Venzuela leads the world against USA

Nascar_James

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#juan said:
Nascar_James

twenty five million people in Venezuela and your petition has 600 signatures, including Michael Murphy and Colin Bertram. Several of the petition signers said the saw the offences on television. You call that proof of anything. Keep trying.

It appears most of the folks on this post are sleeping under a rock when it comes to Chavez. For heaven's sake, haven't you folks been wacthing the news the past few years. Chavez's Human Right violations (killing and torturing his political rivals) was all over the news. There's no denying Chavez has committed these unacceptable Human Rights violations against his people. He should be arrested and charged.

Here's another link ...

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/venezuela/2002/10/09.html

Critique of the Human Rights Watch report on Venezuela
Human Rights Watch has just issued a report on Venezuela which I find extremely disappointing. Somehow, the call in April to defend the rights of Chavez and his supporters by HRW is not being applied to the defense of the opposition:

"the police detained several Chávez supporters and searched numerous homes without complying with basic standards of due process "

The Chavez Government has been overstepping due process and the Constitution with illegal arrests for weeks, this time around HRW says nothing about this. Why? The same can be said of the earlier call by HRW:

"The Venezuelan authorities should immediately conduct a thorough and impartial investigation to determine who is responsible for the killings and other serious human rights abuses committed during the recent political unrest"

No such an investigation has been carried out due to the fact that Chavez' MVR has blocked any efforts in the National Assembly (They have the majority to approve it!!!!) to establish an independent committee to determine the truth of what happened in April. In fact, all people jailed for the deaths in April were Government employees, including a City Council member. They were freed by a pro-Chavez Judge, an order that was rescinded by the Supreme Court which fired the judge that day. The judge was hired a week later by a pro-Chavez Mayor.

In its current report HRW says:

"We call on the international community, and the U.S. government in particular, to support efforts underway in Venezuela to promote a negotiated and peaceful settlement to the present political impasse within the framework of the Venezuelan constitution and the rule of law, including strict adherence to human rights principles"

But it fails to note that the Constitution has been violated repeatedly by the Chavez administration which controls the judicial and Congressional powers. The Chavez administration has been searching homes, detaining people and arresting people without following the law and the Constitution and nobody protects Venezuelans from that. Not a single home search or arrest has been witnessed by a representative of the Attorney General's office, as required by law and military police has been used against civilians, which is illegal. Civil Disobedience within article 350 of the Constitution is our only mechanism for a way out unless Chavez resigns.

"Both utilize tactics of inflammatory rhetoric and confrontation, creating conditions that are likely to lead to more violence"

The only group that has generated or encouraged violence is Hugo Chavez and his Government. There is no declaration or act by the opposition calling for violence. Frequently and as recent as today Hugo Chavez has called for people to defend his revolution with their blood and weapons. It is Hugo Chavez that has called for people to take over private property, which led to the death of two inspectors that were prospecting property for confiscation. All opposition marches have been extremely peaceful, the same can not be said of the bolivarian circles which have taken over violently roads in the city and staged violent demonstrations in which only once has the Government used force to stop them. But two weeks ago a peaceful march made up mostly of middle aged women was gassed by the National Guard which also used plastic bullets. Chavez had threatened us for two years with the weapons of the military. Here they are for the first time. Will there be more?

"Sectors of the opposition continue to seek President Chávez's removal prior to the end of his term, with little regard for the legality or constitutionality of how that goal is achieved"

Yes, the people want Chavez to leave because with his regular violations of the Constitution and violations of human rights in April his Government is no longer legitimate. The only way legally to get rid of Chavez is for him to resign or be tried. To be tried the Supreme Court has to allow a trial. Since he controls the Supreme Court, all suits against the President, including the one for crimes against humanity have been set aside or dismissed by the Venezuelan Supreme Court. So what are people to do? Wait until the Armed Forces are cleansed by Hugo Chavez? Or until the 12 year term of Supreme Court justices expire? How can we even have an election with a submissive electoral council?

