Analysts: More Libyan bloodshed could prompt U.S., NATO intervention

[damngrumpy]

We in the west should sit this one out, it is up to the people to decide the fate
of Gaddafi. We always go rushing in to stop or to take sides in civil conflicts.
I have always said that when people have had enough of the government they
don't want they will in fact take matters into their own hands as they are doing
here. Russian, the Eastern Bloc Countries, now the Middle East, they young
people have had enough and now the day of reckoning is coming for these
mad men and tin horn dictators. Letting the people decide their own destiny
is far better than interfering. Put into today's context, how would Americans
feel if the world was to interfere in their civil war? Same holds true today.
As for the Terrorists being behind this, I don't think it is their plan at all they
may well try to take advantage of the situation after the people gain their freedom.
Should that happen then it is time for NATO or UN Forces to engage the enemy.
Remember also, it is the NATO Forces spearheading the war in Afghanistan
and that is not exactly going well either. We need more resources if we are going
to engage a large scale enemy force and we better start thinking about it.

 

[Trotz]

Libya should be broken up into multiple countries or become a Canton-styled democracy, as there are over 100 tribes in Libya.

 

[Praxius]

..... Should the United States and NATO intervene to stop innocent civilians from being slaughtered by Forces and Mercenaries loyal to Gaddafi?

No, not unless asked by the people. Last I saw, they have things under their control, not just by having most of the country in their hands, but also from many in the military turning against Gad'zeuks and fighting along side the civilians. Eventually Gad will run out of resources and money to fund his mercs, or simply become out gunned and out numbered to the point his mercs will see it as a wise idea to take the money they got and leave.

One possible solution is pressure on Libya's neighbors to step in and put a stop to this but that could spiral into an even bigger mess.

It's none of their business either.

Let the people do this. They're willing and able to do it.... they Want to do this..... they need to do this in order to prove it to themselves that this is a just cause and that they get their country the way they want.... not what other countries want, and I don't see them begging the rest of the world to do the dirty work for them.

It's called a revolution, and in violent revolutions such as these, people will die.

Libya ex-minister forms provisional government
Libya ex-minister forms provisional government - World - CBC News

Libya's former justice minister says he and others are forming a provisional government in Benghazi, the eastern Libyan city at the centre of the uprising against Moammar Gadhafi's 42-year rule.

Mustafa Abdel-Jalil defected to the anti-governement protesters last Monday and spoke out against the killing of demonstrators.

He says a group of both civilian and military people will organize the government and will prepare for elections in three months time......

Sounds like they have things well in hand. And the UN tossed sanctions and travel bans on Gad and his family.... so nothing more needs to be done at this stage..... they'll run out of resources and funds, they can't easily flee the country, and eventually they're going to be captured by the people and strung up.

 

[darkbeaver]

I don't give a **** about Israel or Turkey.

If you have evidence of direct causation of 9/11 by neo-cons, as opposed to the supposition of blowback, I will examine the evidence you present.

The death tolls from a world war compared to marginal conflicts is that of a difference in kind as opposed to magnitude. Watch the future. The level of death is going to increase beyond your imagination.

You are invested in anti-Americanism. But that is the past because Pax Americana is evaporating before our very eyes.

I am invested in the death of leftist ideology in America. That is the real struggle. That ideological world is going to end no matter what.

If you don't care about Israel you 're not going to fix anything about America. Any sane person sooner or later becomes invested in anti imperialism. The death of leftist ideology means the simultaneous death of rightist ideology.

 

[earth_as_one]

Gaddafi's forces failed to take Misurata last night and the rebels shot down an aircraft as it tried to bomb the local radio station:

An aircraft was shot down this morning while it was firing on the local radio station. Protesters captured its crew," Reuters reported, citing a witness, Mohamed.

"Fighting to control the military air base (near Misurata) started last night and is still going on. Gaddafi's forces control only a small part of the base. Protesters control a large part of this base where there is ammunition."

"Misurata is still under the control of the protesters," he said.

Live Blog - Libya Feb 28 | Al Jazeera Blogs

 

[darkbeaver]

Airstrikes in Libya did not take place - Russian military

 

[earth_as_one]

The Russians say the Libya air force did not bomb civilian targets in Benghazi as reported by Aljazeera and the BBC.

