Yeah, I wonder how he self-identifies? Former-Liberal? Trudeau is safe from this one again too.
WE really need to get rid of this guy
- Thread starter Retired_Can_Soldier
- Start date
Okay, Devil's advocate here but from what I've found looking into the guy who gave the speech, yes he joined an SS/Nazi division, but there's no proof he did anything that I've found?
Also:
"
The Canadian Commission of Inquiry on War Crimes of October 1986, by the Honourable Justice Jules Deschênes, concluded that in relation to membership in the Galicia Division:
The commission considered the International Military Tribunal's verdict at the Nuremberg Trials, at which the entire Waffen-SS organisation was declared a "criminal organization" guilty of war crimes.[57] Also, in its conclusion, the Deschênes Commission only referred to the division as 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Galizische Nr.1), but rejected such a principle."
So I've more questions now about this whole situation. As in, so he was a soldier - did he do anything atrocity wise? If not, then what's the uproar for? Did he join specifically to defend his homeland against Russia? How is that any different than anyone else that joins a military at 18 to fight 'for their people'?
And don't go off on this is me being pro-Nazi. I'm not, absolutely not. But there's more nuance to this than I thought there'd be and now I'm wondering if the backlash should even exist.
Also:
"
The Canadian Commission of Inquiry on War Crimes of October 1986, by the Honourable Justice Jules Deschênes, concluded that in relation to membership in the Galicia Division:
The commission considered the International Military Tribunal's verdict at the Nuremberg Trials, at which the entire Waffen-SS organisation was declared a "criminal organization" guilty of war crimes.[57] Also, in its conclusion, the Deschênes Commission only referred to the division as 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Galizische Nr.1), but rejected such a principle."
So I've more questions now about this whole situation. As in, so he was a soldier - did he do anything atrocity wise? If not, then what's the uproar for? Did he join specifically to defend his homeland against Russia? How is that any different than anyone else that joins a military at 18 to fight 'for their people'?
And don't go off on this is me being pro-Nazi. I'm not, absolutely not. But there's more nuance to this than I thought there'd be and now I'm wondering if the backlash should even exist.
BYJAMES OLIVER
Yeah… I hear what you’re saying, but there’s not much nuance to the term “Nazi” at this point.
Yeah, tough choices they had to make.
This Ukrainian soldier, in the context of the time that he served, had to decide who the biggest threat was at that point. Germany to the west or Russia to the east. Doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a patriot to the Ukraine, or that he didn’t serve honourably, but Nazi’s aren’t the hero’s of that story as it’s written at this point in our history.
Nobody (nobody honest about it) thinks you’re pro-Nazi. The backlash is over stupidity, and misdirected at Anthony Rota but he’s taking it for the team to protect the Liberal Brand and the PM. Rota is showing too much integrity to be a Liberal anyway, and falling on the sword, will get rewarded somewhere behind the scenes.
There’s a whole security net (no pun intended) from the RCMP & CSIS to Security Personnel as well as the PMO & the Privy Council who’s job it either is to Vet people or to ensure that vetting process has taken place…& that didn’t happen.
I get where you’re coming from, but nuance and Nazi/SS just don’t fit together in most peoples minds. Either they understand what a Nazi is, or they throw around the term as an insult, without really understanding what it means….But not shades of Nazism on a sliding scale.
It was a multi-level screw up, and it shouldn’t have happened but it did, and Rota accepted the responsibility, even though there were many many layers to ensure this never would’ve happened in the first place….Except that it did.
On a positive note for our current government, while this was happening, few were looking at the India goat-rodeo without any evidence offered for the allegations against this other nation, & fewer where looking at the Election Interference by China in 2019 & 2021 and that inquiry (& the year of stalling leading up to the decision to actually have one), and few where looking at inflation, interest rates, housing situation, carbon tax, grocery bills, and so on and so forth. It was a great “Look over there!!” Moment I guess.
Not misdirected; he invited him. It's on him.
Actually, not how I understand it.
Speaker wasn't 'reward' enough? How much more of a reward can he get after this?
And as Speaker of the House, Rota bypassed all that. It wasn't needed; likely now it'll be mandatory at all times.
That's true 'nuff, but it puts people who were just trying to survive at the time in a shitstorm.
I expect then that the soldiers who went to Iraq and Afghanistan will face similar in the future.
Again, as Speaker, he bypassed the checks, because nothing said they had to be if HE brought someone in. Least that's how I understand it, I could be wrong.
Five Eyes; and they don't need to offer evidence to the general public.
I heard PP was offered a chance to see it though, and he said no. Dunno if that's true but if so...
Guess they haven't advertised that one so much; thought they had it already?
Yes, Trudeau pushed inflation on the world.
Holding steady last I knew, though that could change thanks to the last couple of months.
That's a shitshow, I agree.
Shitshow 2.
Shitshow 3; we have a winner.
Not really, no.
Rota didn’t smuggle a 98yr into Parliament under his coat, with the wheelchair in his pocket. It happened on the floor of the house, and this Ukrainian veteran wasn’t up in the public gallery. There are checks and balances for security and vetting.
Think back to the Minister of Excuses (her name escapes me, but something to do with ‘chiggers’ or something like that) and her getting caught under oath lying about WE, and getting turfed out of Cabinet. Fades into the sunset…& the next time she pops up, she’s ‘chairing’ an inquiry for the Libs…Holy Cow!! Talk about landing on her feet! She’ll get her full golden parachute pension yet. If you take one for the team, and protect the quarterback, in politics you will get rewarded.
That didn’t happen though. Once Trudeau took it upon himself to make unsubstantiated allegations to the general public, in the media and in Parliament, that “not the business of the general public” concept went right out the window. To date, even after the very public allegations there’s been nothing but forward to substantiate or corroborating the allegations.
The unnamed leak (from a Gov’t source) to the CBC alluding to the Five Eyes also put forward nothing to corroborate or substantiate any evidence-less accusation that Trudeau made against India either.
The Canadian PM had a choice of lanes to pursue, one or the other, and he selectively chose both and neither, and that just doesn’t work. If you’re gonna shut up about any evidence, then you shut up about the accusation also until you can go public with both.
If something similar happened in this case, with respect to India, I haven’t heard about it yet, but that means little. I miss you a lot and I admit it.
Think back to the Minister of Excuses (her name escapes me, but something to do with ‘chiggers’ or something like that) and her getting caught under oath lying about WE, and getting turfed out of Cabinet. Fades into the sunset…& the next time she pops up, she’s ‘chairing’ an inquiry for the Libs…Holy Cow!! Talk about landing on her feet! She’ll get her full golden parachute pension yet. If you take one for the team, and protect the quarterback, in politics you will get rewarded.
You’re right, sort of. If this was kept out of the media, and out of the drama class, and Intelligence and Diplomatic representatives were allowed to deal with this, the yes, I completely agree with you!!
That didn’t happen though. Once Trudeau took it upon himself to make unsubstantiated allegations to the general public, in the media and in Parliament, that “not the business of the general public” concept went right out the window. To date, even after the very public allegations there’s been nothing but forward to substantiate or corroborating the allegations.
The unnamed leak (from a Gov’t source) to the CBC alluding to the Five Eyes also put forward nothing to corroborate or substantiate any evidence-less accusation that Trudeau made against India either.
The Canadian PM had a choice of lanes to pursue, one or the other, and he selectively chose both and neither, and that just doesn’t work. If you’re gonna shut up about any evidence, then you shut up about the accusation also until you can go public with both.
That was Chinese Election Interference information, which, if seen, and labelled top-secret, he would no longer have been able to discuss the matter, forfeiting his role as the opposition in Parliament.
If something similar happened in this case, with respect to India, I haven’t heard about it yet, but that means little. I miss you a lot and I admit it.
The Minister of Excuses I referred to above. Found her. Bardish Chagger. You can’t tell me if she wasn’t rewarded for protecting the PM, even though she was shuffled out’a Cabinet, etc…
Chaggers punishment over the WE goat rodeo (seriously, check out her testimony) removed her from cabinet, but pops her up out of the public eye again ‘Chairing’ the standing committee on foreign election interference?? Rewards for falling on the sword do happen.
Chaggers punishment over the WE goat rodeo (seriously, check out her testimony) removed her from cabinet, but pops her up out of the public eye again ‘Chairing’ the standing committee on foreign election interference?? Rewards for falling on the sword do happen.
Canadian lawmaker apologizes for inviting Nazi to Zelensky address
Speaker of the House of Commons says he did not know that 98-year-old Yaroslav Hunka had volunteered with Nazi army in World War II * PM Justin Trudeau calls the incident "extremely upsetting"
www.jpost.com
"In his apology, Rota emphasized that his office alone was responsible for not vetting Hunka adequately."
It's on Rota alone.
Welcome to politics on all sides.
Well first off, he brought it up to Modi at the G20, so... India knew beforehand for about a week at least, if not longer. Since they were not willing to cooperate with the investigation to prove or disprove anything, Trudeau went public. Stupid of him, I agree but there it is.
And considering where the intel came from, compiled information in the Five Eyes group, which IS an intelligence information gathering center, so it's not only Canada that can vet the info, I get why the information isn't just "tossed out" to the public.
And yet there is:
Hardeep Nijjar killing: US envoy confirms Canada got ‘Five Eyes’ intelligence against India. Top updates
India-Canada News Updates: Justin Trudeau claimed that Canada shared with India "weeks ago" evidence that it may have been behind the killing of Hardeep Nijjar.
But it's Indian news, so take with a grain of salt I suppose?
Unless it involves spies and The international game of politics, where everyone cheats (not my quote/idea), in which case this might have been a lob the ball to see if India fucks up the catch.
Considering some of the responses I've heard, they are either hiding something or guilty AF.
I knew he did it for that, yeah. But also for this...
Now Singh has seen it, but I'm not shocked by that at all, considering.
And looking into whether PP knew any of this, I found:
After briefing on intel, Singh says 'clear intelligence' India involved in B.C. killing
Federal NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said Tuesday he received an intelligence briefing about allegations that the Indian government could be behind the killing of a Sikh gurdwara leader in British Columbia.
Singh said Trudeau first told him and Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre about the allegations against India before sharing them publicly. Three days later, Singh received a briefing from Trudeau's national security adviser, Jody Thomas.
Singh told reporters Tuesday that he was able to request the briefing on the matter because of the top-secret security clearance he obtained to review foreign-interference materials prepared by former governor general David Johnston, who had been named as a special rapporteur to explore that issue. Johnston has resigned from that role.
The former governor general's report had concluded that Trudeau's government did not knowingly or negligently fail to act on foreign attempts to interfere in the last two federal elections.
He had also recommended against calling a public inquiry into the issue. The Liberal government ended up tapping Quebec Court of Appeal Justice Marie-Josee Hogue to lead one earlier this month after months of outcry from, and discussions with, opposition parties.
Singh said that after reviewing the confidential material he had access to from Johnston, he agrees a public inquiry into foreign interference is necessary.
Poilievre has so far rejected getting the clearance needed to review the top-secret annex from Johnston's earlier report.
Poilievre said Tuesday that he was offered a briefing similar to one B.C. Premier David Eby received on the matter.
He said he doesn't believe the briefing will offer any more substantial details on the allegation and would only force him to be tight-lipped about whatever he learned.
So, PP HAD the chance but because he'd have to keep quiet, he made the choice to not be informed.
It's not like it was being hidden from people totally, either.
Eby disturbed by CSIS briefing on Nijjar killing in Surrey
B.C. Premier David Eby says he needs more information from the federal government so the province can better protect people at risk.