"Far from providing fair and accurate reporting, the media by and large seek to provoke popular discontent and outrage in support of the hard-line opposition"

Where was HRW when Hugo Chavez forced the media regularly to show his four-five hour speeches under the threat of shutting them down?. Where was HRW when Hugo Chavez shut off the media on April 11th.? Where was HRW when Hugo Chavez addressed the nation on April 11th. while the peaceful demonstration was being shot at? Did they watch the Government channel during their stay in Venezuela? The Government channel reports daily the wonderful state of and economy that has shrunk by over 10% so far this year and with unemployment running at the highest level in 20 years, but yet HRW does not criticize them?Please!!!!!

"We also urge the Venezuelan opposition and government to accept an OAS "facilitator" as soon as possible to promote dialogue and a democratic solution to the present political crisis"

Up to now only the opposition has committed to signing the agreement. Hugo Chavez has not said once that he will sign it. Why is this? Who is against dialogue? The opposition which was selectively excluded from the dialogue commission in May, or the Government who picked who it wanted to have a dialogue with?

"Finally, we wish to underscore the crucial work being carried out by Venezuelan human rights organizations such as PROVEA, the Red de Apoyo, COFAVIC and the Vicaría Episcopal de Derechos Humanos. They are performing an important and difficult role in defending human rights in a polarized and complicated situation, and in promoting dialogue at the local level. The Venezuelan human rights community deserves the full support of the OAS's Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, and the international community more broadly"

The only part of the report we can fully agree with!!!!!! Does HRW point out how the Chavez administration regularly seeks to discredit most of these institutions? Why not? Why so gentle on Chavez and so harsh on the opposition? Being elected does not give the right to a President of violating the Constitution, the law and human rights almost daily!!!! Hitler was elected too!!!

Bad job HRW, shame on you!!!!!
 

neocon-hunter

Time Out
Sep 27, 2005
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RE: Venzuela leads the wo

Gee a blog :roll: from 2002 :roll:

I think you are full beans NJ (I hope you dont mind me refering to you as NJ) Why would Venezuela want the same "freedom" Iraq and Afghanistan have from US liberation. I think USG has some jealousy issues because they can not take credit for the turn around of the country by Chavez.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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RE: Venzuela leads the wo

Venezuela is not perfect (neither is America) and I can't understand why after the "success and improvements" Chavez made for his people, why all the right and USG can do is criticize. Makes no sense to me.
 

Nascar_James

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Jun 6, 2005
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Like I've said before, seems most on this thread turn a blind eye to Human Right Violations, even when Chevez has been denounced by Amnesty International for his offenses. The evidence is overwhelming.

Read on ...

(link is below)

Amnesty International has documented ill-treatment and torture and excessive use of force by Chavez's police and security forces over many years in Venezuela.

Article 46 of the 1999 Constitution guarantees the right to physical integrity; to be free from torture or ill-treatment; of detainees to be treated with dignity; and of victims of these abuses to rehabilitation. It also stipulates that any state official responsible for causing, instigating or tolerating ill-treatment or mental or physical suffering will be punished according to law.

In November 2002, the United Nations Committee against Torture welcomed such key elements of the 1999 Constitution and a number of other advances in the legal framework to prevent and punish acts of torture, but expressed concern at the continuing incidence of torture cases and the failure to investigate or punish those responsible. The Committee called for the introduction of specific anti-torture legislation to make effective the Constitutional prohibition. Despite efforts by national human rights organizations to advance both the legal and practical efforts to combat torture, no substantive progress has been made since the Committee made its recommendations. The inadequate legal framework, the absence of effective investigations and the increasing lack of credibility of institutions such as the CICPC, Attorney General’s Office and the Defensoría del Pueblo, continue to make impunity for crimes of ill-treatment, torture or excessive use of force the norm.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052004?open&of=ENG-VEN
 

GL Schmitt

Electoral Member
Mar 12, 2005
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Interesting how your mind works, Nascar_James.

When pressed for a citation of how Chavez is torturing and killing his people you present us with a link to an anonymous blogger in 2002 who complains that the Human Rights Watch is guilty of defending Chavez and his supporters but not defending his opposition.