 

[EagleSmack]

And what did he do to recieve the Nobel - SFA

Nothing

I believe we had a thread on that previously. You will likely find your answer, there.

Nothing

 

[earth_as_one]

The Libyans did bomb their own weapon depots to prevent weapons from falling into the hands of rebels.

On Monday afternoon, Libyan military jets reportedly bombed a weapons depot somewhere near the opposition-held town of Ajdabiya, a little more than 160km south of Benghazi, the stable heart of the uprising in this country. At a checkpoint on the outskirts of town, with several plumes of smoke rising in different directions along the flat, desert horizon, agitated rebels scurried around confiscated anti-aircraft guns, brandishing pistols and AK-47 assault rifles.
One man, his face strained with emotion, yelled that “many” had been killed in the air strike inside Ajdabiya itself. Others sped down the road away from town, saying the planes had hit the depot. Still more pointed to a plume of smoke to the north and claimed al-Zuwatina, a nearby oil field, had been attacked.
Inside the town, residents said there had been no air strike....
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113234914145322.html

 

[EagleSmack]

Here's the video:
YouTube - Collateral Murder - WikiLeaks

I've notice that same people who supported the unprovoked war crime against the Iraq people, now don't support the use of force when it can be justified to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe.

It wouldn't take much intervention to tip the scales in favor of the people. All it needs is a vote at the UNSC to make it legal. Or we can just eat popcorn and watch the dictator slaughter civilians on the news each night.

BTW, I'm being consistent. I am against soldiers slaughtering innocent civilians. I never said I was against the use of force to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe. I'm against the use of force to create a humanitarian catastrophe.

We had a whole thread on this. The only reason why people flipped was because reporters "imbedded" themselves with insurgents and got killed in the process. Ongoing firefight, weapons clearly seen. Good shooting.

9/11 was designed and executed by neo conservatives.

How exactly?

 

[earth_as_one]

We had a whole thread on this. The only reason why people flipped was because reporters "imbedded" themselves with insurgents and got killed in the process. Ongoing firefight, weapons clearly seen. Good shooting.

That's one perception of this story.
Video shows death of 2 Reuters employees in Baghdad attack - washingtonpost.com

Here's another:

The following is the text of an email from Reuters Editor-in-Chief David Schlesinger:

The video of our colleagues, Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh, being killed in Iraq in 2007 was difficult and disturbing to watch but also important to watch...

Video of our colleagues’ death in Iraq | Reuters Editors | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

I was just providing the link to the video. I hadn't researched it much at the time I posted. I assumed it was something like Haditha.

I am now aware a battle was raging in the area and mistakes was made by the American soldiers and the reporters. I'm not convinced these guys were embedded with the enemy. Its normal for reporters to travel with armed escorts and I'd say they walked into bad situation at the wrong time. The camera equipment should have been a clue they were reporters, but in the heat of battle their equipment was misidentified as arms. Its clear these Americans were following procedures designed to avoid such mistakes... but its a war... bad stuff happens.

I don't blame the Americans for what happened in this incident.

 

[Colpy]

No, not unless asked by the people. Last I saw, they have things under their control, not just by having most of the country in their hands, but also from many in the military turning against Gad'zeuks and fighting along side the civilians. Eventually Gad will run out of resources and money to fund his mercs, or simply become out gunned and out numbered to the point his mercs will see it as a wise idea to take the money they got and leave.



It's none of their business either.

Let the people do this. They're willing and able to do it.... they Want to do this..... they need to do this in order to prove it to themselves that this is a just cause and that they get their country the way they want.... not what other countries want, and I don't see them begging the rest of the world to do the dirty work for them.

It's called a revolution, and in violent revolutions such as these, people will die.

Libya ex-minister forms provisional government
Libya ex-minister forms provisional government - World - CBC News



Sounds like they have things well in hand. And the UN tossed sanctions and travel bans on Gad and his family.... so nothing more needs to be done at this stage..... they'll run out of resources and funds, they can't easily flee the country, and eventually they're going to be captured by the people and strung up.

Well, I agree with some....

