WHAT IS LEFTISM?

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: WHAT IS LEFTISM?

It's silly that I have to defend myself from "QUICK SIX GUN POD".

I think she just doesn't like me and hadn't had coffee yet this morning.

Actually, Jay, it's not so silly ... as a new mod I've been spending time reading threads I don't normally bother with. I've been following your posts and you do like to stir things up. There's a difference between expressing opinions and baiting. To illustrate my point, I'm not sure what the comment about not having coffee has to do with the topic of leftism. Seems like it was designed to annoy Pea.

I'm big on the school of "let's all just get along". I am a leftist. Unapologetic, unashamed. But I find people who challenge my views in an articulate, intelligent, non-confrontational manner serve a great purpose in my life. They give me a forum in which to verbalize my beliefs, to examine them, to defend them. In doing this, not only am I offered the opportunity to consolidate a strong belief system, but it also gives others the chance to entertain my ideas. Whether the right wing contingent accepts or rejects my beliefs does not matter. What matters is a mature exchange of ideas and philosophies that serves everyone well. Anything that makes us think is good in my books.

Basically, lefism is development of individual freedom. It is a rejection of absolute values themselves. Nietzsche's famous "God is dead" statement suggests, quote, "it is time to transcend both the concept of God and the "good vs. evil" dichotomy found within most religions". It's about personal responsibility for living morally -- which means taking the time to define one's own morals clearly. To do so, one must put all influences to one side, step back from religious rhetoric, from popular opinion, from outside influence and find ones own moral compass.

Conservatism would rather have people blindly follow dogma than use any form of free thinking. It is safer, to be sure, since there is a lack of personal responsibility in this philosophy. It's a lot less work. But I do question any belief system that espouses bigotry, mysogyny and an exclusionary stand.

So, Jay, in this vein, how do you define leftism? And, for that matter, what moral compass do you employ?

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: WHAT IS LEFTISM?

I disagree with both. They are right wing pap.

Care to elaborate Rev?

 

[Cosmo]

"Whatever else the Leftist may be, the bedrock of Leftism is a strong dislike or even a hatred of the way the world is."

Not sure where you got the quote, I think not, but it is patently ridiculous! The bedrock of leftism is a striving for social justice, equality and freedom. If you define that as hatred of the way the world is, I think you are misguided. Making an effort to improve the way the world is should not be confused with the image of a tantrum throwing two year old these words invoke.

"I think the basic guide is that the further Left we go, the more government intervention in people's lives is demanded and practiced. All governments exercise power over people's lives in one way or another but the more Leftist you are, the more pervasive and all-encompassing you will want that government meddling, influence and direction to be."

Does anyone leaning left deny these two statements?

Government intervention is a fact of life, whatever political party is in power. Leftism is about reducing the amount of power a government wields in ones personal life. By its very nature, left leaning politics are about personal freedoms and having governing bodies support personal freedoms.

So I do deny these statements.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Care to elaborate Rev?

Oh what the hell?

"Whatever else the Leftist may be, the bedrock of Leftism is a strong dislike or even a hatred of the way the world is."

The bedrock of leftism is that things can be made better for everybody. That the world can be improved. It is a positive expression, not a negative one.

"I think the basic guide is that the further Left we go, the more government intervention in people's lives is demanded and practiced. All governments exercise power over people's lives in one way or another but the more Leftist you are, the more pervasive and all-encompassing you will want that government meddling, influence and direction to be."

This statement is just a complete load of crap. If you check the policies of leftist political parties, especially in Canada but also in the US, you will find that they spend far more time and energy defending individual and human rights than the right does.

For instance, it was the NDP that stood up to speak out against our rights-raping "anti-terrorist" bill. It is the NDP who have consistently opposed id cards containing biometric data. It is the NDP who have opposed the trappings of a police state. The Conservatives, on the other hand, have criticized the current government only for not imposing more measures to infringe on our personal rights and freedoms.

 

[Jay]

It's silly that I have to defend myself from "QUICK SIX GUN POD".

I think she just doesn't like me and hadn't had coffee yet this morning.

Actually, Jay, it's not so silly ... as a new mod I've been spending time reading threads I don't normally bother with. I've been following your posts and you do like to stir things up. There's a difference between expressing opinions and baiting. To illustrate my point, I'm not sure what the comment about not having coffee has to do with the topic of leftism. Seems like it was designed to annoy Pea.