In part, that Human Rights Watch report stated:

. . . At least thirteen persons, and perhaps many more, were reportedly killed and many others injured during the interim period between Chavez's ouster and his return to power on April 14, 2002. Human Rights Watch has obtained information indicating that much of this violence was committed by police officers during political protests in poor neighbourhoods of Caracas.

Human Rights Watch also expressed concern that, during the period that President Chavez was in the custody of the military, the police detained several Chavez supporters and searched numerous homes without complying with basic standards of due process. Human Rights Watch called for a full and impartial investigation into these illegal searches and detentions. . . .


In effect, your citation is (and I quote from the title) a “Critique of the Human Rights Watch report on Venezuela.

Your proof that Chavez is guilty of killing and torture is citing a blogger who is dissatisfied with the Human Rights Watch not holding Chavez responsible for deaths that occurred while he was being “detained” by the military during a hiatus not only of his rule, but also of his freedom.

The fact that some nameless blogger is dissatisfied with Chavez’s alibi of being under the arrest by his political opponents when the twelve (or thirteen) deaths occurred, is proof to you that Chavez is guilty.


Did I write that it is interesting the way your mind works, Nascar_James?

I take that back.

Scary is the correct adjective.
 

Nascar_James

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Jun 6, 2005
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GL Schmitt said:
Interesting how your mind works, Nascar_James.

When pressed for a citation of how Chavez is torturing and killing his people you present us with a link to an anonymous blogger in 2002 who complains that the Human Rights Watch is guilty of defending Chavez and his supporters but not defending his opposition.

In part, that Human Rights Watch report stated:

. . . At least thirteen persons, and perhaps many more, were reportedly killed and many others injured during the interim period between Chavez's ouster and his return to power on April 14, 2002. Human Rights Watch has obtained information indicating that much of this violence was committed by police officers during political protests in poor neighbourhoods of Caracas.

Human Rights Watch also expressed concern that, during the period that President Chavez was in the custody of the military, the police detained several Chavez supporters and searched numerous homes without complying with basic standards of due process. Human Rights Watch called for a full and impartial investigation into these illegal searches and detentions. . . .


In effect, your citation is (and I quote from the title) a “Critique of the Human Rights Watch report on Venezuela.

Your proof that Chavez is guilty of killing and torture is citing a blogger who is dissatisfied with the Human Rights Watch not holding Chavez responsible for deaths that occurred while he was being “detained” by the military during a hiatus not only of his rule, but also of his freedom.

The fact that some nameless blogger is dissatisfied with Chavez’s alibi of being under the arrest by his political opponents when the twelve (or thirteen) deaths occurred, is proof to you that Chavez is guilty.


Did I write that it is interesting the way your mind works, Nascar_James?

I take that back.

Scary is the correct adjective.

Amnesty international is not a nameless blogger. Read my prior post...
 

GL Schmitt

Electoral Member
Mar 12, 2005
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I grow weary of refuting your half-baked recrimination, but in case your accusations have confused anyone, here is story which might give one some concept of how Chevez’s opposition operates.

Chavez film puts staff at risk, says Amnesty

Recriminations after documentary on Venezuelan coup attempt is dropped from a Vancouver festival

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Saturday November 22, 2003
The Guardian

An award-winnning documentary about the coup last year that briefly ousted the Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, has become the subject of a bitter dispute. Last week, it was withdrawn from an Amnesty International (AI) film festival because Amnesty staff in Caracas said they feared for their safety if it were shown.

The film, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, was made by two Irish film makers, Kim Bartley and Donnacha O'Briain. They were preparing a documentary about Mr Chavez, with his cooperation, before the coup and were inside the presidential palace in April 2002 when the events unfolded.

The film has since been shown on television by the BBC, by RTE in Ireland, and elsewhere in Europe. This week it won two prizes at the Grierson documentary awards in Britain.

Mr Chavez was briefly removed from office by a military coup but returned to power after 48 hours. The political situation was then, and remains, highly polarised. The president as portrayed by his opponents is a dangerous, anti-US communist, while Chavez supporters see the opposition as the privileged seeking to preserve their powers from the underprivileged.

The film portrays Mr Chavez in a sympathetic light. It was shown on the public television channel in Venezuela earlier this year. The private television channels are all opposed to Mr Chavez.

Last week, the film was due to be shown at the AI film festival in Vancouver. The organising committee came under pressure from Chavez opponents in Venezuela and eventually decided not to show it.

John Tackaberry of AI said yesterday that the decision had been taken only after Amnesty staff in Venezuela had said that, if it were shown, it would present "some degree of threat to their physical safety".

They told colleagues that, even if Amnesty ran a standard disclaimer, the organisation would be associated with the film, thus endangering its staff.

Mr Tackaberry said the withdrawal was not to do with the film's quality or its politics, as Amnesty did not endorse any of the films at its festivals.

Other festivals due to show the film, and broadcasters who plan to show it, have been urged not to do so, or to allow a right to reply.

A Venezuelan TV producer and engineer, Wolfgang Schalk, is leading the campaign against the film. He said yesterday, in an email, that the film presented a distorted version of events. Mr Schalk said he had spent five months investigating the film.

"It tells a nice story with 'true' images of a 'coup' from the inside. But my 24 years of experience with TV, and a lifetime of living in Venezuela, told me something was wrong." He assembled a forum with a general, a news executive of a private television station and the chief of police to analyse it, he said.

He claimed it became clear that the producers had "changed the order of the events to fit a story that appeals to audiences."

An online petition was organised to complain about the film, which Mr Schalk said did not meet the ethical standards of the BBC.

The film makers are angry that attempts are being made to stop the film from being shown and defend its accuracy. "Our film presents a perspective on the events of April 2002 which is different to the one presented by the privately owned media in Venezuela," they said in a statement.

"Unfortunately, this perfectly legitimate decision by AI to protect the safety of their workers has been distorted by some in order to claim that AI dropped our documentary because of its content."

Link to the Guardiuan Article
 

Nascar_James

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Jun 6, 2005
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GL Schmitt said:
I grow weary of refuting your half-baked recrimination, but in case your accusations have confused anyone, here is story which might give one some concept of how Chevez’s opposition operates.

Chavez film puts staff at risk, says Amnesty

Recriminations after documentary on Venezuelan coup attempt is dropped from a Vancouver festival

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Saturday November 22, 2003
The Guardian

An award-winnning documentary about the coup last year that briefly ousted the Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, has become the subject of a bitter dispute. Last week, it was withdrawn from an Amnesty International (AI) film festival because Amnesty staff in Caracas said they feared for their safety if it were shown.

The film, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, was made by two Irish film makers, Kim Bartley and Donnacha O'Briain. They were preparing a documentary about Mr Chavez, with his cooperation, before the coup and were inside the presidential palace in April 2002 when the events unfolded.

The film has since been shown on television by the BBC, by RTE in Ireland, and elsewhere in Europe. This week it won two prizes at the Grierson documentary awards in Britain.

Mr Chavez was briefly removed from office by a military coup but returned to power after 48 hours. The political situation was then, and remains, highly polarised. The president as portrayed by his opponents is a dangerous, anti-US communist, while Chavez supporters see the opposition as the privileged seeking to preserve their powers from the underprivileged.

The film portrays Mr Chavez in a sympathetic light. It was shown on the public television channel in Venezuela earlier this year. The private television channels are all opposed to Mr Chavez.

Last week, the film was due to be shown at the AI film festival in Vancouver. The organising committee came under pressure from Chavez opponents in Venezuela and eventually decided not to show it.

John Tackaberry of AI said yesterday that the decision had been taken only after Amnesty staff in Venezuela had said that, if it were shown, it would present "some degree of threat to their physical safety".

They told colleagues that, even if Amnesty ran a standard disclaimer, the organisation would be associated with the film, thus endangering its staff.

Mr Tackaberry said the withdrawal was not to do with the film's quality or its politics, as Amnesty did not endorse any of the films at its festivals.

