Who is Jesus?

[Vanni Fucci]

Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Truth and belief

Main article: Truth
Belief can alter observations; those with a particular belief will often see things as reinforcing their belief, even if they do not.[9] Needham's Science and Civilization in China uses the 'flying horse' image as an example of observation: in it, a horse's legs are depicted as splayed, when the stop-action picture by Eadweard Muybridge shows otherwise. Note that at the moment that no hoof is touching the ground, the horse's legs are gathered together and are not splayed.



Eadweard Muybridge's studies of a horse galloping


Earlier paintings depict the incorrect flying horse observation. This demonstrates Ludwik Fleck's caution that people observe what they expect to observe, until shown otherwise; our beliefs will affect our observations (and therefore our subsequent actions). The purpose of the scientific method is to test a hypothesis, a belief about how things are, via repeatable experimental observations which can contradict the hypothesis so as to fight this observer bias

 

[eanassir]

Repeated.​

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Ah good...more unsubstantiated twaddle...

 

[eanassir]

Who was Jesus?​

Jesus was a true identity; he lived then died and his body was buried on a height near Damascus, while his soul went up to his Lord in heaven.

Jesus was a spirit in the neighborhood of his Lord, and then his Lord ordered him to descend to the earth, and enter in the body of the fetus that He created in the womb of Virgin Mary.

Jesus was neither a god, nor a son of God; he was a prophet: a human being who ate food and drank water (and relieved nature.)

Jesus Christ was a high rank prophet and an apostle of firm will and tremendous nature and one brought close to God. God gave him many miracles to prove his prophet-hood; yet he was an apostle like a large number of apostles that came before him.

This is without any enthusiasm about him: a human being : eats, drinks, relieves nature (pass normal bowel motion and urine), he lived then died, but was not crucified.

This is in the Quran 4: 171​

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً​

The explanation:
(O people of the Bible [lit. Scripture], do not exaggerate in your religion nor say aught concerning God save the truth.

The Messiah Jesus the son of Mary was but a messenger of God, and His word, that He cast to Mary and a spirit [coming] from His [neighborhood],

so believe in God and [all] His messengers.

Say not "Trinity"; desist [from such words] it will be better for you; for God is One God; Far Exalted is He above having a son.

To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.
God suffices for a One Who registers their works.

The Christ will never disdain to be a servant of God, neither will the angels favored [by God.] whosoever disdains to serve Him, and waxes proud, He will gather them altogether to Him [in the space.] )
----------------------------------------------------------

Jesus Christ was not crucified; but another man a criminal man in the prison of Pilate) that was crucified.

This is at our site: The Disagreement of the :

" Pilate promised them to crucify Jesus, but he said within himself: I cannot bear the burden of the sin of killing this [innocent] man; but, instead, I will release him and he should go out of this city and disappear from the community, and if they ask me about him I shall say to them: I have crucified and buried him.

Then he called Jesus Christ, and said to him: I don’t find any cause of death in you, so I shall release you, and you should go out of this city to Syria to hide there from them, and if they ask me about you, I shall tell them that I have crucified and buried him.

Then he released Jesus and the Christ hid from them. His disciples saw him three days later, and they feared and thought that he was a ghost, but he spoke to them and said: “I am alive as you see, and I am not a ghost as you think. Have you bread?” They gave him bread and fish and he took and ate before them.

Then he traveled to Syria and stayed there on the Quasseon Mountain (near Damascus) where he hid himself from the Jews. A period of time later, he died and was buried in that high land, while his spirit ascended to heaven to the Paradises."
ÕÝÍÉ ÌÏíÏÉ 1

He will come once again, and has another mission, in the future.


eanassir
The Disagreement of the​

​

​

​

 

[eanassir]

Ah good...more unsubstantiated twaddle...

No, this is only to assert the truth about Jesus - salam be to him - among all your confusions.

 

[scratch]

No, this is only to assert the truth about Jesus - salam be to him - among all your confusions.

He was a man `out` of his time.

 

[In Between Man]

Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

those with a particular belief will often see things as reinforcing their belief,

people observe what they expect to observe, until shown otherwise; our beliefs will affect our observations (and therefore our subsequent actions). The purpose of the scientific method is to test a hypothesis, a belief about how things are, via repeatable experimental observations which can contradict the hypothesis so as to fight this observer bias

Agreed. But it still doesn't change the fact that the -actual truth- is objective.

No matter how its perceived, interpreted, or how you feel about it. The actual truth of whatever it is, is objective. Unchanging. People misinterpret the truth all the time. It doesn't change it.

Not only is it objective of our feelings and reactions, but we all accept the fact that truth is objective everyday. We all know that Stevie Harper exists, even though most of us have never met him.

Not only that, but as humans we are perfectly able to suppress truth if we choose. That's why in regards to the big question: Does God exist? Both sides interpret what the objective truth is differently. One side looks at the universe and concludes there is no God. The other side looks at the same universe and concludes there must be a God.

There is an objective truth somewhere. One view is right, and the other as it seems, is suppressing truth....

I'll leave you with the words of David Duchovny. "The truth is out there...."

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Agreed. But it still doesn't change the fact that the -actual truth- is objective.

No matter how its perceived, interpreted, or how you feel about it. The actual truth of whatever it is, is objective. Unchanging. People misinterpret the truth all the time. It doesn't change it.

Not only is it objective of our feelings and reactions, but we all accept the fact that truth is objective everyday. We all know that Stevie Harper exists, even though most of us have never met him.

Not only that, but as humans we are perfectly able to suppress truth if we choose. That's why in regards to the big question: Does God exist? Both sides interpret what the objective truth is differently. One side looks at the universe and concludes there is no God. The other side looks at the same universe and concludes there must be a God.

There is an objective truth somewhere. One view is right, and the other as it seems, is suppressing truth....

I'll leave you with the words of David Duchovny. "The truth is out there...."

Goddam...I need to get some sleep...

I could have sworn that at one point you said that truth was 'subjective', and I was arguing that point all along...

...and all the while I was thinking "WTF are you talking about Alley???"

...but then I went back and read your posts again and it says the exact opposite...so WTF???

...I guess we're in agreement then...8O

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Agreed. But it still doesn't change the fact that the -actual truth- is objective.

No matter how its perceived, interpreted, or how you feel about it. The actual truth of whatever it is, is objective.

Alleywayzalwayz, that depends on what kind of truth. Scientific truth is objective, e.g. earth goes around the sun, or gravity exists. These truths are objective, nobody can dispute that.

Spiritual or metaphysical truths, however, are not objective, mainly because there is no way of proving or disproving them. e.g., God exists, or there is an afterlife. If you cannot prove or disprove a statement, it is not an objective statement, but a subjective opinion of somebody.

Indeed, that is the mistake Fundamentalists (both of Muslim and Christian variety) make. They ‘know’ that there is an absolute truth, and they are going to impose their version of ‘objective’ truth upon everybody whether that everybody wants it or not.

That's why in regards to the big question: Does God exist? Both sides interpret what the objective truth is differently.

And just what is the objective truth in this instance? And who decides that is the objective truth?

There is an objective truth somewhere. One view is right, and the other as it seems, is suppressing truth....

I'll leave you with the words of David Duchovny. "The truth is out there...."

Really? The truth is out where? And who decides what the truth is? Do you decide?

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Yeah...what Mr. Porter said...

:thumbright:

 

[eanassir]

The atheists have a strange way of thinking; they deny God's existence, and say we cannot prove or disprove this.​

How can they deny the existence of a creator of the universe? How can the universe be there without any maker That made it?​

Then when I said: "Believe in God alone and you will be saved"; they said this is Pascal's wagers!​

No, I am certain about God; but I said this only to persuade others [Pascal might have had the same purpose, and he was right, not wrong] and to explain this fact: the loss of the atheist anyhow, and that the outcome of the believer will certainly be more successful [in case he adds righteous work to his belief in God alone.]​

This is in the Quran 49: 15​

إِنَّمَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَرْتَابُوا وَجَاهَدُوا بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الصَّادِقُونَ​

The explanation:
(The [true] believers are only those who have believed in God and His messenger [or apostle],
and have never since doubted [following their belief],
and [then] have striven with their wealth and their persons for the cause of God;
such are the truthful [and sincere believers.])​

 

[darkbeaver]

Why is it important for some to believe in god? Well I think it's to supply a vision of the completed circle and a lighted path with a fixed destination. Maybe none of us can accept the idea of the infinity of the universe a state without beginning or end. What is the big bang if not a god of creation and that should be the measure to all of our creativity. All is illusion all is assembled from the past nothing is as it seems and we can never know the whole of it, it will not stop for us we can never catch up, we will only fall further and further behind with each new question.
So what harm in that anchor?

 

[In Between Man]

Goddam...I need to get some sleep...

I could have sworn that at one point you said that truth was 'subjective', and I was arguing that point all along...

...and all the while I was thinking "WTF are you talking about Alley???"

...but then I went back and read your posts again and it says the exact opposite...so WTF???

...I guess we're in agreement then...8O

:lol::lol::lol: Sounds like ya need more coffee....

In response to what you said about truth, I'm glad to see you seem to agree. Remember, I'm not stating who has the truth, but merely that there is a real, objective truth to all questions.

Some are easy, some are not. What's two plus two? Did the holocaust happen? Is there a god? All these questions have objective truths.

It's outside of us, and we can't change it, only discover it.

Here's to truth, may we all discover it.....:cheers:

 

[In Between Man]

Really? The truth is out where? And who decides what the truth is? Do you decide?

Well, well, well, if it isn't SirJosephPorter, also known as SJP.

Did I state that I decide the truth?

Nobody decides what actual truth is, we discover it.

Right?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Did I state that I decide the truth?

Nobody decides what actual truth is, we discover it.

Right?

Well then, if nobody decides it, and if it is a question of discovery, then it follows that two persons may come up with different answers during the process of discovery. One may conclude that Bible is pro choice, while another may conclude that it is prolife. Nobody has the right, the authority to decide which of them is right.

What this means is that in metaphysics or where religion is concerned, there is no objective truth, it is all relative.

 

[In Between Man]

Well then, if nobody decides it, and if it is a question of discovery, then it follows that two persons may come up with different answers during the process of discovery.

Correct.

One may conclude that Bible is pro choice, while another may conclude that it is prolife.

Uh, okay.

Nobody has the right, the authority to decide which of them is right.

What are you talking about. What do think we're all doing on this forum half the time? Through an amazing process called debating, where one side asserts that they have correct interpretation, or the objective truth if you will, and the other side asserts that their view is correct, we are all hopefully getting closer to some objective truths about various topix.

Each side presents evidence and explains their interpretation, hopefully convincing knucklehead that he's wrong.

Do you see how that works?

What this means is that in metaphysics or where religion is concerned, there is no objective truth, it is all relative.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

:angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Through an amazing process called debating, where one side asserts that they have correct interpretation, or the objective truth if you will, and the other side asserts that their view is correct, we are all hopefully getting closer to some objective truths about various topix.

Sorry, that is not how it works; nobody is presenting an objective truth. Each side is presenting its opinion, its educated guess based upon some evidence. There is no objective truth in religion or metaphysics, and anybody who thinks he is presenting the objective truth is misguided and deluded.

We are hopefully getting closer to objective truth? Nothing of the sort, the objective truth is as elusive as ever, I don’t think it exists, not in the realm of spirituality and metaphysics.

What these debates do is that they help us understand, appreciate the opposing viewpoint and to that extent, they are mind broadening. But I hardly think anybody changes their opinions as a result of these debates.

So much as I hate to disappoint you, there is no objective truth emerging here, only the opposing viewpoints.

 

[In Between Man]

OML!!!! 8O8O8O I leave my computer for a few minutes to wolf down my dinner, and when I come back and read your reply, I nearly choke on the remaining food in my mouth!!!!

Sorry, that is not how it works; nobody is presenting an objective truth.

-hugh effing sigh-

In order for you to know that -- you would have to know what is the objective truth !!!

Each side is presenting its opinion, its educated guess based upon some evidence.

Yes....

There is no objective truth in religion or metaphysics, and anybody who thinks he is presenting the objective truth is misguided and deluded.

NO!!! Again for you to know that no one here is presenting the objective truth, you would have to know what is the objective truth!

We are hopefully getting closer to objective truth? Nothing of the sort, the objective truth is as elusive as ever, I don’t think it exists, not in the realm of spirituality and metaphysics.

What these debates do is that they help us understand, appreciate the opposing viewpoint and to that extent, they are mind broadening.

Just like how everyday we accept things as objective truths, debating the bigger questions has the same goal. Finding the objective truth.

But I hardly think anybody changes their opinions as a result of these debates.

