What's up with Immigration in the US?

[jimmoyer]

Well of course THE WALL can be defeated and overcome.

Of course.

It's a process of counter measures.

I say build the Wall anyway.

It's not about ALL OR NOTHING.

It's about doing something.

I find value in the Wall by making it simply inconvenient
for illegal entry. Of course it won't stop half a million.

But just because it won't be perfect you don't do anything at all ??

Give me a break.

Give me a Wall.

Let's start.

Once we start getting control of the border, we can
then honor and love those who come to our country
and allow them to live openly and not in the shadow
of fear.

By the way, this is quite a complicated issue, and
I certainly do honor how Congress reflects the natural
complicated issue of this.

1, The Wall.
2. Then Welcome Them.
3. Then make Mexico the World King of Manufacture.

 

[Kreskin]

I was listening to talk radio the other day. The guest was a writer and historian. He said the sign of empire decline is the building of walls. He went into more detail and examples than my lunch-hour brain could handle but the correlation between wall building and decline of great empires was kind of eerie.

 

[Kreskin]

How do you make Mexico the manufacturing capital of the world?

 

[jimmoyer]

That, Kreskin, is an old paradigm.

In fact if that's your conclusion about Walls and how
it correlates to an old paradigm in history, then you
are foreordained to be stuck in history and never
consider the paradox of the future.

Shaking your tree for a moment, man.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

That, Kreskin, is an old paradigm.

In fact if that's your conclusion about Walls and how
it correlates to an old paradigm in history, then you
are foreordained to be stuck in history and never
consider the paradox of the future.

Shaking your tree for a moment, man.

And what have thee for fruit to twine thy juxtapose?

 

[jimmoyer]

LOL, my inquiring Kreskin.

We have learned countless numbers of times when
the people and the leaders could not predict
accurately the coming events, the coming trends.

We have learned that ironically, from history itself !!!

And so we will learn a new paradigm about WALLS.

The first clue was the Israeli wall.

Now, please bear with me and keep your thoughts
about the Isreali WALL good or bad for another thread.

Bear with me.

That's the first wall in history that STOPPED people
namely suicide bombers from coming IN.

The old paradigm in history was a WALL stopping people
from LEAVING.

The new PARADIGM is stopping people from COMING.

Let's do this:

1. Build the Wall.
2. Welcome Them.
3. Make Mexico King of Manufacture.

Think about it instead of wanting some long winded
explanation which I can thoroughly provide, but I got
mercy and won't do it unless upon urgent and sincere
request.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

LOL, my inquiring Kreskin.

We have learned countless numbers of times when
the people and the leaders could not predict
accurately the coming events, the coming trends.

We have learned that ironically, from history itself !!!

And so we will learn a new paradigm about WALLS.

The first clue was the Israeli wall.

Now, please bear with me and keep your thoughts
about the Isreali WALL good or bad for another thread.

Bear with me.

That's the first wall in history that STOPPED people
namely suicide bombers from coming IN.

The old paradigm in history was a WALL stopping people
from LEAVING.

The new PARADIGM is stopping people from COMING.

Let's do this:

1. Build the Wall.
2. Welcome Them.
3. Make Mexico King of Manufacture.

Think about it instead of wanting some long winded
explanation which I can thoroughly provide, but I got
mercy and won't do it unless upon urgent and sincere
request.

I don't think Israel is on the list of great empires.

 

[jimmoyer]

Get unstuck about great empires, Kreskin.

This is about something much less majestic.

This is about something simply practical.

Is a Wall practical ?

Hell no.

But no wall at all ?

Highly impractical.
'
So get on with this hat trick:

1. Build the wall.
2, Welcome Them.
3. Make Mexico King of Manufacture.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

Get unstuck about great empires, Kreskin.

This is about something much less majestic.

This is about something simply practical.

Is a Wall practical ?

Hell no.

But no wall at all ?

Highly impractical.
'
So get on with this hat trick:

1. Build the wall.
2, Welcome Them.
3. Make Mexico King of Manufacture.

Which political party is taking this up?

 

[jimmoyer]

Unfortunately, Kreskin, that hat trick is eluding all
of the political parties in America.

Each wing of each party is taking up one of those points,
but never all 3 together.

However, you would be surprised how many of the
WALL supporters will gladly welcome Mexicans to live
in the open in America.

You would be surprised how much America wishes
to do this right.

By the way, I am infinitely amazed how the latinos
dropped the Mexican flag last week and embraced
so easily the American flag as it marched in the streets.

Word gets around fast.

And it's not all manipulative finesse.

Latinos believed it was wise on a deeper level.

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

I was listening to talk radio the other day. The guest was a writer and historian. He said the sign of empire decline is the building of walls. He went into more detail and examples than my lunch-hour brain could handle but the correlation between wall building and decline of great empires was kind of eerie.

Yeah. Another sign of Empire decline is surrender to barbarian invasions, should'nt they do something about that? :lol:

 

[Amik]

I got an idea, get the illegals to build the wall.. there are millions of them. Only the ones working on the wall can get amnesty after it's built. When they're done that one they can start on the north wall, sounds like perpetual employment to me. 8)
Everybody happy now?

 

[I think not]

To answer Kreskin's question directly as to why they are "allowed" to hire illegal immigrants, the answer is, they aren't. Hiring illegal immigrants carries a $10,000 fine.

So what is the solution to hiring illegal immigrants and not get fined? Why pay them "off the books" of course. Most employers are small businesses, landscapers, construction workers (as in body labor), moving companies. They pay the immigrants cash, when you pay cash, there is no record of employment.

The small business gains from this in multiple ways, no social security tax, no workers compensation cost, no liability insurance cost per worker, no medicare tax etc....

