Woman denied haircut goes to Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario

[damngrumpy]

We disagree on this one, in this case. Yes they can refuse service under a reasonable condition,
but they should not be allowed to refuse service on the basis it is against their religion. All Canadians
should abide by the same law and if they do not they should face the music.
Muslims, Christians, who ever, the law of the land should apply to all no exceptions not on religious
grounds. Religion must face the fact in a secular society they had better get with the program.
They are getting tax breaks on the grounds of religion. That is the churches and places of worship.
As individuals they should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion or gender, only for
infractions while in the place of business. Business people should be held to a standard of conduct.
If they do not one should be legislated.
That already happens to a degree, you can't just hire all one group because you don't like on race or
religion in a big company and the same should hold true doe the line. Same goes for customers, a
company should not be allowed to discriminate against a customer for reasons that are unreasonable,
like gender, religion, or because the wear green shoes. for example. Our society should have moved
on by now.

 

[taxslave]

We disagree on this one, in this case. Yes they can refuse service under a reasonable condition,
but they should not be allowed to refuse service on the basis it is against their religion. All Canadians
should abide by the same law and if they do not they should face the music.
Muslims, Christians, who ever, the law of the land should apply to all no exceptions not on religious
grounds. Religion must face the fact in a secular society they had better get with the program.
They are getting tax breaks on the grounds of religion. That is the churches and places of worship.
As individuals they should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion or gender, only for
infractions while in the place of business. Business people should be held to a standard of conduct.
If they do not one should be legislated.
That already happens to a degree, you can't just hire all one group because you don't like on race or
religion in a big company and the same should hold true doe the line. Same goes for customers, a
company should not be allowed to discriminate against a customer for reasons that are unreasonable,
like gender, religion, or because the wear green shoes. for example. Our society should have moved
on by now.

What do you propose to do about women only fitness centers?

What do you propose to do about women only fitness centers?

Or more importantly the NDP having designated some ridings as woman candidates only for their party.

 

[gerryh]

Get off the tax break bandwagon. Its a red herring when it comes to this op. He opened a barber shop to cater to male clientele only. Period. Thereason why he did it is besides the point.

 

[karrie]

We disagree on this one.... Same goes for customers, a
company should not be allowed to discriminate against a customer for reasons that are unreasonable,
like gender, religion, or because the wear green shoes. for example. Our society should have moved
on by now.

I completely disagree. Lingerie stores should be able to serve only women if they want. Gyms should be able to cater to women or men as they see fit. Barbers should be able to cut only men's hair. And religious rights should be respected (both to hold, and to not hold religious views), for all Canadians wherein they don't strip someone else of their rights. She is attempting to trump his rights and assert herself as more important than him. That is not okay.

 

[SLM]

This goes much deeper than just a haircut or a marriage ceremony. In this country we have
set up exceptions to the rule that all are equal under the law.
For example some ministers don't want to perfor gay marriages that are equal under the law.
These same churches and minsters will take every tax exemption and be unencumbered by
taxes the church would pay if they were ordinary citizens. If those deduction were given to
the church the money comes from somewhere. You and I pay for their tax deduction.
Therefore if they are receiving special treatment they should have to treat everyone equally
and perform gay marriages. If they don't want to treat everyone equally then get rid of the
special treatment for them.

Ok, well first of all churches don't get a tax deduction. An individual receives a tax deduction for making a donation. Registered charities, which includes churches, simply do not pay taxes on contributions received IF they devote their assets to charitable purposes and causes. CRA will, and does, revoke their status for non-compliance with that registration requirement, and a few others. The benefit derived by the nation from this tax exempt status as a whole is the benefit of the charitable works.

Now for the haircut. The person coming into the shop did not swear or they did not threaten
anyone or cause a disturbance. The customer was denied service because she was a woman
and he belongs to a religion that forbids him to touch a woman on of his family. That in my view
is not an excuse. In this country we treat people equally and with respect. Again religion is
allowed to skate because its a religion.

As has been pointed out there are women's only athletic facilities. There are women's clothing stores, there are men's clothing stores, there are children's clothing stores. If a grown man walked into Gap Kids and expected to be fitted for a shirt, he'd be told they don't do that. It is not bigoted nor does it infringe upon someones human rights to have a specialized service.

But even beyond that, in an attempt to find a resolution, an offer was made for another male who worked there to perform the service requested. They tried to make an exception, to meet somehow, some way in the middle. It was turned down. Now, out of the two individuals who tries and embraces the respect of the others beliefs and ideals more?

IN my view everyone in a democracy should be treated the same.

I completely disagree with that. Everyone should be treated equally which is different from saying everyone should be treated the same. Very different.

 

[Goober]

Read a bunch of various opinions all over the net over the past couple of days regarding this incident. I have to admit - I was wrong.

 

[karrie]

Read a bunch of various opinions all over the net over the past couple of days regarding this incident. I have to admit - I was wrong.

What changes your view? I'm curious. Is it the arguments? The people presenting them? Or just an overall broader view of the issue? Or perhaps something altogether different I'm missing.


I hope you don't mind my asking, but I'm always curious about our thought processes on stuff like this.

 

[Goober]

What changes your view? I'm curious. Is it the arguments? The people presenting them? Or just an overall broader view of the issue? Or perhaps something altogether different I'm missing.