I'm big on the school of "let's all just get along". I am a leftist. Unapologetic, unashamed. But I find people who challenge my views in an articulate, intelligent, non-confrontational manner serve a great purpose in my life. They give me a forum in which to verbalize my beliefs, to examine them, to defend them. In doing this, not only am I offered the opportunity to consolidate a strong belief system, but it also gives others the chance to entertain my ideas. Whether the right wing contingent accepts or rejects my beliefs does not matter. What matters is a mature exchange of ideas and philosophies that serves everyone well. Anything that makes us think is good in my books.

Basically, lefism is development of individual freedom. It is a rejection of absolute values themselves. Nietzsche's famous "God is dead" statement suggests, quote, "it is time to transcend both the concept of God and the "good vs. evil" dichotomy found within most religions". It's about personal responsibility for living morally -- which means taking the time to define one's own morals clearly. To do so, one must put all influences to one side, step back from religious rhetoric, from popular opinion, from outside influence and find ones own moral compass.

Conservatism would rather have people blindly follow dogma than use any form of free thinking. It is safer, to be sure, since there is a lack of personal responsibility in this philosophy. It's a lot less work. But I do question any belief system that espouses bigotry, mysogyny and an exclusionary stand.

So, Jay, in this vein, how do you define leftism? And, for that matter, what moral compass do you employ?

Well Cosmo, welcome back, and allow me to congratulate you on your new posting as a moderator.

I am a leftist.

This appears to be a prerequisite for the job.

To illustrate my point, I'm not sure what the comment about not having coffee has to do with the topic of leftism. Seems like it was designed to annoy Pea.

The comment has to do with the fact that Pea seemed a little grumpy today, and since it was earlier on in the day, I assumed that she hadn’t enjoyed her first cup of coffee yet. Basically I was making an excuse for her coming down on me this morning. I get a little grumpy too, and it's only human to do so, and if you have an addiction to caffeine, like many people, it can make you a bit irritable if you don't get a fix.

I'm big on the school of "let's all just get along"…. But I find people who challenge my views in an articulate, intelligent, non-confrontational manner serve a great purpose in my life.

Excellent, so do I. So forgive me when I call people on calling me and my kind "radical, and scum" I sure don't see how that language is lending itself to the "lets all just get along" thing. So as I see it, it is acceptable behavior, as demonstrated by moderators of this forum. I'm sure you understand.

Leftism to me is a bunch of people who don't believe in individual rights, as expressed through their contempt for private property, disrespect for security of the person, heavy taxes and limiting freedom of expression They believe they can run my life better than I can, and spend my money better than then I can. They want desperately to control things from the top down. They do not respect constitutions. They believe in free rides as a tool to garnish votes, even if the idea isn't true, (because someone is paying for it.) They hold tradition in contempt. They deceive to get their way. They invent the social systems like the public education system, and sell it as helping the poor, but in reality it is a way to control the system, the money in it, and the people it is to serve; a revolutionary idea if you get my drift. They don't believe in inalienable rights, and believe that my money is to be voted away in the House. They don’t believe in free markets…etc, etc.

Conservatives aren’t perfect, but they tend to lend themselves not to that which enslaves us, but to freedom of the person, and freedom of expression, and private property and security, etc, etc. If it wasn’t for conservatives, Stalinism wouldn’t have had much resistance from the west, it would be incorporated as a tool.


Again congrats…

 

[I think not]

Care to elaborate Rev?

Oh what the hell?

"Whatever else the Leftist may be, the bedrock of Leftism is a strong dislike or even a hatred of the way the world is."

The bedrock of leftism is that things can be made better for everybody. That the world can be improved. It is a positive expression, not a negative one.

However that statement speaks of how a leftist views the world as it is, not what you want it to be, the is the negativity involved.

"I think the basic guide is that the further Left we go, the more government intervention in people's lives is demanded and practiced. All governments exercise power over people's lives in one way or another but the more Leftist you are, the more pervasive and all-encompassing you will want that government meddling, influence and direction to be."

This statement is just a complete load of crap. If you check the policies of leftist political parties, especially in Canada but also in the US, you will find that they spend far more time and energy defending individual and human rights than the right does.

For instance, it was the NDP that stood up to speak out against our rights-raping "anti-terrorist" bill. It is the NDP who have consistently opposed id cards containing biometric data. It is the NDP who have opposed the trappings of a police state. The Conservatives, on the other hand, have criticized the current government only for not imposing more measures to infringe on our personal rights and freedoms.

