WHAT IS LEFTISM?

[Jay]

I'm not silly enough to go parachuting.

 

[I think not]

You should try it Jay, I broke my ankle when I was 21 doing that, of course I never did it again. But it was a pretty cool experience.

To comment on what you and Cosmo were tlaking about a little further. I'm curious why some people leaning towards the left presume leftists aren't religious?

I've known a great deal of left leaning people who are, maybe they werent die hard religious, but they did have faith. And I've also known many rightists that weren't.

Stereotypes are pretty foolish.

 

[Reverend Blair]

There are a lot of people on the left that are religious. The difference is that they recognize the importance of the separation between church and state.

The religious right, on the other hand, is very influential in the politics of the right and have little or no respect for the separation between church and state.

 

[I think not]

That's another stereotype. Many people on the right believe in the separation between church and state.

The ones with the bible in one hand and a gun in the other are typically the ones who don't.

 

[Jay]

Interesting ideas from the both of you, but...

I can't agree with the Rev that they believe in the separation of church and state as such, because from my experience the religious left believes they are doing God's work through social policy. So to say only the religious right has anything to do with politics is a stretch.

I'm under the impression that the right is paramount in the very idea of separation of church and state.

Now I know the first thing that comes to your mind in this context is the school system, prayer in schools, and evolution etc, but from my point of view, you can't have the government take over the school system, remove religion from it, and complain to the people who pay taxes to it that they can't have religion in schools. The simple way to solve that this issue is to find another way to direct money to schools.

You should try it Jay, I broke my ankle when I was 21 doing that, of course I never did it again. But it was a pretty cool experience.

I’m too much of a paranoid person to do anything like that. Jay hasn’t been on a plane yet because if it. I even turned down a free helicopter ride once because of my phobia.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Many people on the right believe in the separation between church and state.

Which is why I specified the religious right. Look at your Republican Party or our Conservative Party for examples.

I can't agree with the Rev that they believe in the separation of church and state as such, because from my experience the religious left believes they are doing God's work through social policy.

That's not accurate. There are also a lot of very non-religious people on the left, and there is nothing like the Moral Majority instructing their members to vote in certain members. The religious community does not have the influence on the left that they have on the right. The result is that religious people who feel they can do their gods' work through social programs are attracted to the left because of the programs, not the other way around.

 

[Jay]

"The result is that religious people who feel they can do their gods' work through social programs are attracted to the left because of the programs, not the other way around."

Like Tommy Douglas....

 

[Reverend Blair]

Yes, like Tommy Douglas.

 

[Jay]

"Though Lester B. Pearson's government enacted medicare on a national level, Douglas is credited with the title of "Father of Medicare" for starting it in Saskatchewan."

http://www.weyburnreview.com/News/2004/2004_48/TC-DOUGLAS-Greatest-Can.html

 

[Reverend Blair]

"Greatest Canadian". Now there's a list that you won't find any of the Harperites on.

 

[Jay]

All partisan politics aside.....


""The result is that religious people who feel they can do their gods' work through social programs are attracted to the left because of the programs, not the other way around.""

The point I'm trying to make is that this stament is not really true.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

"Greatest Canadian". Now there's a list that you won't find any of the Harperites on

That's because it's not a list, it is one man, and I am right here.

 

[Reverend Blair]

The point I'm trying to make is that this stament is not really true.

How so? He started the CCF. He never started leftism though, and he welcomed people from all beliefs.

 

[Jay]

He was a religious person who started the health care system, not a person who joined the left for the Health care system.

 

[Reverend Blair]

His push for universally accessible health care actually came from when he was sick as a child and his family couldn't afford a doctor. Not exactly a religious idea. You could more easily call it a Scottish idea, since he was in Scotland when it happened.

 

[Jay]

Well I think were missing the point here, so I'll drop it.


Here are some quotes form the man himself that I thought Canadians and perhaps others would appreciate.


Canada is like an old cow. The West feeds it. Ontario and Quebec milk it. And you can well imagine what it's doing in the Maritimes.
Tommy Douglas

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.
Tommy Douglas

I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. There are monuments all over the Parliament Buildings and I've seen what the pigeons do to them.
Tommy Douglas

Man can now fly in the air like a bird, swim under the ocean like a fish, he can burrow into the ground like a mole. Now if only he could walk the earth like a man, this would be paradise.
Tommy Douglas

The [Liberal] federal government's trouble is that they have a wishbone where they should have a backbone.
Tommy Douglas

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'm not missing the point at all, Jay. You are saying that just because Douglas was religious and a politician that he did not appreciate the separation of church and state. I am saying that he never tried to use his politics to push his religion.

 

[ElPolaco]

Prior to the advent of the "culture wars", many religious people felt comfortable on the left. A majority of the early British Labour party MPs were devout Methodists. In fact many of the early socialists in the party were from the middle class Weslyan Methodists and many of the trade unionists were from the working class Primitive Methodist denomination.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: WHAT IS LEFTISM?

Here are some quotes form the man himself that I thought Canadians and perhaps others would appreciate.

Have I mentioned how my mother went to school with Tommy's daughter Shirley in Weyburn?

Well I guess I just did...anyway, I like to post this every now and again, to keep it fresh in peoples' minds...

Mouseland

It's the story of a place called Mouseland. Mouseland was a place where all the little mice lived and played, were born and died. And they lived much the same as you and I do.

They even had a Parliament. And every four years they had an election. Used to walk to the polls and cast their ballots. Some of them even got a ride to the polls. And got a ride for the next four years afterwards too. Just like you and me. And every time on election day all the little mice used to go to the ballot box and they used to elect a government. A government made up of big, fat, black cats.

Now if you think it strange that mice should elect a government made up of cats, you just look at the history of Canada for last 90 years and maybe you'll see that they weren't any stupider than we are.

Now I'm not saying anything against the cats. They were nice fellows. They conducted their government with dignity. They passed good laws--that is, laws that were good for cats. But the laws that were good for cats weren't very good for mice. One of the laws said that mouseholes had to be big enough so a cat could get his paw in. Another law said that mice could only travel at certain speeds--so that a cat could get his breakfast without too much effort.

All the laws were good laws. For cats. But, oh, they were hard on the mice. And life was getting harder and harder. And when the mice couldn't put up with it any more, they decided something had to be done about it. So they went en masse to the polls. They voted the black cats out. They put in the white cats.

Now the white cats had put up a terrific campaign. They said: "All that Mouseland needs is more vision." They said:"The trouble with Mouseland is those round mouseholes we got. If you put us in we'll establish square mouseholes." And they did. And the square mouseholes were twice as big as the round mouseholes, and now the cat could get both his paws in. And life was tougher than ever.

And when they couldn't take that anymore, they voted the white cats out and put the black ones in again. Then they went back to the white cats. Then to the black cats. They even tried half black cats and half white cats. And they called that coalition. They even got one government made up of cats with spots on them: they were cats that tried to make a noise like a mouse but ate like a cat.

You see, my friends, the trouble wasn't with the colour of the cat. The trouble was that they were cats. And because they were cats, they naturally looked after cats instead of mice.

Presently there came along one little mouse who had an idea. My friends, watch out for the little fellow with an idea. And he said to the other mice, "Look fellows, why do we keep on electing a government made up of cats? Why don't we elect a government made up of mice?" "Oh," they said, "he's a Bolshevik. Lock him up!" So they put him in jail.

But I want to remind you: that you can lock up a mouse or a man but you can't lock up an idea.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Your mother is from Weyburn, Vanni? My stepmother is from there too.