What's wrong with Socialism ?

[Praxius]

Ok, I always hear this crud,

What exactly is your opposition to Capitalism. Capitalism basically stems to three very core beliefs.

1.) what you produce is yours.

If it was, I wouldn't be constantly taxed for it..... I'd be able to smoke smokes from the reserves without having to face fines or jail time becuase the government doesn't get their cut..... not to mention all the fun regulations, licenses and permits you need for producing and/or distributing what you produce.... frig.... a father can't even build a treehouse for his kids anymore without a permit (Which also costs money for no reason) and even then people get to bitch and complain that it takes the value of their property down because it ruins their view...... and it all stems from capitalism in one form or another.

2.) When you die you can leave your things to other people.

You can do that with any system... and in socialism, since everything is supposed to be distributed equally, this would still remain true.

3.) You are free to make any deal you wish with other people , so long as no force is used.

See my response for #1.

Thats capitalism in a nutshell, what exactly is it you want to carve away that is so deplorable?

Among many other things already explained in this thread...... see my response for #1.

 

[Praxius]

What is your alternative?

Cuba, USSR, North Korea, Vietnam, China?

See my thread in regards to New Direct Democracy.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/c...3-new-direct-democracy-government-revamp.html

But when Cuba has a better health care system then what the US has, they gotta be doing something right.

Capitalism is fine as long as it is regulated, under pure socialism nobody will create jobs or move us forward.

Anything is fine so long as it is regulated.... and I wasn't talking about Pure Socialism.... all I have said is that it has a lot more benifits then most other forms, such as capitalism. But Capitalism is already "regulated" ~ And look at the mess we're in today.

I know you may hate those who have made lot's of money without relying on government but those very people create jobs and wealth.

I don't give a crap about those who make more money then I.... as far as I am concerned, if more socialism was implimented into our everyday lives tomorrow, everybody should have every right to keep everything they currently have now and have earned, while everything get's eqalled out from then on. I give a crap about the same systems I followed to a tee to get me in the same position and now here I am with collection arsepuckers all over my ass because the banks didn't follow their own rules and got me into the situation I am in today. (And that is no exaggeration, and I know more then just myself who have been put in the exact same position because of the exact same tactics. That and the current economic situation we are in today has occured, like it has in the past, and will do so again in the future again and again. The cost of living keeps getting higher, while the money you get to pay for it all keeps getting lower....... the list goes on.

 

[Praxius]

Good points Zzarchov, as usual !

I'd like to add that when business cycles go horribly bad, laissez-faire can be suicide.

We need thoughtful manipulation and regulation of the markets, but most of all we need the market !!

We need the essentialness of capitalism, without which, there's nothing to fight over.

And what makes you think we need to fight in the first place? There's the problem right there. Rather then trying to actually fight important things, like health, equality, the bettering of mankind overall, here we all are trying to fight one another tooth and nail to get a bigger slice of the pie due to greed and selfishness. When you see the homeless guy on the street who's assistence to get them back on their feet to help contribute to society is so very little that it just keeps them where they are, all the while they milk more from the government, you can sit there and say to yourself "Well at least I'm not that guy."

Whatever makes you feel better I guess.

We also don't need to hold to ideology so rigidly that regulation kills the market, nor do we need to hold on to the ideology of laissez-faire that society immolates itself.

And our standards for helping should be fair. Do we help white collar and ignore blue collar?

Ask the banks who just got that 700 billion dollar bailout who are going to golf retreats and fancy spas because of their oh-so stressful jobs, while people lose their jobs and homes. :roll:

Practicality over ideology.

Pure socialists and Pure Laissez-faire people are just voyeurs who have not felt the burning hell of their own ideologies.

Which is probably true, which is why I don't believe in pure socialism, or pure communism, or pure capitalism, or any paticular religion for that matter.

I'm a complicated little bugger.