I was listening to an interview on CBC with supporters of the rebellion.....and they did NOT want intervention. To me, that means no boots on the ground....full stop.

However, an imposed no fly zone, enforced by a US carrier in the Mediterranean Sea, would help without putting troops in, and would provide valuable target practice for Marine aviators.....

Rebellions are fine, but if armored units stay loyal to the Libya's First Looney, well, there could be a serious problem. Perhaps blowing the heck out of a few tanks would help as well.

But no way should foreign troops enter the country, unless clearly invited by a leadership with a mandate from the people.

 

[earth_as_one]

The Libyans must settle this themselves. Outside interference should be limited to:

No Fly Zone for Libyan military aircraft.
Full arms embargo.
Freeze all Libyan government assets and hold in trust.
Foreign military activity on the ground restricted to guarding convoys of humanitarian food and medical aid.

 

[EagleSmack]

Well, I agree with some....

I was listening to an interview on CBC with supporters of the rebellion.....and they did NOT want intervention. To me, that means no boots on the ground....full stop.

That is true Colpy. I am hearing that as well.

About a week ago members of the "rebellion" if we can call it that wanted NO INTERVENTION at all. They wanted to do it and felt confident they could.

However, this morning I heard a Libyan Doctor saying they did not want foreign troops on the ground but wanted foreign nations to start supplying them with materials and enforcing a no fly zone. In other words, they want air cover. Overthrowing Quadaffi may be more difficult than they thought.

However, an imposed no fly zone, enforced by a US carrier in the Mediterranean Sea, would help without putting troops in, and would provide valuable target practice for Marine aviators.....

I'm sorry. I feel it is time to sit out this one. If other nations want a go at it, bien.

Rebellions are fine, but if armored units stay loyal to the Libya's First Looney, well, there could be a serious problem.

Agreed. And that is exactly what is happening. Army units are pushing east... slowly but surely.

Perhaps blowing the heck out of a few tanks would help as well.

It would help out a lot. Particularly in desert warfare.

But the first time US Navy F-18's demolish an armored column, and photos of charred Libyan soldiers at the wheels of their trucks roll out on Al Jezzerra...

...well here we go again...

The Libyans must settle this themselves. Outside interference should be limited to:

No Fly Zone for Libyan military aircraft.
Full arms embargo.
Freeze all Libyan government assets and hold in trust.
Foreign military activity on the ground restricted to guarding convoys of humanitarian food and medical aid.

That is a lot of intervention and hardly allowing Libyans to settle it themselves.

In fact... wouldn't you call even this intervention "illegal"? Or is it only Iraq that was illegal?

 

[earth_as_one]

I see no reason for the Americans to enforce a no fly zone. The Europeans should handle this one. They can use Malta as a base. Any actions MUST be approved by the UNSC... I doubt any permanent member would veto a request by the Europeans to intervene for humanitarian reasons.

...That is a lot of intervention and hardly allowing Libyans to settle it themselves.

In fact... wouldn't you call even this intervention "illegal"? Or is it only Iraq that was illegal?

It would be illegal if not approved by the UNSC. The UNSC has a mandate to authorize force to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe...

I'm in favor of intervening only to deliver humanitarian aid and reduce the level of lethal violence, not determine the outcome or invade and occupy.

 

[EagleSmack]

I see no reason for the Americans to enforce a no fly zone.

Good... nor do I.

The Europeans should handle this one. They can use Malta as a base. Any actions MUST be approved by the UNSC... I doubt any permanent member would veto a request by the Europeans to intervene for humanitarian reasons.

If they want to handle it, they should.

It would be illegal if not approved by the UNSC. The UNSC has a mandate to authorize force to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe...

The UN has a mandate to prevent humanitarian catastrophies? They aren't very succesful at that.

I'm in favor of intervening only to deliver humanitarian aid and reduce the level of lethal violence, not determine the outcome or invade and occupy.

How do you plan on reducing the level of violence with simply humanitarian aid?

 

[Colpy]

That is true Colpy. I am hearing that as well.

About a week ago members of the "rebellion" if we can call it that wanted NO INTERVENTION at all. They wanted to do it and felt confident they could.

