit door-The data you posted showed it malfunctioned from your own link-busted
I didn't post any spreadsheet data, I only gave you the link so you could look it up yourself. The cabin door closed at 12:19:07 GMT and it never opened.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
I didn't post any spreadsheet data, I only gave you the link so you could look it up yourself. The cabin door closed at 12:19:07 GMT and it never opened.

I did look at the data,as pointed out a half dozen times now,there is none,it malfunctioned but you glossed over that part.

Your link bud.:roll:
Do I have to post it a 7th time?
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
I remember when we went to mexico via LA and the whole Oiler team was on the plane when we boarded in Calgary and I got pics of the wife,my bud and Gretzky and the pilots all in the cockpit.:cool:

Of course I posted before I read yours :tongue3:, but the observers seat could be occupied by anyone the front end crew admitted and could only be over ruled by Flight Ops management, Transport Canada/FAA. Even the company President couldn't get the seat unless the pilots allowed it or Flt Ops management demanded it.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
Of course I posted before I read yours :tongue3:, but the observers seat could be occupied by anyone the front end crew admitted and could only be over ruled by Flight Ops management, Transport Canada/FAA. Even the company President couldn't get the seat unless the pilots allowed it or Flt Ops management demanded it.

This is the data he's useing but he conveniently misses this part even though I pointed out where it could be found.

Parameters Not Working Or Unconfirmed:lol:

He should be debunking himself.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
I can't comment on military applications, but civilian aircraft have no such things now, let alone nine years ago. An autopilot will fly just what was previously programmed into it by the warm bodies sitting in the front seats, some flew past the airports of intended landing, some flew with unconsious pilots until fuel exhaustion, some flew into mountains, some flew into an aerodynamic stall, garbage in - garbage out.
In it most basic form the auto pilot stays on the same course and speed, or does it make scheduled turns as well? Isn't there also a computer controlled landing option for stormy weather?


If you read the data he keeps posting it says that the data about the door malfunctioned,yet he keeps posting the data as fact.
that's from his own link,he should maybe try debunking himself.:lol::lol::lol:

Too funny!!!!!!!!!
Look it up for yourself, this is the file name you are looking for. It is 200K in size and it is only for the door, the 22mg file has all the flight data that you need to recreate the whole flight.
FLIGHT_DECK_DOOR_GMT.csv door closed @ 12:19:07 GMT That is what a functioning readout would say.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
I wasn't indicating reprogramming the auto pilot.

The easiest way to fly an airplane remotely is through the autopilot, (unless it is specifically built for remote flight, like a drone). The servos, hardware, and software are already in place. But there is no way to discreetly or covertly do this in a commercial aircraft, and trust me, airlines would do it and have computer hacks on the ground flying you to sunny spots in the south with no one on board controlling the airplane. It would certainly be cheaper, but I would think most folks like the fact that someone in control has just as much interest, (and as much to lose) in a safe flight as you do. We haven't gotten there yet, and hopefully never will.