 

[Praxius]

All this millions and billions of hours of capitalist moaning about the evils of socialism is product support only. What do you expect liars and thieves to say. They always advocate cutting the middle out, in the case of the publics long term viability capitalists are the expensive needless nonproductive middle. And all their crowing about supplying jobs and income, get real people unemployments better for them than full employment, capitalists are terrified of competition, nobody needs them they're a parasiticle organic expression of vulgar logic. They create nothing but chaos. Where is the free world Praxius?:smile:

Where is it? Somewhere.... just not here yet.... what we have now is just something we have been told is freedom. Actually it's the very least amount of freedom given to us to think we're really free, all the while they shove the extreme worst examples from around the world of what it "Could" be like if we don't follow and believe everything they feed us.... so we feel that it's not all that bad and this is as good as it gets.

This is as good as it gets so long as we "Stay the Course" and follow the captain of capitalism as the vessel sinks and emplodes at the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Zzarchov]

If it was, I wouldn't be constantly taxed for it..... I'd be able to smoke smokes from the reserves without having to face fines or jail time becuase the government doesn't get their cut..... not to mention all the fun regulations, licenses and permits you need for producing and/or distributing what you produce.... frig.... a father can't even build a treehouse for his kids anymore without a permit (Which also costs money for no reason) and even then people get to bitch and complain that it takes the value of their property down because it ruins their view...... and it all stems from capitalism in one form or another.

Uhm, no, those are actually all socialist elements in our country.

Socialism is its root form the idea that the greater good trumps individual liberty. The very concept of income taxes is socialist, the idea that everyone should band togethor to help everyone else through pooling of resources in a method that is based upon what you have not what you want out of the system.

Thats why the USA (as a capitalist founding) didn't have income tax for the government to make money. Money came from Tarriffs.


Lisences and permits are again, socialism. The idea that the general public would be better off with regulation, so capitalism is curtailed to protect individuals.


The inability to build a treehouse is again socialism. Your ability to do what you want with your house is limited by the fact that everyone else in the neighbourhood would be harmed.

Societal good (their house prices) over your personal control over your capital (the erosion of your liberty).

You can do that with any system... and in socialism, since everything is supposed to be distributed equally, this would still remain true.

No you can't, because equally doesn't mean all families are equal. If you have fewer kids and stockpile goods, in a socialist system, they get redistributed equally amongst everyone.

Socialist systems bring in such fun facts as "public good laws", where your property could be of greater use to society than it is to you, so they take it.

See my response for #1.



Among many other things already explained in this thread...... see my response for #1.

Your response to number 1 is a pro-capitalism anti-socialism rant. Kinda torpedos your point.

 

[Spade]

The failure of socialism is taking capitalism seriously!

 

[darkbeaver]

Darkbeaver, with the three tenants of capitalism, explain which ones you would like to see cut out to destroy capitalism.

1.) what you produce is yours.
2.) When you die you can leave your things to other people.
3.) You are free to make any deal you wish with other people , so long as no force is used.


What part of that equation is it you think needs to be stopped most?

Those are not tennants of capitalism it has only one, and that is,

A/ profit above all else.

Capitalists will be cut from their cradles Zzarchov, their nests salted and their memory made synonomous with puss.

 

[Avro]

See my thread in regards to New Direct Democracy.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/c...3-new-direct-democracy-government-revamp.html

But when Cuba has a better health care system then what the US has, they gotta be doing something right.

Yeah, good health and education is no good when you can't do anything with it other than live in poverty and unlike the poor in this country they don't have a choice.

Anything is fine so long as it is regulated.... and I wasn't talking about Pure Socialism.... all I have said is that it has a lot more benifits then most other forms, such as capitalism. But Capitalism is already "regulated" ~ And look at the mess we're in today.

It wasn't regulated in the U.S. where this mess started.

I don't give a crap about those who make more money then I.... as far as I am concerned, if more socialism was implimented into our everyday lives tomorrow, everybody should have every right to keep everything they currently have now and have earned

You're damn right they should keep it, it's their's

while everything get's eqalled out from then on.

