Would Canada allow 12 million illegal Americans to stay?

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
1,535
41
48
Calgary, Alberta
Eaglesmack:

Your own post proves the contrary argument - you defeat your own position. Read it again carefully and you might notice how.

Pangloss
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
So you think the producers will take it on the chin when they have to pay wages and benefits to workers rather than putting prices up?

Right now in the US and Canada, there are producers who pay fairly. And they sell their produce for roughly the same price as those who pay migrant workers mere pennies in comparison. If the low paying producers had to switch over to fair pay, it would eat into their profit margins, but, the market bears fair pay just fine.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Right now in the US and Canada, there are producers who pay fairly. And they sell their produce for roughly the same price as those who pay migrant workers mere pennies in comparison. If the low paying producers had to switch over to fair pay, it would eat into their profit margins, but, the market bears fair pay just fine.

I wonder if there is some list so people can tell which is which. When I buy my groceries, I honestly have very little knowledge about where exactly the produce comes from and how much they pay their workers.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
I wonder if there is some list so people can tell which is which. When I buy my groceries, I honestly have very little knowledge about where exactly the produce comes from and how much they pay their workers.

The best way is to ask around at your local garden markets.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
Right now in the US and Canada, there are producers who pay fairly. And they sell their produce for roughly the same price as those who pay migrant workers mere pennies in comparison. If the low paying producers had to switch over to fair pay, it would eat into their profit margins, but, the market bears fair pay just fine.

Don't you think that those who were forced to compete on an uneven playing field would reset pricing index once the field was leveled and some suppliers left the business?
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Don't you think that those who were forced to compete on an uneven playing field would reset pricing index once the field was leveled and some suppliers left the business?

No, I don't think they would. The markets are still competetive. The balancing act of quality, quanitity, price, and profit isn't going to simply disappear.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Not entirely yet.

See, I hear a lot of complaining about gas prices, but, the market hasn't slowed because of it. So, are prices really too high? That's the true test of any product pricing.

Start paying proper wages, and sure, prices of produce might rise, but, it will self correct when people stop buying so much of it. Prices will drop, and producers will go back to working on tighter margins. Or, it won't self correct, because it will still be a fair price and fit into the economy.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
The idea that prices will go up if owners don't hire illegal aliens is hog wash. That is just a scare tactic because all they want to do is have a higher profit margin. By hiring illegal workers simply means that they don't have to follow the law with these people as they have no voice. They pay them at their leisure, dock them, abuse them, and threaten to report them to Immigration Officials if they complain. When they get caught they spout off on how the prices will have to go up now that they have been busted for breaking the law.

You're food prices would definitely go higher. Food production is a low margin business. It is fiercely competitive and commoditized.

Make whatever argument you wish about the treatment of illegals, but don't fool yourself into thinking you wouldn't pay more. That is wrong.
 

FUBAR

Electoral Member
May 14, 2007
249
6
18
I find it really amazing that the same peoplewho moan about illegals also moan about high food prices. How if any company found employing illegal aliens will be shut down and it's assets sold to the highest bidder, would that stop them being hired............
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
So lets use this arguement for everything?

How about we scrap minimum wage and see how long before our consumerist culture self-cannablizes itself, (hint its fast).

If you think the minimum wage is too high, then tell the government the minimum wage needs to be lower. If food prices go up, then you might get support, otherwise, you'll probably just get EVEN MORE SUBSIDIES.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
If American want cheap labor for farming why not give temporary work visa's for people who apply legally and will pay taxes? The US really does need to improve border security and start cracking down on companies that hire illegals. Amnesty can come once the flow of illegals stops. Until then it is only encouragement.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
It is about money but look at the money it is costing the U.S. taxpayer .... I snitched this from another site

From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" *****s and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it. Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know. CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. there is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once

qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayer's also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people. THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOR EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'
__________________

I don't get this. This sounds more Socialists then Canada. I thought American's were more right wing. No wonder the Californian prison system is collapsing.
 

normbc9

Electoral Member
Nov 23, 2006
483
14
18
California
s243a,
Well stated. While retired I still volunteer to schedule our local fire service Advanced life Support service ambulances and one private Medical specialty helicopter. Mos=t of us pay for servcies rendered. Not the illegals. the bill is sent to the state government who pays 25% of it with taxpayer dollars. One helicopter ride to the local trauma center is about $9,000. and the taxpayer gets stuck with it i=f the illegals are involved. We live in a ag-industry area so you know that about 50% of the calls are paid for with taxpayers dollars. You should see the mess the automobile insurance industry is in here too. No license, no insurance and no way to pay so the real costs are passed on to every rate payer.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
s243a,
Well stated. While retired I still volunteer to schedule our local fire service Advanced life Support service ambulances and one private Medical specialty helicopter. Mos=t of us pay for servcies rendered. Not the illegals. the bill is sent to the state government who pays 25% of it with taxpayer dollars. One helicopter ride to the local trauma center is about $9,000. and the taxpayer gets stuck with it i=f the illegals are involved. We live in a ag-industry area so you know that about 50% of the calls are paid for with taxpayers dollars. You should see the mess the automobile insurance industry is in here too. No license, no insurance and no way to pay so the real costs are passed on to every rate payer.

Why is it that California seems to be paying for the brunt of the cost of illegal immigrants well at the same time seems to be the strongest advocate of illegal immigration? I am sure you heard recently that the Mayor of San Francisco declared California a Sanctuary city.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/22/BAGADPDGNF18.DTL
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Why is it that California seems to be paying for the brunt of the cost of illegal immigrants well at the same time seems to be the strongest advocate of illegal immigration? I am sure you heard recently that the Mayor of San Francisco declared California a Sanctuary city.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/22/BAGADPDGNF18.DTLhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/22/BAGADPDGNF18.DTLhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/22/BAGADPDGNF18.DTL

Trust me, there are a lot of people here who do not favor illegal immigrants in any way. LOTS!!!
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
So you think the producers will take it on the chin when they have to pay wages and benefits to workers rather than putting prices up?

There is not just one bean or tomato farm. If one producer wants to jack prices of produce up in protest then people will buy elsewhere. Nobody is going to spend 2 dollars on a tomato and producers know that. The producers will have to cut their profit margin and that is that.