They all play to the same tune because an elected leftist body is almost impossible, and I speak of national scales. And you have said so yourself repeatedly, you do not see the Liberals and the Democrats in the US as leftists.

 

[Reverend Blair]

However that statement speaks of how a leftist views the world as it is, not what you want it to be, the is the negativity involved.

That's not accurate. You are seeing the negativity because you refuse to see anything else.

They all play to the same tune because an elected leftist body is almost impossible, and I speak of national scales. And you have said so yourself repeatedly, you do not see the Liberals and the Democrats in the US as leftists.

Again that isn't accurate. We've had examples of provincial NDP governments for years in Canada. The Liberals under Pearson and Trudeau were also arguably leftist. There have been several leftist governments in Europe.

Your premise is wrong because you do accept politics outside of your immediate sphere as being valid.

 

[Cosmo]

Well Cosmo, welcome back, and allow me to congratulate you on your new posting as a moderator.

This appears to be a prerequisite for the job.

Thanks, Jay. I don't think it's a prerequisite -- I think it's just that the majority of people who frequent this forum do lean left. Also, I happen to know for sure Andem posted me as moderator because I tend to be fairly level headed, not interested in drama and have no particular bone to pick with anyone. He's busy and just needs people to do the job. I happen to be available. My politics didn't enter into our conversation when when we discussed my being a mod.

The comment has to do with the fact that Pea seemed a little grumpy today, and since it was earlier on in the day, I assumed that she hadn’t enjoyed her first cup of coffee yet. Basically I was making an excuse for her coming down on me this morning. I get a little grumpy too, and it's only human to do so, and if you have an addiction to caffeine, like many people, it can make you a bit irritable if you don't get a fix.

Ok, I stand corrected. I just know there has been less than good natured back and forth between you two ... the same comment I might perceive as a joke from someone proven to be friendly toward me might be taken as a jab from someone proven to be less than friendly. Glad to hear it was not a jab.

... So forgive me when I call people on calling me and my kind "radical, and scum" I sure don't see how that language is lending itself to the "lets all just get along" thing. So as I see it, it is acceptable behavior, as demonstrated by moderators of this forum. I'm sure you understand.

Ya, Jay, I do understand. I think things have gotten testy around here -- on both sides -- and I hope you are willing to lend yourself to repairing this. You are obviously intelligent and articulate and although I strongly disagree with your politics, there is no reason for character assassination -- by you or of you.

Your comments about leftism do make sense. I agree that leftism could be perceived that way ... although you must agree that no matter what political party is in power, they are going to use our funds to further their own agenda. I think the question that need be addressed is the agenda, not the implementation of it.

I am a lesbian. The right contingent tells me I am not allowed to marry, that I am deserving of hate crimes committed against me because, by their standards, I am a sinner. That makes it personal for me. I don't agree with every policy espoused by the left, but the right wing views on human rights (or lack there of) do impact me on a personal level. It's not theoretical for me so that is where my strongest arguments come from.

I don't understand how the right can justify the lack of human rights. Perhaps you can explain it to me ... without religious rhetoric. Not everyone is traditional christian but we all get to vote.

 

[peapod]

Jez louise, lunch break and what do I find..Jay trying to twist again.
Jay I had no problem with your comment this morning, which was the following:
Well you can't win for loosing. You’re either a fascist, or a neo-con....

But then you decided to add this Jay,

Or as the Rev indicates so eloquently (as always), scum

Now I did not see the Rev make any such comment to you, yet you posted that to bait him or goad him.

Again, please come right out and say what you are implying, if you are implying that andem is bias in choosing his moderators, stop hinting and like my papa says, look someone straight in the eyes and say what you have to say. Your snipping is well frankly "bitchy" cosmos probally likes that tho, she is a dyke, and well you know they like that kind of stuff. :wink:

 

[WIAF]

Re: RE: WHAT IS LEFTISM?

I think the one thing that can be said about the left and the right and it be 100% true is that neither side likes the other and neither side will acknowledge any right doing of the other and jump al lover the bad doings.

Another interesting observation is that both sides seem to understand the thinking and motivation of the other side better than their own!

:wink:

 

[peapod]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Waif I want that signature!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[WIAF]

Hi peapod,

Sorry, but I'm using it for now. I'll see if I can't unearth another equally worthy "gem" from the Pretend Scientist for you!