So no matter what you do or how hard you work we all get the same amount to live on? That is the theory of the lazy and stupid.:roll:

I give a crap about the same systems I followed to a tee to get me in the same position and now here I am with collection arsepuckers all over my ass because the banks didn't follow their own rules and got me into the situation I am in today.

Sounds like the talk of the bitter man who failed and wants to blame everyone else for it.


(

And that is no exaggeration, and I know more then just myself who have been put in the exact same position because of the exact same tactics.

You mean other bitter failures.

That and the current economic situation we are in today has occured, like it has in the past, and will do so again in the future again and again.

Yeah, so, move on.

The cost of living keeps getting higher, while the money you get to pay for it all keeps getting lower....... the list goes on.

Speak for yourself and keep your grubby hands off my money....get your own.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Ok, I always hear this crud,

What exactly is your opposition to Capitalism. Capitalism basically stems to three very core beliefs.

1.) what you produce is yours.
2.) When you die you can leave your things to other people.
3.) You are free to make any deal you wish with other people , so long as no force is used.


Thats capitalism in a nutshell, what exactly is it you want to carve away that is so deplorable?

That is simple; there are plenty of things wrong with Capitalism. Capitalism basically means every man for himself and Devil take the hindmost.

Where is the provision for looking after the poor, the disadvantaged members of the society? Would you want to go back way 100 or 200 years, similar to Victorian England, where those who didn’t have jobs starved, those who could not afford health care died?

Where is the provision for universal health care? In terms of Darwinism, all the animal (and plant) species have two instincts hard wired into them, the instinct of self survival, and the instinct of species survival.

Capitalism bases everything on self survival (remember the quote by Ivan Bolsky in the 80, ‘greed is good’?) and completely ignores the even stronger instinct of species survival. Capitalism is an incomplete system. A society based entirely on Capitalism will be a horrible place indeed, with people starving in the streets, dying because they cannot afford health care.

Mercifully, there is not a single totally capitalistic nation in the world, though USA comes closest.

 

[darkbeaver]

Let's have a nice mixed economy so our entreprenurs can enjoy the fruits of their labours and the education health and shelter of everyone can be provided. Socialism does not mean that everyone has to be the same, all we want to do is erect limits to private wealth not eliminate it altogether. In any case the details require the input of all citizens and that requires the education of all citizens. It won't be easy but it is a vital necessity that we make the transition and make it soon.

 

[fubbleskag]

"communism is bad, just look at russia"
"socialism is bad, just look at nazi germany"
"capitalism is bad, just look at america"

lol

 

[Zzarchov]

That is simple; there are plenty of things wrong with Capitalism. Capitalism basically means every man for himself and Devil take the hindmost.

Where is the provision for looking after the poor, the disadvantaged members of the society? Would you want to go back way 100 or 200 years, similar to Victorian England, where those who didn’t have jobs starved, those who could not afford health care died?

Where is the provision for universal health care? In terms of Darwinism, all the animal (and plant) species have two instincts hard wired into them, the instinct of self survival, and the instinct of species survival.

Capitalism bases everything on self survival (remember the quote by Ivan Bolsky in the 80, ‘greed is good’?) and completely ignores the even stronger instinct of species survival. Capitalism is an incomplete system. A society based entirely on Capitalism will be a horrible place indeed, with people starving in the streets, dying because they cannot afford health care.

Mercifully, there is not a single totally capitalistic nation in the world, though USA comes closest.

Actually there is , Somalia is purely capitalist.

And I agree, pure anything is going to be toxic, and impossible to achieve. In pure capitalism no one would starve in the street unless they were totally lazy, no one would be to ill for health care because deals could always be made.

and Pixies and unicorns would ride down mainstreet preventing people from colluding to use force and diabolical means from changing the system to totalitarianism.

But Capitalism is itself a part of human nature and essential to human happiness in the same way as the ability to have a family. Banning capitalism is about as good as banning family.