Look SJP, I'll level with ya. I was young once, and I believed in some stupid things, even said some stupid things. Now, I'm not saying that you have to abandon your views on the bigger questions in life, but I am saying this:

You need to wake up and smell the truth. It's objective. Whatever you've read on relativism and truth -- is false.

So much as I hate to disappoint you, there is no objective truth emerging here,

Hallelujah!

Your above statement holds itself as an objective truth! Therefore defeating what its trying to prove! The argument doesn't meet its own criteria and is therefore self-defeating. It's nonsense.

It also proves that you actually believe in objective truths, just like the rest of us. I'm glad I could clear this up for you.

On a sidenote: Hmmmmm ...Seems to me that atheists believe they're the only ones capable of logic...hmmmm me thinks they're wrong.....

 

[eanassir]

Why is it important for some to believe in god? Well I think it's to supply a vision of the completed circle and a lighted path with a fixed destination. Maybe none of us can accept the idea of the infinity of the universe a state without beginning or end. What is the big bang if not a god of creation and that should be the measure to all of our creativity. All is illusion all is assembled from the past nothing is as it seems and we can never know the whole of it, it will not stop for us we can never catch up, we will only fall further and further behind with each new question.
So what harm in that anchor?

This is the most important: does man believe in God or not? Does he believe in God alone, or does he associate others with Him?​

This is in the Quran 45: 24​

وَقَالُوا مَا هِيَ إِلَّا حَيَاتُنَا الدُّنْيَا نَمُوتُ وَنَحْيَا وَمَا يُهْلِكُنَا إِلَّا الدَّهْرُ وَمَا لَهُم بِذَلِكَ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَظُنُّونَ​

The explanation:
(They say: "There is nothing but our [present] Worldly life;
we die and our [children] live,
and nothing but Time [factors] destroy us [: make us die.]"
Of that they have no knowledge, they merely conjecture.)
-------------------------------------------------------
"we die and our [children] live"
This is how talloola and some others may believe: that she will become energy through her daughter!​

A man that believes in God, he usually believes in the next afterlife, the Judgment and the Requital; while the atheist is usually the opposite. Consequently the conduct and the outcome in both these two lives: in this material World and the next spiritual afterlife will be different.​

 

[eanassir]

Who created the universe? How has the universe existed unless there is a maker that made it?
Moreover, there are system, orders, rules and laws that govern the universe; then who keeps up all this harmony and systematic order? ​

Moreover, there is purpose behind the objects and processes in the universe; e.g. the earth spins around itself and the day and night will result, and it circles around the sun and the years will pass by, and it tilts on its axis and the seasons will issue; therefore
Who is the Wise Designer that made all this wisdom?

We go along with them (for a matter of explanation only) that the universe came to existence of its own accord without any maker; but:
Who keeps up its existence and its order?​

This is in the Quran 35: 41​

إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُمْسِكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ أَن تَزُولَا وَلَئِن زَالَتَا إِنْ أَمْسَكَهُمَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّن بَعْدِهِ إِنَّهُ كَانَ حَلِيمًا غَفُورًا ​

The explanation: (Surely, God holds back the heavens and the earth, that they escape not [the gravity of the sun]; and if they were to escape [the gravity of the sun], no one else than Him could hold them. He is Ever-Clement [and] Most Forgiving.)
The interpretation:
>> ( God holds back the heavens and the earth) means: He grasps the planets and the earth by the gravity of the sun,
>> ( that they escape not [the gravity of the sun] ) means: lest they should slip away from the sun, and scatter into the space.
>> ( and if they were to escape [the gravity of the sun], ) as will they do on Doomsday,
>> ( no one else than Him could hold them.) means: Can anyone –apart from God – hold them back? That is because if the planets escape the gravity of the sun, they will break up and become meteorites, then they will be attracted to the newly formed planets; because our sun will break up, on the Day of Doom, into planets; for this reason, God –be exalted- said:​

إِنْ أَمْسَكَهُمَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّن بَعْدِهِ​

The explanation: (no one else than Him could hold them.)
The meaning: If the planets escape from the gravity and break up, then God –be exalted –will hold these pieces by another gravitational force. The reason for the slipping of the planets from the gravity of the sun on Doomsday is that the sun will break up and its parts will scatter in the space.
http://universeandquran.t35.com/index.htm#The_Gravity​

eanassir
ÕÝÍÉ ÌÏíÏÉ 1
http://man-after-death.t35.com​