What should be the objectives of any tax-funded space program?

Machjo

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In another thread, there is talk of Canada spending more on space exploration. While I'm not against space exploraiton per se, I do believe that its objectives would need to be clearly defined so as to ensure the bigest bang for the buck. Among some objectives that I could see as legitimate would be:

1. telecommunications-satelite research, along with parallel alternative research to find if there may be less expensive alternatives not requiring expensive space launches, such as:

1.1. the possibility of establishing telecommunications reception towers on mountain tops. Some spinoff tech from that could include highly advanced aircraft capable of maneuvering mountains in bad weather, vertical take off and landing, carrying heavy payloads and maintain stability even in bad weather. If such a method could be found to be cheaper and more efficient than sending satellites to space, then it could give a return on the investment by eliminating the need for more expensive space launches. For future space and interplanetary exploration, such tech could also be useful to develop aircraft for planets that might have much harsher weather conditions than earth, or which have too many natural satellites that could interfere with orbiting artificial satellites. This tech could also be easily transferable to search and rescue an police agencies.

1.2 The possibility of establishing towers via unmanned space launches to the moon without leaving space debris. Seeing that telecommunications satellites eventually fall into orbit, such a tower could last much longer and thus possibly save money. The ability to develop rocket boosters that could be sent back to earth could also be useful tech for a more advanced space-faring society in future, seeing that without solving space debris, such a society would quickly get booged down as incresed debris would eventually stall all space exploration for safety reasons.

My guess is that sending telecommunications satellites to space is probably the cheapest option right now, and so I'd likely prefer funding that over the otehr two options below it. But should it be found not to be the case, then definitely we ought to switch. We shouldn't be inveting i all three though, but only one of them, depending on which one research shows to be the most efficient option. Also, the spinoff benefits should never become the reason for these programs, since as mentioned previously, spinoff investments are just that, spinoofs and not the main investment, and so never efficient investments if viewed as an objective in its own right.

2. Landsat technology, such as weather satellites, etc. to study climate, fish stocks, which provide valuable data for agriculture, fisheries, etc.

So essentially, beyond telecommunications satellites and information gathering satellites turned towards earth, I'd say say any such agency's research budget ought to stop to that for now.

Sure research is needed on many fronts. But on the space-research front, that really is the only space research I see as being valuable right now. There is plenty of other research NASA is involved in that other departments could do instead. It it does not directly invovle space tech, then why not let the agriculture or other appropriate ministry deal with it to ensure it's not too theoretical but practical research instead.
 

Tonington

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Space research routinely delivers technological fixes to problems on Earth, and derived from problems in space. It's not always obvious which technologies will work, and which will not for applications back on ground.

But very clearly the science and technology have positive benefits.

I work in a field where the science is driven by valuation, and I can tell you it is lacking in imagination. I don't think that space studies would return nearly as much value if we get economists involved with their net present values....
 

Machjo

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Space research routinely delivers technological fixes to problems on Earth, and derived from problems in space. It's not always obvious which technologies will work, and which will not for applications back on ground.

But very clearly the science and technology have positive benefits.

I work in a field where the science is driven by valuation, and I can tell you it is lacking in imagination. I don't think that space studies would return nearly as much value if we get economists involved with their net present values....

It would seem Ironside's link to the NASA website in another thread would prove you wrong. For instance, it's not NASA that developed powertools, but Black and Decker. Certainly NASA would have hired Black and Decker with a clear mandate to develop practical power tools, and not just to fiddle with all kinds of nifty ways they can use them. Heck, if that were the case, some researcher could have decided just for fun, regardless of practical application, to build a flashlight powered by human fesces. It could work and well too, but not very practical.

Same with the water filtration and insulation. They each involved work contracted out to private companies, each with a clearly defined objective to solve a specifically defined practical problem tht NASA was facing, and that where much of our useful civilian tech comes from today. The only product NASA has developed that is of use to the average person and that could not have been produced more efficiently by many if any others is satellite technology. The reasons for this are:

1. It served a clearly defined practical purpose (telecommunications and geological information for TV, phones, the internet, weather and safety warnings, agriculture, fisheries, etc.) and,

2. it fell well within NASA's range of specialization (satellite technology to be launched into space, precisely what NASA is geared for).

As for spinoff tech, they'd be achieved far more cost-effectively as direct investment. For instance, rather than develop the Hubble space telescope and then adapt it for medical research, much more money would have been saved had that research money been geared towars medical mocroscopic research from the beginning. This would have saved money on two fronts:

1. on not having to then adapt the tech, since it woudl already originally have been developed for that practical purpose,
2. on not sending a space telescope to space to look at cool and interesting stuff no doubt, but of no practical use here on earth.

The money spent on (1) building the Hubble and (2) sending the Hubble to space, and (3) the money spent on adapting it to medicine, are three wastes of money. Through direct civilian research, medical microscopes could have been directly developed without having to send a useless aleit entertaining telescope to space.

So I totally disagree. We do need economists to look at how this research could be more efficiently managed to ensure a return on the investment.

If it wasn't for Allouette none of us would have been able to watch Tommy Hunter live.

My point exactly. The Allouette is a useful and practical piece of tech for the reason you just cited. though even then, I'd say those who benefit directly from the Allouette should pay for it. In other words, instead of taxpayer money paying for it, how about raising cable fees? That way it would be fair to all in that it would be more user pay. Clearly those who don't watch much TV should not be paying for it. That said, I fully agree that I should have to pay a higher phone bill or internet bill to help fund satellite technology for the purpose. I totally disagree though with my taxes payng for it, since if taxes pay for it then those who never use the internet aren't stuck subsidizing my internet use. I'd have no qualms about paying higher phone and internet fees if I'm using them, but do object to my taxes payig for it. That's the difference.

