Would Canada allow 12 million illegal Americans to stay?

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
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Great Satan
Just wondering?

Becasue you know we have a situation going on down here where our wonderful leader, El Presidente Jorge wants to just say "screw the immigration laws on the books now" and let's just make an entirely new set of them.

There are thousands if not millions of people who have come to the U.S. legally and they are all getting a boot to the face if the 12 million illegal immigrants here now are allowed (indeed, rewarded) to stay here.

"Well", you say, "If the laws you have now aren't working, why not get new ones?"

Well because, his alcoholic-ness, Senator "Chappaquidick" Kennedy is the one who came up with the bad laws in the 1960's, and he is once again the foremost schmuck drafting the new amnesty bills.

And if we are all really honest with ourselves, we know that neither the democrats or the republican turncoats don't give a fig about the humanitarian aspect of this entire mess, this is all about getting minority votes.

So, what kind of uproar would there be in Canada if you were dealing with this situation? Or do you have something similar going on already?
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
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Good post Thomaska. The minority vote issue puts the whole thing into a quandry. Canada is lucky that the oceans serve as a natural blockade to a massive illegal immigration problem. Not that there aren't problems but not on this kind of scale.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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well, if we brought it to scale with population, it would be 1.2 million to us, which is about 4-5 years of legal immigration.

But it seems pointless to go after the aliens, they rushed through a desert to find work, think that will stop them?

If you want to stop them from coming over, go after the people who use them to bypass minimum wage laws and lower the wages of legal american workers.

Make it a felony with a minimum five years jail time to employ an illegal worker, with whistleblower protection if you rat out your boss.

Watch them cross the border the other way in a few years if you keep this enforced.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Great Satan
well, if we brought it to scale with population, it would be 1.2 million to us, which is about 4-5 years of legal immigration.

But it seems pointless to go after the aliens, they rushed through a desert to find work, think that will stop them?

If you want to stop them from coming over, go after the people who use them to bypass minimum wage laws and lower the wages of legal american workers.

Make it a felony with a minimum five years jail time to employ an illegal worker, with whistleblower protection if you rat out your boss.

Watch them cross the border the other way in a few years if you keep this enforced.

What you have suggested is actually the way it is supposed to work. However, it does not.

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement people (ICE) have conducted a few raids here and there, and while they do nab a handful of illegals, the negative fallout they get is over the top. Border Patrol agents have been jailed for (GASP) shooting a drug smuggler in the buttocks, among other things as they try to enforce the laws on the books.

Did you know that if a police officer pulls someone over in most states for DUI, DWI and that person all but has a sign that says "I AM ILLEGALLY IN THE US" on their forehead, the police officer cannot ask if they are a legal citizen?

Another collossal waste of money is the fence they want to build from Brownsville TX to San Diego, CA. I mean really..if the Great Wall of China couldn't keep the Mongols out, what has possessed our politicians to think a chain link fence will do any better is beyond me. Nevermind the fact that the contractors building the fence.....wait for it....were using illegal immigrants to build it. No kidding.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
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Thomaska... the bottom line is this... wealth.

Big time politicians are very wealthy people and will always live in gated communities, go to the front of the line, etc. If they let 20 million illegals into the US their lifestyle will not be changed and they will never feel a pinch in their wallet.

I TOTALLY agree... go after the employers that hire them. The recent raids they had at the meat packing plants in the midwest crushed another myth.

"They are just doing the work that Americans dont want to."

After the raid, hundreds of Americans applied for jobs recently vacated by illegal aliens. Illegal aliens are treated like dogs or quasi slaves in these places.

Docked pay for a bathroom break, partial checks, no checks, no overtime pay, forced overtime... the list goes on.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
Thomaska... the bottom line is this... wealth.

Big time politicians are very wealthy people and will always live in gated communities, go to the front of the line, etc. If they let 20 million illegals into the US their lifestyle will not be changed and they will never feel a pinch in their wallet.

I TOTALLY agree... go after the employers that hire them. The recent raids they had at the meat packing plants in the midwest crushed another myth.

"They are just doing the work that Americans dont want to."

