Zimbabwe...no end to the power struggle!

MikeyDB

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Colpy

How very Canadian.... a discussion wherein your rationale for worshiping the United States boils down to a comparison of lesser and greater evils....

This great democracy of the Americans embraced slavery....traded people like "goods"....Wh what's the point.... Go love the Americans Colpy. You've made your position very clear on several issues ....Israel and America can do nothing wrong have never done anything wrong and whomever exhibits the temerity to question that chant ....is utterly wrong...."off their meds" or otherwise deserving of your contempt and disdain.

Have a nice day.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Zzarchov

It's the numbers for one thing Zzarchov...what nation spends more money on weapons than all others....COMBINED! What nation has military installations ALL OVER THE WORLD....

The list of what I call abnormalities but which no doubt you and Colpy would call "normal" goes on for some time but the essential thing to think about is that even after spending all this loot and planting America's flag all over the planet...what do we have?

We have a planet consumed by consumerism....we have a planet prepared to do whatever's necessary in the name of expediency but only if there are "interests" involved in the mix.....oil...resouces.....markets.... Who has done more to turn the world into one gigantic sweatshop than has the United States of America?


Ok, lets first off solve some things,

1.) How much money they spend needs to be taken with a grain of salt, alot of that is simple profiteering (the $25 hammer), alot is wages (an American soldier makes more than entire platoons in most countries) and a vast majority is research. Which while still military, does usually bleed into civilian tech.

Either way the US really isn't the be all end all of violence. Millions of soldiers fight and die over causes unrelated to the USA. The world existed before America and had plenty of its own wars.

2.) I think you are really decrying human behaviour, something that isn't any new change. People consume materials and reproduce. Its what we (and every) animal does.

3.) I can think of many nations that made the world into sweatshops more than the USA. China, the USSR, India...

Does the USA have an addiction to cheap crap? Oh sure. But who is responsible for the brutal drug regimes in South America? The South American Drug Lords or the High School student who thinks getting high is fun? Sure the high school student creates a market, but no one forced Mr.Escobar to be such a brutal despot in his quest for money.


I have no problem with the concept of corruption and evil in the USA, but this thought that every other nation in the world is populated by angels who wish to drive their economies with the powers of love and imagination, paving their roads with rainbows is just tripe.
 

Colpy

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Colpy

How very Canadian.... a discussion wherein your rationale for worshiping the United States boils down to a comparison of lesser and greater evils....

This great democracy of the Americans embraced slavery....traded people like "goods"....Wh what's the point.... Go love the Americans Colpy. You've made your position very clear on several issues ....Israel and America can do nothing wrong have never done anything wrong and whomever exhibits the temerity to question that chant ....is utterly wrong...."off their meds" or otherwise deserving of your contempt and disdain.

Have a nice day.

Excuse me?

just a point: Every people on earth at one time embraced slavery.

Islam still does.

as do the Chinese.

Want to make that comparison again?
 

MikeyDB

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Zzarchov

I'd like anyone to compare the amount of wealth the extended periods of stability and the freedom from invasion and military conflict experienced by the United States of America to any other nation on earth. With an enormous geographical foundation, the country of the United States has resource wealth in abundance....but according to history...not enough to satisfy Americans. While Europe and much of the world has experienced decades of war and destruction that devastated infrastructures and populations the United States has had a far greater opportunity to manage and sculpt its culture and its people into something different. Instead of looking at each other like every human being is equal and just as entitled to opportunity and a decent quality of life...America has been just as guilty as any other nation on earth in promulgating hatred and practicing politics and militarism to the end of Americanism. With the best chance of building a society of human beings prepared to participate in the community of mankind and demonstrate to the world that militarism violence and greed are concepts evolving out of hatred and fear America conditioned its people to believe that they were above everyone and everyone else's position and entitlement. They have failed to address what Colpy points out is the propensity to slavery as practiced by many nations and cultures and the seeds of these poor choices continues to embroil the people of the United States in the twenty-first century. Americans have gone no where! If you listen to the propaganda of the American elite you'll hear them patting themselves on the back continually for American predominance in technology and particular space exploration... the truth is that while Americans are more than prepared to take credit for everything...it was Germans and Englishmen and Jews and many many nationalities that brought their skills and efforts to America. An American owes his Americanism to nationalities and cultures that the average American is only vaguely aware of as existing!