Now, how has the Hubble telescope benefitted us? If it is so beneficial, then why could NASA not copyright its pictures and sel them. And if it makes enough money, then it culd use that money to build another telescope, seeing how profitable it is. Beyond that though, taxes should not pay for it.

Those satellites that could benefit all of us, such as Landsats, I could see taxes paying for. But that's it. Or I suppose if the police and other government agencies use the internet too, then they could pay for it too, meaning indirect tax subsidization. However at least most of the funding should come from those of us who use the internet, not those who don't.
 

petros

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When it comes to research investment profits always supercede practicality and the betterment of mankind.

If Jonas Salk patented the polio vaccine would polio still be around today?
 

Tonington

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It would seem Ironside's link to the NASA website in another thread would prove you wrong.

I have no idea what he posted, but I can assure you I'm not wrong. Let's list all of the things made possible, or improved upon by technology developed for space, in no particular order:

  1. satellites (how many trillions of $ has that development churned out?)
  2. medical imaging
  3. infrared thermometers
  4. fire resistant clothing
  5. smoke detectors
  6. polarized sunglasses
  7. cordless tools
  8. modeling programs, now producing automobiles with far less wind resistance.
  9. thermal clothing
  10. shock absorbing material, developed by the aeronautical industry now in bike helmets, hockey helmets, baseball helmets, etc.
  11. advanced plastics
  12. lasers
The list is really long. NASA even has an office that grants awards for best inventions, and best software. You can read about some of the inventions here:
NASA - Invention of the Year Award Winners
 

Machjo

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I have no idea what he posted, but I can assure you I'm not wrong. Let's list all of the things made possible, or improved upon by technology developed for space, in no particular order:

  1. satellites (how many trillions of $ has that development churned out?) Yes, useful indeed.
  2. medical imaging. Could have been done by a ministry of health for a fraction of the cost.
  3. infrared thermometers Could have been done on earth for a fraction of the cost.
  4. fire resistant clothing Could have been developed for firefighters instead of astronauts just as easily.
  5. smoke detectors. Could have been developed by a ministry of education for schools or by a tranit authority for subways at a fraction of the cost.
  6. polarized sunglasses. Could ahve been developed by a ministry of health for a fraction of the cost.
  7. cordless tools. Developed by Black and Decker.
  8. modeling programs, now producing automobiles with far less wind resistance. developed in a wind tunnel at a fraction of the cost. No need to go to space for.
  9. thermal clothing. Could have been developed by Mountain Equipment co-op.
  10. shock absorbing material, developed by the aeronautical industry now in bike helmets, hockey helmets, baseball helmets, etc. Could have been developed by the motorcycle or sports industry at a fraction of the cost.
  11. advanced plastics. Could have been developed though direct investment in the development of advanced plastics.
  12. lasers. Could have been developed by other industries too.
Sure some of these technologies NASA likely had no choice to develop. Great. Added bonus, but not the primary reason for space exploration. In most cases, more efficent means could have been devised.
 

Tonington

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[Sure some of these technologies NASA likely had no choice to develop.

So? Why is benefit conditional on whether or not it was derived from applied science?

Great. Added bonus, but not the primary reason for space exploration.

Ancillary benefits are still benefits. And it's still useful to study space. Do you use any form of communication that relies on signals from satellites?

In most cases, more efficent means could have been devised.

Such as? NASA already has a platform for studying cutting edge technology. If you can think of other labs better suited with the same equipment, the science community is all ears.
 

petros

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Space Tourism will be a big money maker in the near future as technology derived from the NASA, ESA, E.European, and Asian space programs go public.
 

Praxius

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What should be the objectives of any tax-funded space program?

Simple. Any money going towards a space program via taxes, should go towards researching how to get your tax payers off of Earth and able to colonize another planet.

After all, We will eventually have to leave this planet for one reason or another in order to survive. Even if we're lucky and don't kill ourselves, or don't all die of a plague, or wiped out by a comet, the sun will eventually die, and if we don't find the means to leave when it's time, we'll die along with our sun, and our planet, and pretty well every other planet in this solar system.

Forget about funding programs to make memory foam pillows in space or how ants colonize in zero gravity..... get some real work done.

Otherwise, don't ask for tax payer's money for your stupid ass projects in space.... burn your own money.

telecommunications and more towers and receptors to make your crackberry have better reception isn't my idea of tax-funded "SPACE" program

Go talk to Bell or Telus.
 
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damngrumpy

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We see all kinds of benefits just think Tang flavour crystals for your morning breakfast.
Yes it was a joke, poor one but a joke none the less.
There are things that a society funds that make life better for all in a country then there
are those things that certain people will gain the most from, and if we do it right just
maybe we could all benefit and have the science program too. For example if Shaw
or some other group were to benefit from the technology that tax money funded then
the taxpayers should receive a portion of the profits the new technology produced or,
we should treat this tax as an investment, by individual taxpayers. That would mean
at the end of the year all taxpayers could deduct the portion spent on a space program
and the companies that benefit from space exploration and research would have it
added to their income. As it is now, my government decided to make the investment,
they tax me for it and provide the benefactors with the results so they can improve their
profit picture and they charge us for the new services that come from that technology
that you and I paid to have developed. Either we share in the profit when that new
technology is shared with the corporations or we should get a tax deduction for our
investment. Why should the companies benefit at both ends of the equation at our
expense? The third option would be that the Canadian taxpayer would receive an
investment rebate check in the form of a dividend the same as should happen for
companies using our natural resources.