However, this morning I heard a Libyan Doctor saying they did not want foreign troops on the ground but wanted foreign nations to start supplying them with materials and enforcing a no fly zone. In other words, they want air cover. Overthrowing Quadaffi may be more difficult than they thought.




I'm sorry. I feel it is time to sit out this one. If other nations want a go at it, bien.



Agreed. And that is exactly what is happening. Army units are pushing east... slowly but surely.



It would help out a lot. Particularly in desert warfare.

But the first time US Navy F-18's demolish an armored column, and photos of charred Libyan soldiers at the wheels of their trucks roll out on Al Jezzerra...

...well here we go again...



That is a lot of intervention and hardly allowing Libyans to settle it themselves.

In fact... wouldn't you call even this intervention "illegal"? Or is it only Iraq that was illegal?

I agree with you, unfortunately.....with US involvement it would take the lefties a full millisecond to go from "the duty to protect" to "no blood for oil".

Idiots.

I see no reason for the Americans to enforce a no fly zone. The Europeans should handle this one. They can use Malta as a base. Any actions MUST be approved by the UNSC... I doubt any permanent member would veto a request by the Europeans to intervene for humanitarian reasons.



It would be illegal if not approved by the UNSC. The UNSC has a mandate to authorize force to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe...

I'm in favor of intervening only to deliver humanitarian aid and reduce the level of lethal violence, not determine the outcome or invade and occupy.

Well, if you are waiting for the Euro-weenies (excluding Great Britain, BTW) to do anything.....good luck.

You will be able to walk across Libya barefoot stepping from corpse to corpse of Libyan rebels without having to worry yourself about getting sand betwixt your toes before that useless bunch of feeble-brained do-nothings so much as issue a strongly-worded memo.

The UN??? You can't be serious. They can't even agree to throw Libya off the Human Rights Council.....
They are probably the ONLY institution more useless than the aforementioned Euro-weenie convention known as the EU.
ROTFLMAO.

When REALITY strikes, International Law means NOTHING.

About time you figured that out.

 

[darkbeaver]

Well, I agree with some....

I was listening to an interview on CBC with supporters of the rebellion.....and they did NOT want intervention. To me, that means no boots on the ground....full stop.

However, an imposed no fly zone, enforced by a US carrier in the Mediterranean Sea, would help without putting troops in, and would provide valuable target practice for Marine aviators.....

Rebellions are fine, but if armored units stay loyal to the Libya's First Looney, well, there could be a serious problem. Perhaps blowing the heck out of a few tanks would help as well.

But no way should foreign troops enter the country, unless clearly invited by a leadership with a mandate from the people.

Speaking of Looney, on the one hand it's no way to boots on the ground on the other it's total air superiority. I suppose the anti tank rounds won't be entering the country. Is it just a matter of time before the (carrier induced ) people mandate carrier assisted occupation? The aircraft carrier and diplomacy were made for each other.

 

[EagleSmack]

I agree with you, unfortunately.....with US involvement it would take the lefties a full millisecond to go from "the duty to protect" to "no blood for oil".

Idiots.

In addition, I see no difference whatsoever between Quaddaffi and Saddam Hussein. Except that Saddam was a lot more brutal. Quaddaffi hasn't used the gas yet.

Well, if you are waiting for the Euro-weenies (excluding Great Britain, BTW) to do anything.....good luck.

No question. The only ones that really pitch in and make a difference are the Anglo-Allies. That is when they want to make a difference.

This is why I laugh a bit when they say nations like Norway and Sweeden (and Luxemborg) contribute more to foreign aid. So lets see these nations get their Euro Fighters in the air and sustain a CAP over Libya.

You will be able to walk across Libya barefoot stepping from corpse to corpse of Libyan rebels without having to worry yourself about getting sand betwixt your toes before that useless bunch of feeble-brained do-nothings so much as issue a strongly-worded memo.

Oh gosh. If Quadaffi wins this rebellion there will be a blood bath. He will show them no mercy.

 

[darkbeaver]

I just saw a staged You Tube air raid on CNN, there was no shot of a plane, we watched an atiiaircraft gun being pulled accross a parking lot somewhere, supposidly fireing at an aircraft the video guy didn't bother to point at shoot.