Instead of feedig the world and making that technology available to everyone who needs it...America finds any way it can to "profit". The same sentiment that even after having witnessed the atrocity of human slavery embraced the idea as something that would bring "profit" before acknowledging the evil of the practice. It may be and is likely impossible for anyone I've encountered so far here at CC to conseptualize the enormity of the possibilities and potential ....lost.

America and Americans have given themselves', their culture their government and their social institutions over...entirely to the metric of "profit". And we see time and time again how the pusuit of "profit" by America includes the appropriateness of militarism and poliferation of weapons.

These people don't want peace....They want everything that belongs to everyone else and are prepared to take what they want by violence. Now we could be satisfied with the ideology of Nazii Germany and their pal El Duce as grounds for arriving at a conclusion of definition with respect to fascism..... But the fascism of the politics of greed are far more insidious and the preparedness to lie to everyone including the people of their own nation....who are being sent to war on the basis of a lie and misdirection....a preparedness to paint everyone and anyone who doesn't succumb to the mantra of "American Interests".... as an evil-doer and a "threat" is what America wanted and what it got.

More power to those who'd fullfill Americas wishes.
 

Colpy

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MUGABE

ZIMBABWE

NOT the USA, is the subject of this thread.

If you want to bash the USA, there are approximately 6,438 threads specifically for that purpose.

To hijack EVERY thread to that purpose is not only impolite, it displays an obsession that says nothing good about the obsessor's mental health.

Geezus!
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Since the Americans are the self imposed world police I think it is valid to bring them into this.

Perhaps if oil was involved they would be slightly more concerned about Zimbabwe. Resources, not people, are the main concern of greedy over fed America.
 

Zzarchov

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Zzarchov
My text in blue because its easier than altering quote boxes
I'd like anyone to compare the amount of wealth the extended periods of stability and the freedom from invasion and military conflict experienced by the United States of America to any other nation on earth
Freedom from conflict ignores all the conflicts on its own soil it has had. Wars with Britain, Mexico, Spain, a slew of Amerind nations, hell itself.
. With an enormous geographical foundation, the country of the United States has resource wealth in abundance....but according to history...not enough to satisfy Americans.
The same is true of European nations, of African Nations, or Arabian Nations, of Russia especially...

While Europe and much of the world has experienced decades of war and destruction that devastated infrastructures and populations the United States has had a far greater opportunity to manage and sculpt its culture and its people into something different.

And America did, by getting involved in those wars, it managed to keep the wars from its own shores. Its not some "wierd coincidence" that the two happened. Isolationism doesn't work.

I also find your expectation that American's aren't humans like every other human on the planet sad. People are people, there is no master race.

Instead of looking at each other like every human being is equal and just as entitled to opportunity and a decent quality of life...America has been just as guilty as any other nation on earth in promulgating hatred and practicing politics and militarism to the end of Americanism.

So... your logic is instead of treating everyone as equal, they act equal to everyone else? Thats a logical fault on your end.


With the best chance of building a society of human beings prepared to participate in the community of mankind and demonstrate to the world that militarism violence and greed are concepts evolving out of hatred and fear America conditioned its people to believe that they were above everyone and everyone else's position and entitlement. They have failed to address what Colpy points out is the propensity to slavery as practiced by many nations and cultures and the seeds of these poor choices continues to embroil the people of the United States in the twenty-first century. Americans have gone no where! If you listen to the propaganda of the American elite you'll hear them patting themselves on the back continually for American predominance in technology and particular space exploration... the truth is that while Americans are more than prepared to take credit for everything...it was Germans and Englishmen and Jews and many many nationalities that brought their skills and efforts to America. An American owes his Americanism to nationalities and cultures that the average American is only vaguely aware of as existing!

I think thats your problem, you don't understand what American culture is. It is the culture of the melting pot. When other people left their own cultures and nations to become American, that is the American strength.

Instead of feedig the world and making that technology available to everyone who needs it...America finds any way it can to "profit".

And why shouldn't America act in the same way as everyone else? Why should America cripple itself and be forced to give charity to those who give no Charity back? Why should America treat other peoples different than it treats it own? Why are other people somehow less able to feed themselves or invent their own discoveries? Its simply pretending the rest of the world are subhuman and less intelligent and need America to act as a nanny to them.

The same sentiment that even after having witnessed the atrocity of human slavery embraced the idea as something that would bring "profit" before acknowledging the evil of the practice. It may be and is likely impossible for anyone I've encountered so far here at CC to conseptualize the enormity of the possibilities and potential ....lost.

The atrocity of human slavery? Slavery is something that predated America and will outlast America and still goes on today, in many of those countries you say America should feed and give technology too. America ended slavery in its nation, the hands of any American alive today are clean from deeds of that era.

America and Americans have given themselves', their culture their government and their social institutions over...entirely to the metric of "profit". And we see time and time again how the pusuit of "profit" by America includes the appropriateness of militarism and poliferation of weapons.

Thats Human culture. It exists far outside of America, its not a uniquely American ideal and all peoples that are capable of militarism pursue it. Canada didn't end up fighting the Boers out of a desire to spread love.

These people don't want peace....
Well they certainly don't want to be fighting, else there would be a draft.

They want everything that belongs to everyone else and are prepared to take what they want by violence.
Never seen any proof of that in the Modern Era, violence is not an efficient way to get wealth, trade is. Violence begets more violence, it does not beget more money. That is one of the reasons America succeeds where Colonial Empires failed.

Now we could be satisfied with the ideology of Nazii Germany and their pal El Duce as grounds for arriving at a conclusion of definition with respect to fascism..... But the fascism of the politics of greed are far more insidious and the preparedness to lie to everyone including the people of their own nation....who are being sent to war on the basis of a lie and misdirection....a preparedness to paint everyone and anyone who doesn't succumb to the mantra of "American Interests".... as an evil-doer and a "threat" is what America wanted and what it got.

*sigh*
More power to those who'd fullfill Americas wishes.


yep, more to em
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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I don't live in the USA because I'm a Canadian........and usually extremely proud of the fact. There are a number of things in the US culture that drive me nuts........but that does not make the,m our enemy. We come from common stock, we share the same values, no two nations on earth are closer........I just know who my friends are. The fact we live in the same house (North America) makes dealing with their foibles irritating at times, but THANK GOD they are the power, not China, Russia....etc.

We come from common stock! Chicken or beef? Values? Friends? God? When was the last time you had your head flushed?
 

dancing-loon

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Oct 8, 2007
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Mugabe Is Sworn In for 6th Term After Discredited Vote

Robert Mugabe, the runaway winner in a one-horse race, was quickly inaugurated Sunday as president of Zimbabwe after a runoff election on Friday. His opponent had already dropped out because state-sponsored enforcers were beating and killing his followers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/wo...hp&oref=slogin
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Amazing, how fast the ballots got counted this time!!:roll:
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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" ... better off under Ian Smith ... "

I'm not sure Zimbabweans want another 8 years of civil war such as that imposed by Smith. But, yes, reform is needed and soon!
 

wallyj

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May 7, 2006
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OMG,I am shocked by the anti-american posts in this thread.Colby is right,this is about Mugabe and those that project Bush into it are deranged. Mugabe,possibly with the best interests of the people at heart,took the farms that belonged to the whites and turned them over to friends and family. Unfortunately,the new 'owners' knew beans about farming. They went for the quick fix and sold off the equipment. Now,the people that had little ,soon had nothing. If any white leader did the same they would be condemned,and rightfully so. But the UN rewarded Mugabe and made him chairman of the committee on sustainable development.What a sad joke. Zimbabwe is a total mess,but do not blame it on the states.
 

data

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Jan 24, 2008
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Zimbabwe: National Socialism - African version

MUGABE

ZIMBABWE

NOT the USA, is the subject of this thread.

If you want to bash the USA, there are approximately 6,438 threads specifically for that purpose.

To hijack EVERY thread to that purpose is not only impolite, it displays an obsession that says nothing good about the obsessor's mental health.

Geezus!
Thank you, here I must agree with you.
this is about Mugabe and those that project Bush into it are deranged.
Not complete. What made Bush jr. to speak out recently against Mugabe? I assume the claim of Mugabe, that only God can remove him from the presidential office. Since his junta (ZANU factions) insisted, that he shall remain their big stage figure, he considers himself as deputy of God on earth, Jesuit style. Before he considered himself only as deputy of God for Zimbabwe, since God (then UK M5/6) allowed him to rig the first elections successfull, what made him head of state in 1980 (deputy of God in earthly matters according to Jesuit believes).
That contradicts sharply with the multiple expessed believes of Bush jr., that he is deputy of God on earth (since he was reborn and left the bottle). No wonder, that president Bush awaked and spoke out against this Mugabe guy of somwhere in the deep, black Africa.

BBC showed last wednesday a ZANU rally poster in Harare: "We did it in 1980, we will do it again." And they did it again since the only half rigged March elections with just some slight modifications. The re-run preparing killing, torture and intimidation policy was still the same. The main difference is, that UK does no longer consider Mugabe as "their" thug. They consider him as a thug, who run out of their control (like Osama Bin Laden run out of control from CIA and US republicans - to some extend).
Mugabe,possibly with the best interests of the people at heart,took the farms that belonged to the whites and turned them over to friends and family. Unfortunately,the new 'owners' knew beans about farming. They went for the quick fix and sold off the equipment. Now,the people that had little ,soon had nothing. If any white leader did the same they would be condemned,and rightfully so. But the UN rewarded Mugabe and made him chairman of the committee on sustainable development.
What shall mean this ZANU propaganda copy from you? It reminds me of Germans (senior generation), who repeated always: "If that (concentration camps were in fact no recreation camps) the leader (Hitler) would have known...", meaning there would have been no atrocities allowed by minor state officers to demolish the exccellent reputaton of their beloved, big leader in the free world (of conservatives and nationalists). Same was said about Stalin inside the communist block (mirror image).
 

dancing-loon

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Well, Mugabe doesn't seem to care about all the threats of sanctions, he went off today to Egypt for the summit meeting of the leaders of the African Union.
Instead of criticizing him it is expected they will urge him to a power sharing government.

Mugabe has threatened to point fingers at other African leaders if they were to speak out against him as many have worse election records.

Sharp criticism came from the UN, and France' foreign minister said his country had decided Mugabe's government was illegitimate and his re-election a "farce, a criminal electoral comedy".

I'm aware that some members don't like bringing the US into this debate, but I'll stick my neck out anyway and let you read a response from Mr. Bush:
U.S. President George W. Bush has said the U.S. was working on ways to further punish Mugabe and his allies. That could mean steps against his government as well as additional restrictions on the travel and financial activities of Mugabe supporters. The U.S. has financial and travel penalties in place against more than 170 citizens and entities with ties to Mr. Mugabe, the White House says. Mr. Bush also wants the UN Security Council to impose an arms embargo on Zimbabwe as well as travel bans on Zimbabwe government officials.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../BNStory/Front
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Do you think these condemnations and punishments are fair? In many regions of Africa Mugabe is seen as the Hero who got rid of colonialism in his country. Here is a thought or two from the TimesOnLine:
Beware the widely held opinion that all we need is Robert Mugabe's head on a stick. In Iraq we called this the decapitation strategy, and duly secured the required head - Saddam's - on the right stick. Then it all went wrong. The ingredients necessary for a liberal democracy were not, it turned out, there. Why should things be different in Africa? Not even the most hot-headed interventionist (I assume) is seriously proposing a unilateral British invasion; and not many propose invasion by a coalition of Western powers. It should anyway be doubted whether this would be militarily possible. Zimbabwe is a landlocked country and the active co-operation of her neighbours should be key to any kind of occupation, however temporary. That being so, it would make more political sense for the intervention to be African-led, or at least appear to be so, by one or more of her neighbours.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article4228082.ece
 

MikeyDB

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Despite the impact of one nation on the whole of the earths seperate national economies....on the impact of one nation on the "rights" of one society or another..."Take from this one and give to this one..." Despite the impact of this one culture this one society on the whole world....one dare not name the elephant in the room.