:twisted:

 

[peapod]

Thanks waif Another good man 8) And how are our friends that lovable gang over at monsanto :wink:

 

[WIAF]

Here you go, peapod. Just for you. 8)

Remember to attribute this quote in your signature to "A Pretend Scientist". Can you imagine a true scientist with an attitude like this?

:twisted:

"The pathogenic bacteria issue (of organic food) is very real regardless of how many articles say it is not so."

 

[peapod]

Well yes I can waif, they call themselves intelligent design :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: thanks it now has the status of being in peapod signature folder :wink

 

[WIAF]

Well yes I can waif, they call themselves intelligent design :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, I've noticed your exploits on that thread. I'll likely join you should things heat up again. 8) G'nite!

 

[peapod]

G'nite to you waif 8) cool dog you got there

 

[Jay]

yet you posted that to bait him or goad him.

No I didn't, and the Rev doesn't need bait, (And I think that if the Rev had a problem with all this, he would have said so. I doubt he needs you to defend him though, even when he doesn't need to be defended.)

Again, please come right out and say what you are implying, if you are implying that andem is bias in choosing his moderators, stop hinting and like my papa says, look someone straight in the eyes and say what you have to say. Your snipping is well frankly "bitchy" cosmos probally likes that tho, she is a dyke, and well you know they like that kind of stuff. :wink:

Why are you telling me how to post my posting?

I'm jesting when I said that about the moderators. Any one with half a brain can see that all the moderators are lefties. It was a joke Pea!!

I wasn't raised by your Papa, so I don't have to follow his proverbs. If I want to hint at something I will, and isn't it amazing you call my posts "snippy" and "bitchy". Well if you aren’t the most “snippy” and “bitchy” when it comes to my posts.....

If Cosmo enjoys that sort of behavior, and you don't, please hand my file to her, drop the case move on to another.

 

[Jay]

Thanks, Jay. I don't think it's a prerequisite

Your very welcome.....I was jesting about the prerequisite of course.

He's busy and just needs people to do the job. I happen to be available.

He never calls me anymore when he needs help… :wink:

I am a lesbian. The right contingent tells me I am not allowed to marry, that I am deserving of hate crimes committed against me because, by their standards, I am a sinner.

I understand your objection to the right’s ideal of keeping the definition of marriage traditional, but I don't understand what hate crimes are being committed against you (or you’re are deserving of).With the governments of the world trying to ban the emotion hate, I think we have to be careful using the word hate these days because of the legal consequences it carries, if you know what I mean.

By their standards you might be a sinner....

Perhaps you can explain it to me ... without religious rhetoric.

....and this is the only bit of religious rhetoric I will give you." All have sinned and come short of the glory of God", and as Jesus noted, "those who have not sinned cast the first stone."

Many of the religious side of the fence are modern day Pharisees (if you don’t know what a Pharisee is let me know) and yes they probably believe your a sinner, but your not alone as we are all sinners. So therefore it isn’t really all that bad.

I don't understand how the right can justify the lack of human rights. Perhaps you can explain it to me ... without religious rhetoric. Not everyone is traditional christian but we all get to vote.

I'm not sure that I follow you here. I don't think that the right is lacking in human rights. But if you’re talking about the definition of marriage thing...I think it is a stretch to say it is a human right to have all of these unions called "marriage" as such....if they were denying you the ability of freedom of association or a job over it I would agree.

It has been only a short while that homosexuality has been (sort of) accepted by Canadian society at all. And IMHO we live in a rather "progressive" country when it comes to policy on such matters and in reality your abilities to function in that capacity aren’t being hampered by anyone, even the right. We have to remember there are still a lot of older people in this country, who aren’t going to change their mind about this issue, so we are going to see resistance to the issue, and the old still have a voice and a vote. IMHO a compromise could have been reached on this issue, some time ago, and this would be a dead issue, but that isn’t the climate that exists.

It’s funny that this should come up this week, as I was having a rather lengthy conversation with a good friend (who is gay) of my wife's and mine on the weekend about this stuff. It’s a different story though….he was telling me how trashy the gay community was, and I had to remind him of how trashy hetros are…..quite the different perspective when honesty is the playing field rather than who’s right and who’s wrong. Thought I would throw that in.

Have a good day all.

 

[peapod]

If You go parachuting, and your parachute doesn't open, and your friends are all watching you fall, I think a funny gag would be to pretend you swimming 8)
Gotta love those jokes and jests :lol: :lol: