What would YOU want to hear at church?

adopted

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Every time science explains one of your challenges you guys dredge up something else and insist that if science doesn't already have an explanation for it, or can't instantly produce one, divine design must be right.

That may be the case with some Christians. Others, however, are delighted when science finds explanations -- that's what science is for. And that things can be explained does not frighten our faith, for we find that God made his universe quite discoverable and explorable. It is compatible with our worldview. What we do find, however, is that no scientist (Christian included) is free from bias or political agenda. You may feel frustrated a scientist who is motivated to use science to prove God. That's fair. It is equally annoying when another scientist allows her political or ideological persuasion to influence her "science."

For example, the freedom of inquiry is an honorable pillar that under-girds scientific progress. But we see a political movement that says, "if you believe in 6-day creation, you are not a reputable biologist... for what reason? because the definition of a reputable biologist is one who does not believe in 6-day creation." And so there is a mainstream politically-correct agenda, and there is social misbehavior comparable to grade 8 children fighting for popularity. And if science is anthropomorphized, he hangs his head in shame, because his students have lost sight of why he exists and are instead acting like babies while mixing in tidbits of good science.

The arguments you've advanced so far amount to the argument from design and the god of the gaps argument, with a few logical fallacies like begging the question thrown in. None of them go anywhere useful, they explain nothing while claiming to explain everything, and cutting off attempts at finding better ones. If biology had accepted the divine design explanation for the flagellar motor, nobody would have bothered looking for the real one. If you want to understand biology and evolution, or anything really about the natural world around you, religion's not the place to look.

Is it necessarily the correct strategy for a man or woman to navigate life by starting with science and using it as a springboard to answer all the big questions and from this launch his/her entire worldview and lifestyle?

I have not here, necessarily, been attempting to prove the existence of God from scientific arguments, though I do find reasonable and intuitive discussion there.

Science, in the first place, never pretended to answer the big questions, as if it were philosophy. There are people a lot smarter than me (and smarter than Richard Dawkins) who have grappled with the questions of "why are we here" and "how ought we to live," and they didn't assume that looking at rhinoceros poop under a microscope would lead them to the answers. But the likes of Dawkins have raised up a generation that somehow believes that the starting point to all the big questions and answers is science.

In practice, people form their worldviews mostly based on what their parents taught them, their social interactions with siblings and other human beings, and much thought inside their God-given faculties that (though lacking precision) in many ways transcend science, and then these people bring their worldviews into the arena of science, and they attempt to explain and navigate the worldview questions using science, as if that's where they had actually started, when we know otherwise.

Hitchens had a brother, right? Two guys growing up in the same environment, both atheists at one point. One became a Christian. I'm not going to dream of saying that scientific reasoning caused him to convert to Christianity. It's way bigger than that. Along these same lines, I'm not going to even pretend to convert you to Biblical Christianity using scientific arguments.

I'm going to declare what I believe to be true, as you do, and as do all in this forum -- this is our democracy. If anything ever persuades you to Biblical Christianity, it will be the will of the sovereign God -- the same one who blinded Saul of Tarsus and who unshackled the Christ from the tomb -- that sovereign God has determined it from some point that transcends this dirt, this time, this universe, and this conversation.

Yes, it does, and that makes it a logically indefensible position, but it's not the position of most atheists I've encountered. There's a subtle but important distinction between firmly believing that there is no god and simply not believing that there is one.

So, they shouldn't call themselves "atheists," but rather "agnostics."
 

adopted

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The more stuff science is able to explain, the smaller gods are and they are approaching invisibility.

That sounds nifty, but it suffers an enormous fall under the weight of the reality of increasing numbers of men and women around the world embracing God. Carl Sagan believed that science would erase religious superstition from the world, but he found that it did not. Christ is large as ever. This isn't just about statistics either, it gets personal for Christians. Do you realize how crazy it sounds to hear a man say that the divine is becoming smaller, when you are personally experiencing the greatness of God in increasing measure? Of course, that isn't scientifically quantifiable -- and neither is God -- but various things, such as the needs of your soul, transcend this universe and therefore transcend science.

If God and Christ are superstition, then science ought to make them go extinct. But they aren't going extinct. And atheists are still the least trusted people on earth, whether they're scientists or not.
 

L Gilbert

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That may be the case with some Christians. Others, however, are delighted when science finds explanations -- that's what science is for. And that things can be explained does not frighten our faith, for we find that God made his universe quite discoverable and explorable. It is compatible with our worldview. What we do find, however, is that no scientist (Christian included) is free from bias or political agenda. You may feel frustrated a scientist who is motivated to use science to prove God. That's fair. It is equally annoying when another scientist allows her political or ideological persuasion to influence her "science."
Fortunately, whatever bias or agenda may creep into research, the truth surfaces eventually anyway, because science is self-correcting, unlike religion. Not only that but some people actually love science and have no wish to see it sullied by bias and agenda.

Is it necessarily the correct strategy for a man or woman to navigate life by starting with science and using it as a springboard to answer all the big questions and from this launch his/her entire worldview and lifestyle?
It is if they wish to understand the realities of the physical world around them and learn how to question what they find curious, have the tools to go about investigating what they find curious.

In practice, people form their worldviews mostly based on what their parents taught them, their social interactions with siblings and other human beings, and much thought inside their God-given faculties that (though lacking precision) in many ways transcend science, and then these people bring their worldviews into the arena of science, and they attempt to explain and navigate the worldview questions using science, as if that's where they had actually started, when we know otherwise.
Sometimes. Others learn to think for themselves and question things.
BTW, my parents gave me my faculties.

So, they shouldn't call themselves "atheists," but rather "agnostics."
Nope. Atheist = one who does not believe in deities. Like I said, disbelief is not a belief. Atheists simply don't believe. Agnostics don't know if there are deities or not and think that humans could never know gods anyway. Big difference.
 

TenPenny

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That sounds nifty, but it suffers an enormous fall under the weight of the reality of increasing numbers of men and women around the world embracing God. Carl Sagan believed that science would erase religious superstition from the world, but he found that it did not. Christ is large as ever. This isn't just about statistics either, it gets personal for Christians. Do you realize how crazy it sounds to hear a man say that the divine is becoming smaller, when you are personally experiencing the greatness of God in increasing measure? Of course, that isn't scientifically quantifiable -- and neither is God -- but various things, such as the needs of your soul, transcend this universe and therefore transcend science.

If God and Christ are superstition, then science ought to make them go extinct. But they aren't going extinct. And atheists are still the least trusted people on earth, whether they're scientists or not.


I dont think most people know who is an atheist.
 

L Gilbert

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That sounds nifty, but it suffers an enormous fall under the weight of the reality of increasing numbers of men and women around the world embracing God. Carl Sagan believed that science would erase religious superstition from the world, but he found that it did not. Christ is large as ever. This isn't just about statistics either, it gets personal for Christians. Do you realize how crazy it sounds to hear a man say that the divine is becoming smaller, when you are personally experiencing the greatness of God in increasing measure? Of course, that isn't scientifically quantifiable -- and neither is God -- but various things, such as the needs of your soul, transcend this universe and therefore transcend science.

If God and Christ are superstition, then science ought to make them go extinct. But they aren't going extinct. And atheists are still the least trusted people on earth, whether they're scientists or not.
I was speaking in terms of credibility, not belief.
At one time, most of the humans in the world thought the planet was flat. That's what the belief was. Now we know the credibility of that idea.
 

adopted

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Fortunately, whatever bias or agenda may creep into research, the truth surfaces eventually anyway, because science is self-correcting, unlike religion. Not only that but some people actually love science and have no wish to see it sullied by bias and agenda.

I agree. Scientists have been embarrassed before. I suspect evolution will be found the greatest embarrassment of our century.

Good point about religion not being self-correcting. Of course, truth itself doesn't need to be corrected.

It is if they wish to understand the realities of the physical world around them and learn how to question what they find curious, have the tools to go about investigating what they find curious.

Sometimes. Others learn to think for themselves and question things.

I hope you're not implying or suggesting that atheists and agnostics have a monopoly on curiosity or on "thinking for themselves."

Nope. Atheist = one who does not believe in deities. Like I said, disbelief is not a belief. Atheists simply don't believe. Agnostics don't know if there are deities or not and think that humans could never know gods anyway. Big difference.

Okay, you might be right on the definition there. I've met atheists who define it rather as a positive declaration that there is no God, this being their statement of faith.

I was speaking in terms of credibility, not belief.
At one time, most of the humans in the world thought the planet was flat. That's what the belief was. Now we know the credibility of that idea.

The scientific evidence exterminated the false belief (about the flat earth) though, but that's not happening with God. That's what I'm saying.
 

L Gilbert

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I agree. Scientists have been embarrassed before. I suspect evolution will be found the greatest embarrassment of our century.
On what do you base that suspicion on? Faith?

Good point about religion not being self-correcting. Of course, truth itself doesn't need to be corrected.
True, it doesn't. But then what is that truth based upon? Is it based upon what is true or what we THINK is true?

I hope you're not implying or suggesting that atheists and agnostics have a monopoly on curiosity or on "thinking for themselves."
Oh, not by a long shot.

Okay, you might be right on the definition there. I've met atheists who define it rather as a positive declaration that there is no God, this being their statement of faith.
Me, too. I used to be one of those types of atheists. lol

The scientific evidence exterminated the false belief (about the flat earth) though, but that's not happening with God. That's what I'm saying.
Give it time. We've been around for about 5 million years. In that time, countless religions have popped out of the woodwork and died.
 

JLM

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The scientific evidence exterminated the false belief (about the flat earth) though, but that's not happening with God. That's what I'm saying.

And it won't happen in our life time. It won't happen until all the mysteries are otherwise satisfactorily explained. Whether there is a God or not I don't know, but there definitely has to be a supreme being, as man is too stupid to run a planet.
 

adopted

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On what do you base that suspicion on? Faith?

I am extremely confident in Christ; however, I don't see it as a requirement for Him to exterminate the theory of evolution, until, of course, the whole world is consumed in fire. So, I'm putting a little faith in Science, that science will most likely figure this out and eventually overpower the political-correctness problem.

True, it doesn't. But then what is that truth based upon? Is it based upon what is true or what we THINK is true?

Well, isn't that why people sit around and debate things in forums? ;) Some would say that there is no absolute truth. Others would disagree on what that truth is, though they would confess that it does exist quite without any of our help.

Give it time. We've been around for about 5 million years. In that time, countless religions have popped out of the woodwork and died.

I am confident that the kingdom of Christianity will never die, because I am persuaded that the One who preserves it is the same one through whom the worlds were formed, and so His kingdom is less shakable than the very foundation of the universe. Oh, men will come and say, "I'm going to tear down this religion!" The mighty Roman empire once said that, but where are they today? Many others have come and gone. Satan himself thought he had conquered Christ when he beheld him hanging on the cross, mocked and dying. The prophets remain correct in what they announced.
 

L Gilbert

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I am extremely confident in Christ; however, I don't see it as a requirement for Him to exterminate the theory of evolution, until, of course, the whole world is consumed in fire. So, I'm putting a little faith in Science, that science will most likely figure this out and eventually overpower the political-correctness problem.
lol Well, in the history of this planet, things evolve because they can adapt, which is what the theory says. It isn't that the fittest or the smartest survive, it's the most adaptable. Evolution is fact. We can watch it in action. It is the mechanism by which populations of virii morph into different populations which can survive antibiotic attack, for instance. They adapt and overcome.

Well, isn't that why people sit around and debate things in forums? ;) Some would say that there is no absolute truth. Others would disagree on what that truth is, though they would confess that it does exist quite without any of our help.
Yeah. Cool, huh? We all have different opinions based upon different things.

I am confident that the kingdom of Christianity will never die, because I am persuaded that the One who preserves it is the same one through whom the worlds were formed, and so His kingdom is less shakable than the very foundation of the universe. Oh, men will come and say, "I'm going to tear down this religion!" The mighty Roman empire once said that, but where are they today? Many others have come and gone. Satan himself thought he had conquered Christ when he beheld him hanging on the cross, mocked and dying. The prophets remain correct in what they announced.
lol People have a tendency to think bigger and more is better. So we had a few religions with many gods. Along comes dude who says, nah, there's only one god and it is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, etc. so my god can beat the crap outta any and all of your gods, sort of thing. Most people prefer to be on the "winning side" and who can beat such an overpowering god?
 

adopted

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lol Well, in the history of this planet, things evolve because they can adapt, which is what the theory says. It isn't that the fittest or the smartest survive, it's the most adaptable. Evolution is fact. We can watch it in action. It is the mechanism by which populations of virii morph into different populations which can survive antibiotic attack, for instance. They adapt and overcome.

You're right about that. It doesn't take millions of years either. And Darwin didn't dream up "adaptation," people already knew about that. This stuff is science, and I agree. What I disagree with is that all living organisms have a common ancestor.

lol People have a tendency to think bigger and more is better. So we had a few religions with many gods. Along comes dude who says, nah, there's only one god and it is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, etc. so my god can beat the crap outta any and all of your gods, sort of thing. Most people prefer to be on the "winning side" and who can beat such an overpowering god?

Dude didn't come along. Adam knew there was One God. Noah knew it. Abraham knew it. Ruth knew it. Hannah knew it. The righteous were expectantly awaiting the Christ long before He came.

But you're right, it's normal to want to be on the winning side. That's what I want.
 

L Gilbert

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You're right about that. It doesn't take millions of years either.
Evolution varies, yes. Human evolution is not the same rate as evolution for virii.
And Darwin didn't dream up "adaptation," people already knew about that.
Darwin collected data and used it to explain natural selection. Natural selection favors adaptability.
This stuff is science, and I agree. What I disagree with is that all living organisms have a common ancestor.
Oh. Well, you'll have to find someone with more depth in genetics to show you how to deconstruct DNA back to its origin.



Dude didn't come along. Adam knew there was One God. Noah knew it. Abraham knew it. Ruth knew it. Hannah knew it.
According to the Bible. See this is the other side of the coin from the atheist who "knows" there are no gods. How did those people you mentioned "know"?
The righteous were expectantly awaiting the Christ long before He came.
So we are told by the Bible.

But you're right, it's normal to want to be on the winning side. That's what I want.
And you are hinging your bet on a big "maybe". I prefer betting on sure things and science is more sure about things than assumptions are.
 

adopted

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I thought one must be selfless? You'r batting average on Xian behaviour is a tad wanting...

I was referring to the winning side against Satan.

So we are told by the Bible.

And the Bible is the best-preserved history book ever. See, we value eye-witness accounts of things, unless it's about the God we hate.

And you are hinging your bet on a big "maybe". I prefer betting on sure things and science is more sure about things than assumptions are.

Actually not. Faith is a gift, and if you've received it, you've received it, just like eyesight.
 

Dexter Sinister

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So, they shouldn't call themselves "atheists," but rather "agnostics."
No, the roots of the words mean, respectively, without god, and without knowledge. The agnostic position is that the existence or non-existence of god cannot be known with certainty. The common atheist position I described, often called the weak atheist position, is simply that the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim that there is a god are not sufficient to justify accepting it as true, i.e. we don't believe it. The strong atheist position, which as I indicated I find logically indefensible, is the positive assertion that the claim is false.

And the Bible is the best-preserved history book ever. See, we value eye-witness accounts of things...
We shouldn't. Psychology has made it pretty plain that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, and the Bible has been subject to a great many additions, deletions, and emendations over the years. In most cases we have no idea who the original authors were, or what their original texts said, we have no originals. There are many inconsistencies among the ancient sources, some with serious doctrinal implications. Very little of it was eyewitness anyway, and certainly not the four Gospels, and about half the letters attributed to Paul are not his. Check out Dr. Bart Ehrman's books Misquoting Jesus and Forged. He's a serious and credible biblical scholar at the University of North Carolina who's studied the ancient sources and made a distinguished career out of puzzling out where the Bible came from and what it really means. He's also a former fundamentalist Christian in the American Baptist mode whose biblical studies led him to apostasy, an uncomfortable and painful story you'll find described in his book God's Problem. You can find him on YouTube too.

I Faith is a gift, and if you've received it, you've received it, just like eyesight.
Faith is the permission religious people give each other to believe strongly in something when reason and evidence fail. It's a delusion.