Vote in House to extend commitment to Afghanistan

Knowing what we know now, should we extend our commitment?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
sanch said:
Taking an objective perspective entails considering the entirety of an operation. The war on terror, for example, has diplomatic, humanitarian and military components. One can disagree with the military aspect but if one in doing so simply dismisses the humanitarian and diplomatic achievements than one is not being objective.

Sanch, there is no war on terror, there is perpetual war of resource aquisition, but there is no war on terror. What diplomatic and humanitarian objectives have been served with the deaths of 1.5 million Iraqis, the spread of depleted uranium poison and the total destruction of the infrastructure of Iraq. That's war by terrorism.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
All I can say is that today, Canada is one of the weakest nations when it comes to handling/responding to military casualties...I have never witnessed such a weak public! kinda shamefull if you ask me...especially when you consider the proud history of this country.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
Does anyone remember why we are there? The Taliban supported a group of zealots who want to destroy our culture and lives. If we allow them to regain power we are fools.We went there because they support people who believe that it is godly to kill thousands of innocent people who do not believe in thier way of life. I really do like beer,music,educated women,and my own personal religion. I will not let anyone take that away and all you people that can't see that,you are either immoral or just morons. Truly,think about that next time you turn on the radio or open a beer or talk to your wife.Same sex marriage in Canada,ok,only between corpses in Afghanistan. Get off your pedestal, get your head out of the clouds,these radicals hate you and will kill you. If you cannot support our troops and way of life,shut up and let the clear thinking people of this country defend your right to be stupid.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
Re: RE: Vote in House to extend commitment to Afghanistan

wallyj said:
Does anyone remember why we are there? The Taliban supported a group of zealots who want to destroy our culture and lives. If we allow them to regain power we are fools.We went there because they support people who believe that it is godly to kill thousands of innocent people who do not believe in thier way of life. I really do like beer,music,educated women,and my own personal religion. I will not let anyone take that away and all you people that can't see that,you are either immoral or just morons. Truly,think about that next time you turn on the radio or open a beer or talk to your wife.Same sex marriage in Canada,ok,only between corpses in Afghanistan. Get off your pedestal, get your head out of the clouds,these radicals hate you and will kill you. If you cannot support our troops and way of life,shut up and let the clear thinking people of this country defend your right to be stupid.

right on, its like people dont care whats going on in afghanistan, they only care about defying the US, kind of like a inferiority complex is ya ask me

welcome to the board wally
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Why Harper is pressing for an extension
May 17, 2006. 01:00 AM
CHANTAL HÉBERT
Prime Minister Stephen Harper's decision to seek immediate opposition support for a two-year extension of Canada's mission to Afghanistan is first and foremost a blatant attempt to neutralize the issue until well after the next federal election.

It may be fair game politically, but the move also signals that the Conservative government does not expect public opinion to come around to a more positive view of the deployment as the human toll of the mission and its attendant trade-offs in terms of Canada's non-presence on other fronts become more apparent.

It is recognition on Harper's part that he cannot assume that multi-party support for the mission can be sustained for much longer under any scenario.

With some polls showing support dropping for the deployment, the government is basically attempting pre-emptive damage control by trying to force the opposition to shoulder part of the political burden of Canada's extended presence on the Afghan front line for its duration.

The rationale is that parliamentary support for an extension has probably already peaked and can only decrease as time goes on.

By putting the question of the future of the mission beyond its current expiry date of next February before the House of Commons today, Harper is asking the Liberals and the Bloc Québécois, in particular, to either put their money where their mouths so recently were or to eat their own lofty words.

Just a bit more than a month ago, the two parties outbid each other with arguments to support Canada's beefed-up military role in Afghanistan.

While both were careful to keep the option of their support for an extension open, precious little time has elapsed between one debate and the other.

If the Liberals and the Bloc will not now agree to an extension, they will have to explain how a mission they are on record as heartily backing only a few weeks ago is not worth supporting beyond the next nine months.

The choices facing the two parties are therefore stark:

They can turn on a dime and reverse themselves on the basis that the government is asking for a blank cheque or else help innoculate Harper against a potential backlash over the mission in the next election.

If they shift, they could be accused of putting partisan interests above their principles by bending to the political winds.

If they don't, they will be accused of ignoring the growing reservations of many Canadians.

As for the NDP, it will have to determine in very short order whether it moves from a position of vocal skepticism toward Canada's more robust role in Afghanistan to one of open opposition to an extended tour.