I've spent since this came out arguing/debating/talking with people from India on youtube videos 'bout it. The fact they are fine with Modi being Authoritarian and a Nationalist ( https://www.internationalaffairs.or...uthoritarianism-in-india-under-narendra-modi/ ) and see nothing wrong with it just... honestly, scares the crap out of me, cause if India heads down that road, that's billions of people suffering more than they are now.
've been here, but trying to step aside from the GLBTQIA+ arguing for a while; to be Brit about it, it's 'bout done my head in. Though right now I'm... just trying to keep occupied doing things after having to put one of my dogs down yesterday.
That is the definition of falling on the sword. It wouldn't do much if he blamed Trudeau as he resigned.
I am sorry to hear that. My sincere condolences.
If it was Trudeau's fault in any way, sure, there'd be a point. The thing is, it wasn't really. But I bet from now on it's not only the Speaker's team that vetts people, but others too.
He had cancer and was terminal. But he kept eating the bandage and this time it just blocked him. In the end, it was better to just let him go.
Thanks... he was one of the first dogs I had, drove all the way to Wyoming to get him, there's already a massive change with the other dogs here.
Thanks Ron. Losing him was hard even if I knew it was coming. One way or another anyway...
When we had to put Pepper down in 2020, Silver was different for weeks after. She missed her buddy. They don't understand why they leave but don't come back.
I've two young Border Collies - 2ish - and older 8 year old and another husky who I got at the same time. She's 9 months older than he was, showing her age but she's still healthy so far. Bit deaf maybe - or it's husky selective hearing kicking in - but still good.
Both of mine are schnauzers. Pepper was a mix with a Boston Terrier. Silver is pure schnauzer.
Too sad.
We had to put our furbaby down earlier this year. He came up lame, and it wouldn't heal. X-ray showed his shoulder had dissolved from cancer. He ad some free range friends, so we left his body out where they could see and sniff to know he was gone. Neither has come back since.
Back to the ex Speaker and the Nazi topic...
Now Poland is working to extradite Hunka to answer for crimes:
On September 26, Polish education minister Przemysław Czarnek stated that his government may seek to extradite Hunka as a war criminal.[20] In a post made on the social media platform X (formerly known as Twitter), Czarnek said:[21][22]
Okay, so say it happens... what then?
To get into Canada, anyone who was part of that unit had to be carefully looked into. Had he been guilty of anything, considering the times, I would think it'd be easier to charge and trial then punish back then. But nothing like that happened. That doesn't mean he's not guilty of anything per say, BUT, it does go towards him already being checked over.
Did he join a Nazi unit in WWII - yes. That is an undeniable fact. Why? According to him, to defend his homeland against Russians. That is all we know for sure. Everything else is speculation. The best thing to do is to either open up the screening for when he originally came to the UK, then Canada, to prove how he got admittance, AND/OR hold a trial for him - whether in Poland or Canada - to determine if he was part of the massacres and what his role was, if he was there. But I'd also interject he's damned near 100, if he was found guilty of anything... what then? The more I've read about the situation, the more I think this was a genuine mistake by the Speaker, thinking only that this was a Ukrainian fighting Russia way back in WWII and wanting to show Zolenskyy some sort of respect or something, or perhaps show that the Ukrainian people have been fighting Russia for years. I don't think there was any true, genuine malice meant. Especially with Zolenskyy being Jewish!
But now it's out he was part of a Nazi group, so everyone is losing their minds over it without thinking, and sadly Putin now has "proof" that Kiev is apparently full of Nazi's.
For the record, I am just someone who gets that in war things get complicated the moment you join up and stuff can happen that can make ANY soldier appear to be a monster in the eyes of others, even if that's not the truth. The point is, we don't know, there are just assumptions, and sometimes even if someone did join a group linked to Nazi's in WWII, that doesn't mean they WERE a Nazi. If it comes out he joined the party, and fervently held to the beliefs, then YES, he'd be a Nazi.
