What's up with Immigration in the US?

[sanch]

Test this theory of the WALL

Build a big stone fence 12 feet high between you and your neighbour’s house.
Tell him that you are building the WALL because well you are afraid that vandals are cutting across his property and you don’t feel safe
Tell him though you are really his friend and trust him but well you need this WALL because of the vandals
Tell him though you got some great ideas for his property
Tell him that you want to stay friends

Now reverse positions and imagine yourself as the neighbour. Would you want to remain friends with anyone who built a WALL between your properties? WALLs are not synonymous with free enterprise.

That growth figure of 30% does not reflect at all what is going on in Mexico. Ideally with growth that high jobs should have been created in Mexico. What has happened is that migration to the US has increased. And many of the migrants are working hard for very low wages. They would not be doing that if there were jobs in Mexico.

This growth and recent development has not benefited Mexicans. It has only benefited a certain class of Ladino and the US. Agri-business where there has been large growth utilizes machinery. And the peasants who lost their land? They are in the US.

The primary beneficiary of NAFTA has been the US. There is no benefit to other countries to join a trade pact with the US.

Jim the US has already tried to build a manufacturing zone in Mexico. It was an economic success for the US but a human disaster for Mexico. It is the maquilladora system. All US attempts at development in Latin America over the last 100 years have done nothing but produce one cycle of poverty after another.

If the US is going to build the WALL it should abandon any expansionist notions in Latin America. It won’t have any credibility there if it does. The WALL will become a symbol of isolationism, of insularity and of desperation. It is a precursor to the end. This is Pat Buchanan’s vision of America.

 

[Cosmo]

It's not enough you just spout bullshit, you have to post it twice?

ITN ... Luckily Canucklehead got to this before I did. Enough with the name calling and acting out. I would have given you a day off for that. Count yourself fortunate. I'm tired of playing kindergarten cop to a bunch of adults. Cosmo

 

[I think not]

I was out of line, apologies to DB and the mods.

 

[sanch]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigr

JimMoyer why wouldn't you just make manufacturing an American activity, why in the hell would you give up manufacturing to mexico, if you rebuild a fence arround your capital I think you could solve some of the problems. You get what you pay for.

The US companies only want access to cheap labour and the tax incentives offered by the Mexican government. If the companies paid decent livable and human wages they could operate in the US as well.

 

[jimmoyer]

Hey Canucklehead, give ITN a little more mercy.

I think ITN actually believed a real discussion could
occur in this thread.

Do you or anybody actually think each manufacturer
thinks it can compete globally if cheaper labor and
cheaper benefits (like zero) beats their prices ??

The textile industry is the prime example going
back to the 1700s emerging wherever labor is cheapest.

 

[Cosmo]

I was out of line, apologies to DB and the mods.

Thanks, ITN. Apology greatly appreciated. I hate having to treat grownups like they are kids so I, too, apologize for being a bitch about it. The fighting is getting on my last nerve. Cosmo

 

[Canucklehead]

RE: What's up with Immigr

Apology accepted, ITN

Politics is nuts at the best of times so if you feel you need to tear a strip off someone, so long as it's civil and directed at the opinion, not the member, I have no problem with it. If it HAS to get personal... we have Wreck Beach for just such occasions 8)

 

[I think not]

Yeah again, like jimmoyer mentioned I was hoping this thread wouldn't turn to crap, but I admit I took part in making it so, sorry again. Even adults need spanking on occassion. Anyways. I'll do better.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

Hey Canucklehead, give ITN a little more mercy.

Jimmoyer ... Canucklehead did give mercy. It was me that was ready to start whopping people with the wizzie stick.

 

[jimmoyer]

Hey Sanch, your post was well reasoned, despite
your disagreement with me.

Actually a very good post.

But your good points do not speak to the fact that
having illegal immigrants live in the shadows, fearing
discovery, fearing penalties, fines, AND deportation is
not good for THEM, nor good for us.

Nor is amnesty going to be the only possible solution,
either, for the latino community is not monolithic
and many legal latinos, and many Americanized latinos
who actually own property on the border do not
feel safe with desparate immigrants walking around
on their property.

Huge percentages are good workers.
Huge percentages are criminals.
Huge percentages are desparate and that makes
their behavior look risky for those who see it every day.
Huge percentages will work.


We do need to welcome them.

The right way.

For all of us.

That's why:

The Wall.

For it will be no different than any nation requiring
YOU to travel through customs. This is reasonable.

For your country.

It's stupid if your next door cranky neighbor built
a customs entry way.