But at the same time we do have rules about families as well, because base human instinct (while important) can't be allowed to run free anymore than it can be carefully controlled.

But there is nothing any more inherently different morality wise between a lower middle class factory worker and a wealthy billionaire tycoon in how they use their wealth.

The billionaire tycoon is just as likely to help the poor and disadvantaged as a the lower middle class factory worker, and just as likely to call the poor and disadvantaged leeches or lazy and do nothing. The billionaire just has more sway in whatever his actions.

Capitalism will ALWAYS be here as long as humans have a shot in hell at a happy life, it just may have limits placed on it to force people into meshing into society.

 

[Zzarchov]

Those are not tennants of capitalism it has only one, and that is,

A/ profit above all else.

Capitalists will be cut from their cradles Zzarchov, their nests salted and their memory made synonomous with puss.

Then you are not talking about Capitalism, you are talking about totalitarianism resembling a kleptocracy.

If you are going to rant and rave against that, then more people would listen and agree with you. Because that isn't capitalism, perhaps thats what some kleptocrats try and hide behind, but it isn't Capitalism.

Capitalism is personal property being protected by a uniform rule of law. Thus the law trumps profit. Thats literally a dictionary definition.

You should more correctly label what it is you find distasteful in the world and you might find more people agreeing with you.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

In pure capitalism no one would starve in the street unless they were totally lazy, no one would be to ill for health care because deals could always be made.

Zzarchov, They most certainly would starve. There may be many reasons an individual cannot work besides being lazy, many reasons beyond his/her control (unforeseen illness, getting involved in an accident, large unemployment on a national scale etc.).

Capitalism makes no provisions for situations of this kind. In pure capitalism, if you cannot work, you starve. A single mother earning minimum wage may be forced to leave her infant child at home unattended while she is forced to go out to work. Or worse, she may be forced to leave her child with her sister, whose husband is a known child abuser.

As to health care, sure people will die, what ‘deals’ can be made under capitalism? In capitalism, if you cannot pay for your health care, you don’t get any. If a hospital or a doctor decides to treat a patient free of charge and thus save his life, that is charity, not capitalism.

In capitalism, a doctor would ask a dying man if he has any health insurance before he would touch him to treat him.

And I agree, pure anything is going to be toxic

Here we are in agreement.

 

[scratch]

db is not so far from the truth, is he?

 

[Avro]

Then you are not talking about Capitalism, you are talking about totalitarianism resembling a kleptocracy.

If you are going to rant and rave against that, then more people would listen and agree with you. Because that isn't capitalism, perhaps thats what some kleptocrats try and hide behind, but it isn't Capitalism.

Capitalism is personal property being protected by a uniform rule of law. Thus the law trumps profit. Thats literally a dictionary definition.

You should more correctly label what it is you find distasteful in the world and you might find more people agreeing with you.

Wow, well said, that should put the little commie in his place.;-)

 

[scratch]

Wat little commie?

 

[darkbeaver]

Then you are not talking about Capitalism, you are talking about totalitarianism resembling a kleptocracy.

If you are going to rant and rave against that, then more people would listen and agree with you. Because that isn't capitalism, perhaps thats what some kleptocrats try and hide behind, but it isn't Capitalism.

Capitalism is personal property being protected by a uniform rule of law. Thus the law trumps profit. Thats literally a dictionary definition.

You should more correctly label what it is you find distasteful in the world and you might find more people agreeing with you.

No I'm talking about capitalism the enabler of kleptocrats. Personal property was protected long before capitalism existed. Get the subject correct in your own mind, envision what capital is rather than what it might be or could be or should be. If you will not accept the reality of capital in your own mind especially in the light of evidence of its destructiveness as evident by the crisis of this very day added to its long history of murder and slavery then what can anyone do for you? It is a proven mistake and failure Zzarchov or do you dispute the accounting being reported today do you dispute the levels of poverty and war? Defend it if you will at least your're entertaining in your delusions. I look for no agreement from capitalist lizards, they can find the friends they need in hell.:smile:

 

[Praxius]

Uhm, no, those are actually all socialist elements in our country.