After the raid, hundreds of Americans applied for jobs recently vacated by illegal aliens. Illegal aliens are treated like dogs or quasi slaves in these places.

Docked pay for a bathroom break, partial checks, no checks, no overtime pay, forced overtime... the list goes on.

Yep, and didja know that the meat packing plants here in Colorado, (Georgia as well, I believe) had to raise the wages they were paying for those jobs that were vacated by the raids?

Big surprise, eh?
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
well, if we brought it to scale with population, it would be 1.2 million to us, which is about 4-5 years of legal immigration.

But it seems pointless to go after the aliens, they rushed through a desert to find work, think that will stop them?

If you want to stop them from coming over, go after the people who use them to bypass minimum wage laws and lower the wages of legal american workers.

Make it a felony with a minimum five years jail time to employ an illegal worker, with whistleblower protection if you rat out your boss.

Watch them cross the border the other way in a few years if you keep this enforced.

I wonder what that would do to the retail price of produce? Start paying everyone $6.50 an hour who picks it would have to drive a number of producers under or drive the prices up substancially. Not to mention that here in Canada it would put the cost of US produce far above local stuff, rendering it nearly impossible to get once the growing season is over here. Probably Mexican produce would become the main provider but then what about a tariff
should it begin to out compete local American grown veggies?

While I agree with people getting a fair shake with their employers, the ramifications could be far reaching.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Well, then people will have to pay more for food. Or more likely, they won't use hourly pay for harvest, but pay for work (ie, so much per bushel) , The economy is quite able to deal with legal labour.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
It is about money but look at the money it is costing the U.S. taxpayer .... I snitched this from another site

From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" *****s and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it. Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know. CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. there is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once

qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayer's also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people. THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOR EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'
__________________
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Couple of thoughts on the current immigration tragedy

Anyone who would knowingly commit fraud upon a nation will never be a good citizen of that nation. Those who do are in it for the short haul to take and run.

The argument amnesty proponents give is the cheap labor force - which is not cheap at all.

The businesses who pay cash to undocumented people thus avoiding paying taxes themselves are cheating the people who do pay workers' benefits and taxation - and the workers who pay taxes themselves.

The expense to the American people is found at another level - education, housing and medical care, bi-lingual accommodation in government, and alarmingly - incarceration time, for the undocumented workers, untold debt in real estate and trashing neighborhoods by those who have never had a home to pay for or operate knowledgeably... all of this 'saves us money'....???

Only the select few profit. This includes the Mexican government who count on the money sent home to the families there by the workers in the U.S. The Mexican government (I do not know about the other S.A. nations)... incorporate these funds as a line item in 'income' on their government annual budget - 'money received from international workers'. It saves the Mexican government from having to support a labor force they cannot provide work for.

So, the cheating businesses who employ these workers to 'save money' are actually costing the taxpayers in the U.S. more money than we can afford.

You buy on the cheap you are going to get shoddy performance.

And the government turns away from the truth, while holding back the people from all over the world who are trained and educated to hold good jobs and are doing the immigration dance legally.... while we continue to be flooded with illegals, having to sustain a totally bi-lingual government when the language is English - every government document is bi-lingual.....in Spanish... not the other languages of the many immigrants from other nations who have had to learn English to survive.

It would have been more advantageous for the U.S. corporations to develop Mexico's vast working force in manufacturing and assembly as well as more updated crop production to leave the people in their own nation, being able to support their families at home rather than breaking down the system in the U.S. Too late now - what narrow sighted planning this has become.

Now the activists are raising the Mexican Flags and taking over cities and the border has become a gateway to chaos - because the U.S. government allowed this sham of 'saving us money'.... to be the excuse for gaining favors.

There is no argument or excuse 'for' illegal migration ... wrong is wrong.

 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
It is about money but look at the money it is costing the U.S. taxpayer .... I snitched this from another site

From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" *****s and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it. Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know. CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. there is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once

qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayer's also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people. THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOR EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'
__________________

And what has been the reponse form our elected Representatives?

That people who point things like this out are Racists, and bad Americans. They tell us we don't want what is best for the country.