While the upcoming vote places the opposition parties between the rock of their recent qualified support for the mission and the hard place of their evolving partisan interest, none is more likely to feel the squeeze quite as much as the Bloc.

Opposition to the deployment runs highest in Quebec and among francophones.

A clear majority of Gilles Duceppe's supporters are against it, including many of his party's civil society partners.

By supporting an unpopular extension, the Bloc can only give more impetus to the ongoing debate about its relevance on the federal scene.

On the other hand, the government move to secure early approval of the extension may be good news for at least one of the front-runners in the Liberal leadership campaign.

Alone among all the contenders, Michael Ignatieff took part in last month's parliamentary debate and he came down squarely on the side of the mission.

His stance is reminiscent enough of his past support for the U.S.-led Iraq war to make it a lightning rod for some of his leadership opponents.

Liberal support of a two-year extension later this week could go some way to removing the mission's potential as a wedge issue in the campaign.

At a minimum, the debate will force the other leadership candidates to stand up and be counted on one side or the other on the issue.

The one thing this week's vote will not do, even if it is won by the government, is ensure that support for the mission does not continue to plunge.

As the evolving American debate on Iraq has demonstrated, public disengagement from a war can happen even in a relative political vacuum.
Chantal Hébert's national affairs column appears Monday, Wednesday and Friday. chebert@thestar.ca.

quagmire comes to mind. Let's not fool ourselves. We're being asked to clean up (pretend to clean up is probably more like it) a mess made by world powers with other things on their minds. The timing of this debates stinks to high heaven and has little to do if anything with practical considerations.
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
30
48
Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
RE: Vote in House to exte

Yep, coupled with the announcement of our taking over command of the mission 2008, we are getting handed the BAG on this one, hope we can "stay the course" or we'll be ninnies
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: RE: Vote in House to extend commitment to Afghanistan

Hank C said:
wallyj said:
Does anyone remember why we are there? The Taliban supported a group of zealots who want to destroy our culture and lives. If we allow them to regain power we are fools.We went there because they support people who believe that it is godly to kill thousands of innocent people who do not believe in thier way of life. I really do like beer,music,educated women,and my own personal religion. I will not let anyone take that away and all you people that can't see that,you are either immoral or just morons. Truly,think about that next time you turn on the radio or open a beer or talk to your wife.Same sex marriage in Canada,ok,only between corpses in Afghanistan. Get off your pedestal, get your head out of the clouds,these radicals hate you and will kill you. If you cannot support our troops and way of life,shut up and let the clear thinking people of this country defend your right to be stupid.

right on, its like people dont care whats going on in afghanistan, they only care about defying the US, kind of like a inferiority complex is ya ask me

welcome to the board wally

I don't think it's an inferiority complex as much as it is distain for the US...they can't stand the fact we are supporting our #1 ally; the number 1 ally they hate. It's about isolating ourselves from the US and sympathizing with Chavez. It's about being an antagonist pretending to be holding an independent point of view when all their really doing is attaching themselves to countries like Cuba and Iran.

Welcome to the board Wally.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: Vote in House to exte

mabudon said:
Yep, coupled with the announcement of our taking over command of the mission 2008, we are getting handed the BAG on this one, hope we can "stay the course" or we'll be ninnies

I saw that. Good snag, Sanch.

best we can hope for is the Liberals allow a free vote to sort out the idiots. the NDP will whip. don't know about the Bloc. whipped either way is my guess.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
darkbeaver said:
sanch said:
Taking an objective perspective entails considering the entirety of an operation. The war on terror, for example, has diplomatic, humanitarian and military components. One can disagree with the military aspect but if one in doing so simply dismisses the humanitarian and diplomatic achievements than one is not being objective.

Sanch, there is no war on terror, there is perpetual war of resource aquisition, but there is no war on terror. What diplomatic and humanitarian objectives have been served with the deaths of 1.5 million Iraqis, the spread of depleted uranium poison and the total destruction of the infrastructure of Iraq. That's war by terrorism.

I agree the war on terror is a sham. Dealing with terrorism mostly has to do with with responsible counter terrorism by way of domestic law enforcement. 911 could been avoided if they didn't take those FBI agents off from tracking the 911 suspects. If law enforcement did know of the suspects and wanted to track them, why are we in this mess? Why did they pull those FBI agents? It’s never been answered.