I am also going to throw out that there's a big debate in the public now about the 'age/mentality of children to make choices', and while 18 is normally an acceptable age to be considered adult enough, there are those throwing out the idea of no, no, 23-25 should be the acceptable adult age, because brains aren't done developing until then. So since 18 is normally the minimum age of joining the military ( Be at least 18 years old (17 years old with parental consent), except: For the Paid Education programs — you may be 16 years old (with parental consent) For the Primary Reserves—you may be 16 years old (with parental consent) and must be enrolled as a full-time student. https://forces.ca/en/apply-now/ ) are they adult, or children? Would that factor into a time 80 years ago? What about today, modern day? Are 18 year olds now going to be pulled out of the forces? Can they be held accountable for their actions if their brains are still 'developing'?
See the rabbit hole?
In the end, despite his age, I do hope he either goes to Poland or if he can't travel to Europe, that a trial is held in Canada with Polish representation, to resolve the issue. At least then we can hear his reasons for joining and if he was a "Nazi", or just a kid wanting to fight for his home.
Now Poland is working to extradite Hunka to answer for crimes:
On September 26, Polish education minister Przemysław Czarnek stated that his government may seek to extradite Hunka as a war criminal.[20] In a post made on the social media platform X (formerly known as Twitter), Czarnek said:[21][22]
Okay, so say it happens... what then?
To get into Canada, anyone who was part of that unit had to be carefully looked into. Had he been guilty of anything, considering the times, I would think it'd be easier to charge and trial then punish back then. But nothing like that happened. That doesn't mean he's not guilty of anything per say, BUT, it does go towards him already being checked over.
Did he join a Nazi unit in WWII - yes. That is an undeniable fact. Why? According to him, to defend his homeland against Russians. That is all we know for sure. Everything else is speculation. The best thing to do is to either open up the screening for when he originally came to the UK, then Canada, to prove how he got admittance, AND/OR hold a trial for him - whether in Poland or Canada - to determine if he was part of the massacres and what his role was, if he was there. But I'd also interject he's damned near 100, if he was found guilty of anything... what then? The more I've read about the situation, the more I think this was a genuine mistake by the Speaker, thinking only that this was a Ukrainian fighting Russia way back in WWII and wanting to show Zolenskyy some sort of respect or something, or perhaps show that the Ukrainian people have been fighting Russia for years. I don't think there was any true, genuine malice meant. Especially with Zolenskyy being Jewish!
But now it's out he was part of a Nazi group, so everyone is losing their minds over it without thinking, and sadly Putin now has "proof" that Kiev is apparently full of Nazi's.
For the record, I am just someone who gets that in war things get complicated the moment you join up and stuff can happen that can make ANY soldier appear to be a monster in the eyes of others, even if that's not the truth. The point is, we don't know, there are just assumptions, and sometimes even if someone did join a group linked to Nazi's in WWII, that doesn't mean they WERE a Nazi. If it comes out he joined the party, and fervently held to the beliefs, then YES, he'd be a Nazi.
I am also going to throw out that there's a big debate in the public now about the 'age/mentality of children to make choices', and while 18 is normally an acceptable age to be considered adult enough, there are those throwing out the idea of no, no, 23-25 should be the acceptable adult age, because brains aren't done developing until then. So since 18 is normally the minimum age of joining the military ( Be at least 18 years old (17 years old with parental consent), except: For the Paid Education programs — you may be 16 years old (with parental consent) For the Primary Reserves—you may be 16 years old (with parental consent) and must be enrolled as a full-time student. https://forces.ca/en/apply-now/ ) are they adult, or children? Would that factor into a time 80 years ago? What about today, modern day? Are 18 year olds now going to be pulled out of the forces? Can they be held accountable for their actions if their brains are still 'developing'?
See the rabbit hole?
In the end, despite his age, I do hope he either goes to Poland or if he can't travel to Europe, that a trial is held in Canada with Polish representation, to resolve the issue. At least then we can hear his reasons for joining and if he was a "Nazi", or just a kid wanting to fight for his home.