I'd even go so far as to say our Commader in Chief has in a round about way, called "shamnesty" opponents unpatriotic.

The racist tag is the one that says it all for me. If you have to pull the "R" card this early in the fight, you are really dealing from an indefensible position in my opinion.
 

Toro

Senate Member
This notion is being sold in particular by the Heritage Foundation, which once favored liberal immigration but now is pitching a study by Robert Rector claiming that households headed by low-skilled immigrants use $89 billion more in government services than they pay in taxes. We'd be worried too if this were true, but a tour of the serious economic literature shows it isn't.

The Heritage study calculates the impact only of low-skilled immigrants, those without a high school degree. This group accounts for about one-third of all U.S. immigrants. Higher-skilled immigrants are indisputably fiscal bargains because they have high earnings and pay taxes under the highly progressive American tax code. ...

Most studies also agree that the fiscal impact of the overall immigration population -- roughly 30 million people -- is also positive. In a comprehensive 1997 study, the National Academy of Sciences concluded that over their lifetimes immigrants and their children pay an estimated $80,000 more in taxes to all levels of government than they receive in benefits. ...

The debate is over the impact of the lowest skilled immigrants -- the 4.5 million heads of households, legal and illegal, who don't hold a high school degree. The Heritage study, which has become grist for talk radio, overstates the costs of immigrants.

First, of the estimated $19,588 of government benefits collected by low-skilled immigrant households each year, $8,462 -- or 43% -- are the cost for educating children. This leads to a strange logic. Under the Heritage cost-benefit framework, children are financial burdens to society and the surest way to balance the budget would be for Americans to stop having kids.

One of every four children born in America has an immigrant mother, but Mr. Rector is guilty of single-entry bookkeeping: He counts the costs of educating these children of immigrants but he fails to count the taxes they pay as adults. This is a major oversight because scholars have consistently shown that the children of immigrants tend to be the highest achievers and earners of all generations.

A study by economist Adam Zaretsky of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis compared the earnings and taxes of three groups: the native-born, immigrants, and the children of immigrants. He found that "Recent immigrants pay the least [taxes], but their children, who tend to make more money and live in high-income/high-tax states, pay the most."

David Card recently showed, for the National Bureau of Economic Research, that "of the 39 largest country-of-origin groups, sons from 33 groups and daughters from 32 groups have higher average educational attainment than the children of natives. . . . Evidence of the intergenerational progress of immigrants' children points to above-average levels of education even for children whose fathers had much lower schooling than native-born fathers." This is powerful evidence of the economic assimilation of the children of immigrant parents.

Mr. Rector also reports that the average low-skilled immigrant household collects $4,891 in Social Security and Medicare annually. But even conceding his figures, Social Security is a pay-as-you-go system. Retiree benefits are financed by the payroll taxes of current workers. Immigrants subsidize Social Security and Medicare because they pay taxes for 30 or 40 years without any parent collecting a monthly benefit check. This provides a one-generation net windfall -- an insight first pointed out in a 1984 study by the late economist Julian Simon and published by . . . the Heritage Foundation.

The Social Security Administration trustees agree with the original Heritage study (Simon's) and conclude in their latest actuarial report that the unfunded liabilities of Social Security "decrease with increasing rates of net immigration . . . Each additional 100,000 net immigrants increase the long-range actuarial balance by about 0.07 percent of taxable payroll."

What does that mean for the Treasury? The net present value of the net payroll taxes paid over benefits received from one million immigrants per year is just shy of $2 trillion through 2080. Even low-skilled immigrants are net contributors to the trust fund. ...

Heritage once made this point itself, notably in a 1998 study by economist William Beach, who calculated that Hispanics -- especially young, single males -- pay far more into Social Security than they receive over their lifetimes. Mr. Beach found that, in 1997 dollars, a typical Hispanic couple would receive $347,000 less in lifetime benefits than they pay in, allowing for a normal rate of return on payroll taxes. Maybe Heritage ought to dust off those intellectual archives, unless it's decided to bend to the fashions of the moment.