 

[Kreskin]

I got an idea, get the illegals to build the wall.. there are millions of them. Only the ones working on the wall can get amnesty after it's built. When they're done that one they can start on the north wall, sounds like perpetual employment to me. 8)
Everybody happy now?

That is an interesting idea.

 

[jimmoyer]

LOL, Amik and Kreskin.

They will build tunnels and ladders, but not a wall.

That's not their job.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

LOL, Amik and Kreskin.

They will build tunnels and ladders, but not a wall.

That's not their job.

Oh they will build anything that comes with a paycheck. It's like organic pesticide.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Israel is building a wall, Saudi Arabia is building a Wall so if the United States is building a wall along the Mexican border to secure it's borders then there's nothing wrong with that. The cost of the wall could be much as 8 Billion.

 

[Jay]

It's not enough you just spout bullshit, you have to post it twice?

It's spring time...he thinks this is a garden.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: What's up with Immigr

I asked a question and got shit on instead of an answer, why is it necessary to export American production offshore and who does it serve.

ITN you accused me of racism and bullshitting in the same thread, and I'm not guilty of either.

I'm assuming that you don't come from a farming community , the old saying of cream rising to the top has nothing to do with racism, the preferred topping for oatmeal porridge was and is cream, in unhomoginized milk it (the cream) rises to the top, similarly in many human undertakings the cream (the bright ones) rise to the top regardless of colour or racial background, that you confused my use of the term is perhaps because of where you come from, I don't know I'm not familiar with your hood.

 

[I think not]

DB, I already apologized, I can't do anything beyond that, other than ignore your posts, which I will try my damnest to do from now on.

 

[sanch]

Jim I was assuming perhaps incorrectly that the Wall was an alternative to the amnesty bill. I like the overall idea of the amnesty bill. But the logistics are formidable mainly because the documentation industry that shows duration of work and stay has been in full swing since the last amnesty. Mexicans have been preparing for this moment for a long time. It is going to be difficult to tell someone who has been here 2 years from someone who has been here 7. This as far as I know only applies to Mexicans and they are by far the greatest number of illegal’s. The solution would be to simply give all Mexicans amnesty and it could be justified on the basis that Mexico belongs to NAFTA.

Then NAFTA should be rewritten so that a North American security zone could be created where individuals in this zone could move freely from one country to the other the way they do in the EC now. Before this could occur the playing field would have to be leveled. Real development would have to be undertaken in Mexico so that prices and wages were on parity with those in the US and Canada. Development would also create jobs and reduce the need to migrate.

This way Mexico would be included in North America’s Security plans and Mexico would be a buffer to ensure that drug dealers and illegal immigrants from the south do not use Mexico to enter the US. It would be very difficult for them to use Mexico as a transit zone if Mexico was fully developed. And you are right Latin American is not monolithic and very diverse and Mexicans can easily tell the difference between a Columbian and a Guatemalan.

Countries beginning with Guatemala and Belize that wanted to join the pact would have to develop economically and prove they are secure before being admitted. The goal would be to create one very secure economic zone in the western hemisphere.

 

[Curiosity]

Information from Mike Waller, Ph.D. - Authority on Mexican National Constitution Regarding Immigration - reported on the evening news just now. I am typing it from memory.

*Admittance for tourism travel to Mexico is granted through
driver's license;
*Stay within Mexico beyond 60-90 days mandates obtaining a
Visa which has definite time limits as decided by the authorities;
*Stay beyond Visa limitation mandates heavy fine and/or jail;
*Mexico has military stationed at both borders between U.S. and
Guatamala and anyone who crosses illegally is jailed and is
considered a felon with penalties attached;
*A foreigner can become a "citizen" of Mexico, but all foreign born
have no rights such as those born in Mexico. The advantage is
that a foreigner can work and live in Mexico as an "almost citizen";
*Protests are subject to fine and/or jail;
*Mexico deports more illegals than the U.S.A. annually;
*It is common policy in Mexico to encourage immigration to the
U.S. of its poorest citizens - who are literally dumped at the
borders to become the responsibility of other nations;
*Citizenship (once granted) can be rescinded at any time at the
discretion of the Secretary of the Interior of Mexico;

This is the "bare bones" of Mexico's Constitutional preamble regarding foreign participation in that country.

 

[darkbeaver]

Beav darlin the Cold Wars over, gone, dead, fini'. Canada nor the US will never be a commie state.

Why can't you understand that medicare and vacation pay and unions and labour laws and corporate regulation and the things we do for ourselves as citizens are not rotten stalinist ideas.
I really get twisted out of shape when people critisize thier own hard won rights as citizens of Canada without any understanding of where they come from or who had to die to give them to us.