So unexplainable a decision that has resulted in two wars against differing nations, a shake up of an entire region, and maybe more conflicts to come.

In Spain they had their Al Qaeda bombing. They arrested the perpetrators and now they live as they have lived before. They aren’t involved in these wars and their way of life hasn’t changed.

War however does give cause to hate the west and the real irony of these wars is they have been such effective tools at recruiting people into Al Qaeda that they have turned what was once a small backwater group into an international menace. When it’s your hand that destroys the lives of people, you breed an ever repeating cycle of revenge.

No one can say Al Qaeda didn’t grow as an organization from these conflicts. No one can say that Al Qaeda has a smaller support base now that all this killing has occurred. It would be a real fudge of the truth to even say to me that these wars are mostly about terrorism. They aren’t even 50% about terrorism, and the lies for going to war with Iraq shows that it was never about terrorism with such an invasion but indeed a resource grab.

Before the US invaded Iraq, that country didn’t have suicide bombers and didn’t have Al Qaeda. Neither was Saddam threatening anyone anymore. Discovery through the invasion has proved he didn’t even have the capability to threaten anyone outside his borders. However, the US with their brilliance turned Iraq into a roadside bombing educational center.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html

It’s not like subversive tactics in dealing with an occupation are anything new. The french used terrorism against the nazis during their occupation and those that did are regarded as freedom fighters in the history books (The French Resistance).

Even Churchill had the English support subversive tactics in dealing with the nazis.

For the WWII Resistance movements, and for their British backers in SOE who had been ordered by Prime Minister Winston Churchill to "set Europe ablaze," they were freedom fighters. Their clandestine work of sabotage and ambush, destroying bridges and railroads, assassinating German officials and their local collaborators, was a wholly justifiable tactic of a war of national liberation. And it was the Nazi occupiers of Europe during World War II who characterized the work of the French and Czech and Polish Resistance movements, as backed by Britain's Special Operations Executive, as 'terrorism."

Quote: Copyright 2000 The Press Association Limited


I think it’s quite amazing how the politicians sold us wars on things they said were the reasons and now we are all supporting very different reasons.

Despots and dictators and regimes have all come and gone without removal through war but it seems western mentality now come to believe that it only comes about through force. Nobody seems to value other methodologies and a level of patience at dealing with such problems anymore. It has to be a “Now” situation and if that requires killing a lot of people to force an “ideal” through, you can count on war mongering politicians with the “war made easy technology” to do it.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
Hank,where did the people who knocked down the world trade centres train and live?Grow up and maybe grow a backbone,not everything that happens is some global conspiracy.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
It'll be easier for me to continue to support it if the motion fails.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
Re: RE: Vote in House to extend commitment to Afghanistan

wallyj said:
Hank,where did the people who knocked down the world trade centres train and live?Grow up and maybe grow a backbone,not everything that happens is some global conspiracy.

I thought we were arguing the same point?
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
The motion has passed.

The Conservative Party of Canada voted entirely in favour of the motion, and the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party of Canada opposed the motion; the Liberal Party of Canada chose not to whip members to vote either way, and many members voted both in favour of, and in opposition to, the motion. The motion passed by four votes.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
Re: RE: Vote in House to extend commitment to Afghanistan

FiveParadox said:
The motion has passed.

The Conservative Party of Canada voted entirely in favour of the motion, and the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party of Canada opposed the motion; the Liberal Party of Canada chose not to whip members to vote either way, and many members voted both in favour of, and in opposition to, the motion. The motion passed by four votes.

hmmm so what 25 Liberals voted in favor while the other 80 voted against? Kinda shameful when you consider this is the party that made the commitment, and now they are moving in the way of opposing extending the mission before it is completed. It shows the lack of a backbone, they simply want to win the election regardless of what happnes to our troops. For them its all about waving their hands than substance, kinda like how they bitched about the little flag tradition but are unable to grasp the real situation.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
RE: Conservative Merit

I would suggest that it's sort of funny how very few supporters of the Conservative Party of Canada on these forums can say anything positive about that party, and rather have to say negative things about the other parties in order to make their points.

I don't take issue with the Liberal Party of Canada having permitted a free vote on this motion; in my opinion, whipped votes should only ever occur on matters of confidence. In every other case, in my opinion, free votes would permit our Members of Parliament to better represent their constituents. This vote seemed to quite accurately reflect the citizens of Canada, given the very divided support that the mission in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan has at this time.