Socialism is its root form the idea that the greater good trumps individual liberty. The very concept of income taxes is socialist, the idea that everyone should band togethor to help everyone else through pooling of resources in a method that is based upon what you have not what you want out of the system.

That's one way to skew what I said, however still wrong..... when you have to pay money to do simple things and for no real logical reasons, that's capitalism, because someone wants your money in order for you to do anything. Smokes and alcohol is taxed, because the government wants money for things, and they get this money because it's easier for them to do at our expense. There was no (Or very little) public input in many of these decisions, the governments made these decisions, because they told us it was in our best interests, etc. In the concept that I believe will work, which is Soclialist Direct Democracy, is that any and all of these decisions are made by the people and then what the majority wants to occur happens.

When the government tells us how it's going to be without our input, that's not socialism, that's communism/dictatorship.

When someone prevents you from building or doing anything to your property or house because it takes down their precious value of their homes, they are afraid of losing money, and the government agrees and forces you not to do it..... Capitalism. If there is no currency or monies as I believe there shouldn't be, nobody would have to worry about the value of their homes based on what other's do with their own homes, and thus anybody could do whatever the hell they wanted on their land.

When you have to continually pay property taxes on the land and house you call home, that's capitalism.... paying people who have no more rights over the land then you do, esspecially if you were born and raised on that land or in the country..... yet all for money, profit and greed, they throw people through a burocracy and charges for useless crap to make it as difficult for you to do anything you want with your land and your home that they or anybody else may not like.

When it comes to making sure everybody's quality of life and freedoms are equal, making your own products, trading your own products, or building/modifying your home/property has nothing to do with it and everybody should have the freedom and right to do whatever they wish so long as it doesn't endanger others in the process.

Thats why the USA (as a capitalist founding) didn't have income tax for the government to make money. Money came from Tarriffs.

Tell that to the IRS..... and the problem with you debating this with me, is that you're still referring to money, while I am talking about abolishing money all together.

Lisences and permits are again, socialism. The idea that the general public would be better off with regulation, so capitalism is curtailed to protect individuals.

If it was socialism, then you wouldn't have to pay for anything..... with Capitalism, they have to squeeze any penny they can out of any action, any decision, anything you want to do.... processing fees, service charges..... oh and if you don't follow their instructions to a tee, you get additional charges/fines, have to take everything you did down and do it all over again, or never be allowed to do it period.

I have no problem having someone come and inspect my things I do to make sure they are safe and legal, but I have a problem with the run around services with charges up your arse for doing it. If I want to expand on my home, let's say I want to do it myself..... I have to pay for the material, spend my time and effort to build it all on my own, take the time to make sure it is all done correctly and safely.... and when it is all said and done, I still have to pay the government or some agency on behalf of the government to inspect it and make sure they got every dollar they can for doing nothing.

The only form of socialism I believe in is if you are going to school or working, you are contributing to society, and if you are doing that, then you should have a home, power, heat, water and food, just like everybody else..... yet depending on where you live, depending on a lot of things, you can end up paying more for the same things as someone else in a different location in the country..... because of capitalism and profit..... people in one area are paid more then another, they are a "richer" area, therefore the costs of everything are higher..... if you live in Newfoundland in a paticular house that costs a paticular amount to own, if that exact same house was built in Calgary, the cost of owning that house will be dramatically higher, even though it is built with the exact same materials, designed the exact same way.

Location is why? Is it closer to stores and other convienant things compared to the one in NFLD? Doesn't matter.... if you are working, if you are contributing to society and you are a citizen of this nation, you should have a home and everything you need to substain your life and family. If your home is farther away to stores and gerorcies and work..... supply them a vehicle that can meet their needs.