Correcting for this overstatement of retirement and education costs erases most of Mr. Rector's alleged fiscal deficit. What about the other $30 billion or so a year? Well, it turns out that about six of 10 native-born American households also receive more in government services than they pay in taxes. No one would suggest that 60% of native-born Americans are economic drains; why conclude this of low-skilled immigrants?

More broadly, the Rector study ignores that immigrants make economic contributions beyond net tax or benefit payments. One is that immigrants lower costs of production and thus reduce consumer prices, which in turn increase the real income of Americans.

A second benefit is that the labor provided by low-skilled immigrants complements the skills of native-born Americans, thus raising everyone's productivity and output. A 2006 National Bureau of Economic Research study noted that "immigrants stimulate investment, have skill sets and educational levels that complement those of natives, and do not compete for the same jobs as most natives." Immigration increased the average wages of all native-born workers in the 1990s by 1.1%, except those who did not have a high school diploma.

The President's Council of Economic Advisers recently added up all these benefits, updating the procedures used by the National Academy of Sciences, and concluded that the value of immigrants to the overall economy is a net positive $30 billion a year. Any such number is by its nature a general estimate, but the key point is that immigrants are an overall economic plus, not a drain.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118126594280728610.html?mod=todays_us_opinion
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Interesting article Toro

My only comment is that low-skilled migration - often brings low-paid migration who contribute very little for a number of years in the way of taxation contribution - many being exempt. If they remain and commit - they become excellent members and their children excel to contribute in their generation with a nod to the Asian/Indian community.
They are for the most part highly skilled professionals and have changed the face of the U.S.

I should point out I was discussing illegal immigration only - as I am totally in favor of legal migration by any group to any nation - provided they want to 'join' and 'contribute' - not only monitarily but in cultural and societal endeavors as well.

A wealthy nation - rich in diverse backgrounds - avoids stagnation by those who would insist on 'maintaining status quo' which gets very old in a very short time.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
A typical response to a raid:

Immigration officials in Portland, Oregon arrested about 165 people Tuesday — most of them illegal workers — along with managers who knowingly hired them and supplied them with false documents.
And Portland Mayor Tom Potter is unhappy — not about the crimes — but about the arrests.

His statement: "I am angered by this morning's arrest by federal officers of approximately 150 Portland residents who were working at a local produce company... To go after local workers who are here to support their families while filling the demands of local businesses for their labor is bad policy... My heart goes out to families dealing with the aftermath of this morning."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,282033,00.html
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
The idea that prices will go up if owners don't hire illegal aliens is hog wash. That is just a scare tactic because all they want to do is have a higher profit margin. By hiring illegal workers simply means that they don't have to follow the law with these people as they have no voice. They pay them at their leisure, dock them, abuse them, and threaten to report them to Immigration Officials if they complain. When they get caught they spout off on how the prices will have to go up now that they have been busted for breaking the law.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
I'd have more sympathy if we didn't treat them so badly and benefit from their slave labor. If we want them to contribute more to the system, making them legal seems like the easiest way to do it. They could have their jobs openly and that means paying taxes.

Oh, and I am a legal immigrant to this country and wouldn't consider it a slap in the face to me. If they want to work the crappiest jobs around for the chance to pay about $5000 in fines and spent the next decade working for citizenship, I couldn't care less. It doesn't impact my status here in any way.
 
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Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
1,535
41
48
Calgary, Alberta
I'd believe the crap in this thread if I didn't see with my own eyes the conditions migrant farm labourers live in.

There's an old saying: "A developer is someone who wants a house in the country; an environmentalist is someone who already has one."

Whole lotta environmentalists on this thread.

Pangloss
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
The idea that prices will go up if owners don't hire illegal aliens is hog wash. That is just a scare tactic because all they want to do is have a higher profit margin. By hiring illegal workers simply means that they don't have to follow the law with these people as they have no voice. They pay them at their leisure, dock them, abuse them, and threaten to report them to Immigration Officials if they complain. When they get caught they spout off on how the prices will have to go up now that they have been busted for breaking the law.

So you think the producers will take it on the chin when they have to pay wages and benefits to workers rather than putting prices up?