I hope you don't mind my asking, but I'm always curious about our thought processes on stuff like this.

I made the error of rushing to judgment.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/11/17/rex-murphy-freedoms-bad-hair-day/

 

[petros]

Would la Senza allow me to try on panties if for some bizarre reason I wanted to try on panties at la Senza?

 

[Goober]

Would la Senza allow me to try on panties if for some bizarre reason I wanted to try on panties at la Senza?

No- But they have takeout.

 

[Machjo]

A request for a lunch-hour haircut has turned into a battle over human rights, pitting freedom of religion against a woman’s right not to be denied service based on her gender.

Faith McGregor walked into the Terminal Barber Shop on Bay St. in June to get a haircut — the “businessman,” short on the sides, tapered, trim the top. The shop, like many barbers in Toronto, doesn’t do women’s haircuts. But McGregor, 35, said she wanted a men’s cut.

Shop co-owner Omar Mahrouk told her his Muslim faith prohibits him from touching a woman who is not a member of his family. All the other barbers said the same thing.

“For me it was just a haircut and started out about me being a woman. Now we’re talking about religion versus gender versus human rights and businesses in Ontario,” said McGregor.

She filed a complaint with the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario almost immediately, saying she felt like a “second-class citizen.”


more about this whining


Woman denied haircut goes to Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario - thestar.com

I don't think she has a case here.

 

[Cannuck]

Would la Senza allow me to try on panties if for some bizarre reason I wanted to try on panties at la Senza?

LOL coincidence....I was with my daughters on Friday, shopping for my other daughter's Christmas presents. They bought her a pair of panties at La Senza and the lady asked if we wanted a gift box. I said, no thanks, I'll wear them home. It took her a few seconds.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Ignorant response. They set up a men's barber shop. Not a "hair salon". As an independant business person, they have the right to restrict their clientele to whomever they want.

She walked in knowing it was a barber shop and should not have been surprised when she was told they don't cut women's hair.

Not al all ignorant. Was there a sign outside the shop stating "Men's Haircuts Only?" So far as I know all businesses open to the public are required by law to offer services to all citizens regardless of their sex. There are a few common sense exceptions, such as gynocologists refusing to see male patients, but cutting hair is not an exception so far as I know. The problem with this situation is that if Muslims can invoke their religion as an excuse to refuse to serve women in barber shops they could do this in any business they own. That would open the door to anyone with a supposed religious conviction to practice similar discrimination; including refusing to serve Muslims.

If the woman in question attempted to get a haircut in the Middle East, the prohibition against cutting her hair might have some merit, but Canada is not the Middle East. Muslims in Canada have already had to give up certain religious practices common in their homelands, such as female circumcision and forcing their sons and daughters into arranged marriages. I really see no reason why religion should have anything to do with providing a haircut.

 

[Cannuck]

Years ago, some uppity black woman whined about where she was allowed to sit on a bus. Did it really matter? The seats at the back were just as comfortable and did the same job as the seats at the front.

 

[petros]

Years ago, some uppity black woman whined about where she was allowed to sit on a bus. Did it really matter? The seats at the back were just as comfortable and did the same job as the seats at the front.

Luckily deodorant became popular and buses became air conditioned and the issue subsided.

 

[Machjo]

Wouldn't a simple solution be to simply team up with a hair salon, whereby the barber shop would be in one room, the salon in the other, and that way they could just get a female hair stylist give her a haircut?

 

[petros]

Wouldn't a simple solution be to simply team up with a hair salon, whereby the barber shop would be in one room, the salon in the other, and that way they could just get a female hair stylist give her a haircut?

Something wrong with magicuts?

 

[taxslave]

Not al all ignorant. Was there a sign outside the shop stating "Men's Haircuts Only?" So far as I know all businesses open to the public are required by law to offer services to all citizens regardless of their sex. There are a few common sense exceptions, such as gynocologists refusing to see male patients, but cutting hair is not an exception so far as I know. The problem with this situation is that if Muslims can invoke their religion as an excuse to refuse to serve women in barber shops they could do this in any business they own. That would open the door to anyone with a supposed religious conviction to practice similar discrimination; including refusing to serve Muslims.

If the woman in question attempted to get a haircut in the Middle East, the prohibition against cutting her hair might have some merit, but Canada is not the Middle East. Muslims in Canada have already had to give up certain religious practices common in their homelands, such as female circumcision and forcing their sons and daughters into arranged marriages. I really see no reason why religion should have anything to do with providing a haircut.

So we can all get memberships at Curves now right?

 

[Machjo]

Something wrong with magicuts?

I agree she's just causing trouble for nothing. I'm just thinking, if the barber shop wanted to go beyond the call of duty that would be an option to avoid further such problems, but I agree people like her will never be satisfied.

Can I insist on a masseuse rather than a masseur, and if she refuses I can take her to a human rights tribunal?

 

[taxslave]

I agree she's just causing trouble for nothing. I'm just thinking, if the barber shop wanted to go beyond the call of duty that would be an option to avoid further such problems, but I agree people like her will never be satisfied.

Can I insist on a masseuse rather than a masseur, and if she refuses I can take her to a human rights tribunal?

What did Layton do?