Hold onto your fantasies robustly, it what passes for considered thought and rational judgment for most of you.
 

amagqira

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Oct 15, 2006
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WTF would any western nation go into africa as a peace keeping force, the road in africa is strewn with the aftermath of good intentions, even Canada did not escape - Somaliland.

IMHO if Zimbabweans want their freedom from Mugabe, they are going to have to fight for it and if necessary die for it.
 

dancing-loon

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WTF would any western nation go into africa as a peace keeping force, the road in africa is strewn with the aftermath of good intentions, even Canada did not escape - Somaliland.

IMHO if Zimbabweans want their freedom from Mugabe, they are going to have to fight for it and if necessary die for it.
I could almost agree with you, but somehow one cannot stand by and let this brutal dictator keep on disregarding human life in his own country.
Perhaps we have become so conditioned over the years, when the Americans keep interfering with brutal dictators, that we think something ought to be done to stop this power maniac from destroying Zimbabwe even further.
 

MikeyDB

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Good day to you Dancing_Loon!

:)

When we give the choice of whether to act or not to act...in the interests of somone else...we supplant their self-determination and pride and values and everything that makes them who they are.....with our own. We sat by as the United Nations legitimized the state of Israel and the world's been livingwith this seething pustule since. We don't need more violence and mayhem in the world we need peace. When a species goes extinct a very few human beings raise the alarm and the vast majority hang onto their apathy and their complacency.... Why shouldn't nature be allowed to take its course?

If we examine the contributing elements...large numbers of blacks taken from Africa to live as slaves ....Imperial monarchies usurping the rights of black people to live their lives and conduct their societies the way they want.... The appetites of petroleum junkies that creates a climate of artificial wealth and prosperity for the few while the vast majority suffer oppression hunger and disease.....

What do we owe these people in the final analysis?
 

dancing-loon

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Good day to you Dancing_Loon!
Good Evening, dear Mikey;
did you have a nice day? I hope so.
When we give the choice of whether to act or not to act...in the interests of somone else...we supplant their self-determination and pride and values and everything that makes them who they are.....with our own.
A wise observation indeed. I have already come halfway around, and have come to realize that the people of Zimbabwe have to free themselves from Mugabe. When big white brother always interferes, they come to rely on outside help.
We sat by as the United Nations legitimized the state of Israel, and the world's been living with this seething pustule since.
Yes, and further nursing and pampering has made that pustule into a boil!:lol:
We don't need more violence and mayhem in the world, we need peace.
Amen to that! Perhaps after the next big war we will have a millenium of utter peace and harmony on earth!
When a species goes extinct, a very few human beings raise the alarm and the vast majority hang onto their apathy and their complacency.... Why shouldn't nature be allowed to take its course?
Nature will always take care of itself. It is much wiser than all of humanity combined. Nature will even throw us off if necessary. But, Mikey, I DO care about endangered animals, the polar bears for instance, but I get laughed at, ridiculed and even attacked as racist.
If we examine the contributing elements...large numbers of blacks taken from Africa to live as slaves ....Imperial monarchies usurping the rights of black people to live their lives and conduct their societies the way they want.... The appetites of petroleum junkies that creates a climate of artificial wealth and prosperity for the few while the vast majority suffer oppression, hunger, and disease.....
I know! It was such a brutal crime, and they have not been compensated to this day. But, Mikey, who knows who the present Blacks were before? I have often thought about the starving Aetheopians as perhaps fat, greedy white people from a previous incarnation, learning a lesson now. Nature always seeks to restore balance.
What do we owe these people in the final analysis?
What do I owe the Natives of Canada? Should I give all my posessions to them and go back to Germany? I don't see anybody else doing that so, must I make a start, set an example? My children and grandchildren would also have to leave. No, there has to be another way to make up for my sin. Maybe I could work as a servant in a Native household, for free, of course.;-)