Most illegal immigrants are not skilled workers, they are labor. There are many that choose to make something of themselves and learn a trade, go to school and so forth. These workers go to the IRS and issue a Tax Indentification Number or TIN, it is NOT the same as our Social Security Number (Your Social Insurance Number). TIN's are issued to anybody all over the world to conduct business in the US and pay taxes.

My position is Amnesty, it's simple math really, the cost to deport en masse all th eillegal immigrants from the US has been calculated to be around $240 billion. Now round up all the illegal immigrants, make them legal, make them pay taxes, chances are our deficit will go down.

 

[annabattler]

The Americans have twice offered amnesty(and citizenship) to illegal Mexican immigrants.
And during WW11,they imported Mexican workers to help with the war effort(factories,food production and the like)...and then,sent them BACK.
For Mexico,it means emptying villages...but lots of money sent home from the United States.
It seems to me that the "illegals" are performing jobs that most Americans don't want or won't do...mostly backbreaking agricultural work. The same thing is true in New York City,where the "underground" jobs are performed by mainly Asian illegals.
As long as employers are prepared to hire illegals, then surely the illegals cannot be faulted. Of course,the hiring of illegals puts more money in the pocket of the employers...lower wages,no health care,very poor working conditions,etc.

 

[sanch]

Well if a wall is built to stop people from moving across the Mexican border then the reaction might be to construct barriers limiting foreign capital access to Mexican markets and resources. Foreign capital and the way it is invested is extremely disruptive in Mexico and contributes to the displacement of agricultural workers and is a catalyst for migration. So build a wall and where is this labour set in motion by capital manipulation going to go? Mexico DF, Guadalajara? Maybe but those cities are already congested.

Any attempt to close the border presents huge problems for the Mexican government. The remittances Mexican migrants send home from the US are substantial and support many families with no other income. Access to the US market functions as a social and political release valve. Shut the valve without reforms and there will be big consequences.

Some possible reactions of the Mexican government besieged by angry peasants and workers. Nationalization of dollar accounts and homes of US retirees. Nationalization of the maquilladoras and other foreign controlled industry in Mexico and this would include the agri-business that supplies veggies and tomatoes to US grocers keeping the cost of domestic food consumption in the US and Canada very low.

For the US the wall would be a challenge to maintain. Mexicans with no other economic prospects would likely get involved in the drug trade and they would continuously look for weaknesses in the wall. Food costs in the US would skyrocket by as much as 400% as a result of either nationalization or sabotage in Mexico. The US economy would suffer immediately as disposable income would decrease to the point people would have no money left over to purchase cars, new computers, etc. There would likely be a global recession. And yes there would be severe shortages of labour for menial but essential jobs in the US.

The point is that a somewhat open border with Mexico subsidizes our care free lifestyle. Close the border and there will be immediate consequences.

 

[Jay]

Why doesn't Mexico simply adopt some peasant form of communism?

 

[sanch]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

Why doesn't Mexico simply adopt some peasant form of communism?

They had that with the ejido system until NAFTA. It was intended to break up the large landed estates. It did though leave the best land in the hands of the old ruling class and so many peasnats just got access to scrub land with very low yields. Mostly they grew corn for subsistence.

 

[Curiosity]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

The Americans have twice offered amnesty(and citizenship) to illegal Mexican immigrants.
And during WW11,they imported Mexican workers to help with the war effort(factories,food production and the like)...and then,sent them BACK.
For Mexico,it means emptying villages...but lots of money sent home from the United States.
It seems to me that the "illegals" are performing jobs that most Americans don't want or won't do...mostly backbreaking agricultural work. The same thing is true in New York City,where the "underground" jobs are performed by mainly Asian illegals.
As long as employers are prepared to hire illegals, then surely the illegals cannot be faulted. Of course,the hiring of illegals puts more money in the pocket of the employers...lower wages,no health care,very poor working conditions,etc.

Anna

I had never heard of this importing Mexican labor during WWII - that is really interesting and I wonder if some of the men stayed on because they served in the armed forces.

Is there anywhere I can read up on this history of the Mexican people in the U.S.????

Currently employers do hire illegals and do not report them thus saving them the money they have to contribute to their "retirement" or "medical" or "welfare" or "injury" assistance...all of the insurance coverage - but not all Americans get the whole package either.....

Thing is with the current group Americans pay for the education of the children, the older kids get cheap or sponsored university education, the medical expenses for a Mexican family are huge because they have so many pregnancies and with children there are lots of doctors' health care visits as well...and the American people at large pay for these items, not the "employers who get cheap labor". That is what many Americans (at least the ones I speak with) feel is wrong with the system.

The Mexicans send a great deal of money home to the families they left behind too thus increasing the economic spending money of the people living there - Fox counts on it. He encourages migration, illegal or otherwise.

The guilt (if we have to pick one) actually lies with the employers who are willing to hire people at poverty wages, treat them badly, work them hard, don't cover them with any kind of insurance and think nothing that the American people themselves are picking up the tab to keep these people fed, housed, educated, medicated, etc. etc. There's something wrong with this picture !

But if you can, please direct me towards the WWII situation information - that is totally new to me.... thanks! WC

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: What's up with Immigr

If the United States had not destroyed the aspirations and self determination of central and south America over the last hundred years they would not now be suffering the mass migration of latinos into continental America, the sustinance
stolen from them in the first place would have kept them in thier own lands. They are in a very real sence following thier own looted assets. This is another problem inherant in the form of capitalism entrenched in the US, America has allowed the corporations to systematically drive the unit cost of labour down below what is necessary to live the American dream. Big money's not going to allow any tampering with the virtual free labour offered by slavery,
America is trapped by it's own greed and there is no way out, none.

 

[Jo Canadian]