The inability to build a treehouse is again socialism. Your ability to do what you want with your house is limited by the fact that everyone else in the neighbourhood would be harmed.

That is not socialism.... it's capitalism.... someone's value of their house drops because they can't see some lake or some other tree, therefore their property value (Capitalism) drops..... the government agrees with them that they will loose money (Capitalism) therefore you can not build the treehouse, even though it is on your property that you already paid for. If capitalism didn't exist, and currency was abolished, nobody would have to worry about their property value, because there wouldn't be a value, except a personal value of it being your home. If someone built something on their property that you thought was an eyesore..... then too bad..... feel free to build your own eyesore, because it is your property and you can do with it as you wish..... equal.... socialism.

But if the only excuse people have to prevent someone from doing something is related to money.... then that is capitalism.

Societal good (their house prices) over your personal control over your capital (the erosion of your liberty).

Remove Capitalism as I have been saying and you have nothing to worry about in regards to your "Capital" because there wouldn't be any to worry about in the first place.

It's not complicated.

No you can't, because equally doesn't mean all families are equal. If you have fewer kids and stockpile goods, in a socialist system, they get redistributed equally amongst everyone.

If you are given the adiquate (And then some) amount of resources for the amount of people in your family in a proper maner, then there isn't an issue. Someone with a family of 3 doesn't need the same amount of resources as a family of 5. If everybody in your family has everything they need, and everybody in every other family has everything they need for their families, then it is equal.... you're still stuck on "They got more then us" mentality.... which is a capitalist flaw..... they get more, because there is more of them then you under one roof.... it's not the house that gets the resources, it's the people within that houshold. Seperate each one into seperate homes, and the amounts distributed would remain the same, not including additional resources for maintaining those homes.

Technically, if more people are under one roof, then the resources given would be less then it would be for someone living on their own, because the people living in one house only have to worry about the expenses of one house, rather then 3 or 4 other houses.....

If it is organized and operated properly, the amounts of resources given would be based on idividual needs.... therefore the proper amount for a child, the proper amount for a father, the proper amount for the wife, etc. would be given to the family and distributed equally for their benifit by the parents/authority figures in the household..... if it is found that one parent has been hoarding those resources for themselves or it is distributed unfairly through the houshold, then that would be a form of abuse and neglect, and thus, disiplinary actions would be required for the protection of each person in the houshold.

Socialist systems bring in such fun facts as "public good laws", where your property could be of greater use to society than it is to you, so they take it.

Oh so it's socialism that forecloses homes because people can't afford the new increases in their payments? It's Socialism that throws people out on the streets because someone didn't get their money or not enough of their money?

You sure do have things screwed up pretty well.... but I guess so long as you ignore the "Capitalist Costs" on just about everything in our lives, one could attempt to try and make it sound like it's all socialism's fault. The only reason why some of those capitalist processes seem like they have socialist traits, is because when they were all left on their own, there was little control on how much people were getting ripped off for their money and the BS crap they had to go through.

As our current economy is proving these days, when you let Capitalism go and take care of itself, everything goes to sh*t, people loose their homes, everybody looses their jobs, all because those who are in the power of capitalism don't give a sh*t about anything else except how much they got in their own pockets, regardless of what happens to everybody else. Socialism is the only way to keep it under control, keep these idiots in check and to make sure everybody in our society isn't being scammed for everything they have by believing in empty promises and thinking these people really know what they are doing and have their best interests at heart..... which they don't.... their job is to make money.... for themselves first, their company second..... and you dead last....

And that's why people have lost their homes, and that is why all these companies went tits up.... and that's why all these people who ran those companies in the ground are perfectly fine sitting in their mansions and their worst worries are if they can make par on the golf field.

Yeah, wonderful system you got there.

Your response to number 1 is a pro-capitalism anti-socialism rant. Kinda torpedos your point.

Maybe you should learn how to read.

 

[Avro]

WTF!

Praxious you have no idea what socialism or capitalism are.

You sound more like a libertarian.