Other festivals due to show the film, and broadcasters who plan to show it, have been urged not to do so, or to allow a right to reply.

A Venezuelan TV producer and engineer, Wolfgang Schalk, is leading the campaign against the film. He said yesterday, in an email, that the film presented a distorted version of events. Mr Schalk said he had spent five months investigating the film.

"It tells a nice story with 'true' images of a 'coup' from the inside. But my 24 years of experience with TV, and a lifetime of living in Venezuela, told me something was wrong." He assembled a forum with a general, a news executive of a private television station and the chief of police to analyse it, he said.

He claimed it became clear that the producers had "changed the order of the events to fit a story that appeals to audiences."

An online petition was organised to complain about the film, which Mr Schalk said did not meet the ethical standards of the BBC.

The film makers are angry that attempts are being made to stop the film from being shown and defend its accuracy. "Our film presents a perspective on the events of April 2002 which is different to the one presented by the privately owned media in Venezuela," they said in a statement.

"Unfortunately, this perfectly legitimate decision by AI to protect the safety of their workers has been distorted by some in order to claim that AI dropped our documentary because of its content."

Link to the Guardiuan Article

Well, when looking at Human Rights issues, if I had to pick between Amnesty International and the UK guardian unlimited, I'll pick Amnesty International.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052004?open&of=ENG-VEN

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1090788,00.html
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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Nascar_James said:
Like I've said before, seems most on this thread turn a blind eye to Human Right Violations, even when Chevez has been denounced by Amnesty International for his offenses. The evidence is overwhelming.

Read on ...

(link is below)

Amnesty International has documented ill-treatment and torture and excessive use of force by Chavez's police and security forces over many years in Venezuela.

Article 46 of the 1999 Constitution guarantees the right to physical integrity; to be free from torture or ill-treatment; of detainees to be treated with dignity; and of victims of these abuses to rehabilitation. It also stipulates that any state official responsible for causing, instigating or tolerating ill-treatment or mental or physical suffering will be punished according to law.

In November 2002, the United Nations Committee against Torture welcomed such key elements of the 1999 Constitution and a number of other advances in the legal framework to prevent and punish acts of torture, but expressed concern at the continuing incidence of torture cases and the failure to investigate or punish those responsible. The Committee called for the introduction of specific anti-torture legislation to make effective the Constitutional prohibition. Despite efforts by national human rights organizations to advance both the legal and practical efforts to combat torture, no substantive progress has been made since the Committee made its recommendations. The inadequate legal framework, the absence of effective investigations and the increasing lack of credibility of institutions such as the CICPC, Attorney General’s Office and the Defensoría del Pueblo, continue to make impunity for crimes of ill-treatment, torture or excessive use of force the norm.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052004?open&of=ENG-VEN



ya might fast forward to the current time and see what Amnesty Int. has to say about the USR (and human rights violations.). Clean up your own back yard first.....and let's see how the situation In Venezuela evolves. Looks promising so far. (suspect someone in the USRegime is feeling bent out of shape about something and has gone onto their usual dirty tactics mode. (and some sheeple follow)
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Venzuela leads the wo

More importantly, you might want to check out the human rights record when the pro-American guys were in charge. If you are concerned about human rights, Nascar Nero, then you should be supporting Chavez. His record is a whole hell of a lot better than the people that you support.

I doubt you give a rat's ass about human rights though...after all you support the Bush regime and the death penalty. You support torture in Guantanamo and holding prisoners illegally. For you to be screaming about human rights is so incredibly hypocritical as to be laughable.
 

Nascar_James

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Jun 6, 2005
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Re: RE: Venzuela leads the wo

Reverend Blair said:
More importantly, you might want to check out the human rights record when the pro-American guys were in charge. If you are concerned about human rights, Nascar Nero, then you should be supporting Chavez. His record is a whole hell of a lot better than the people that you support.

The lowest form of government is one which commits these acts against it's own citizens. The governments priority should be towards it's citizens first and foremost. Any government involved in acts of torture, killings and disappearance against it's political rivals should be brought to trial.


Reverend Blair said:
I doubt you give a rat's ass about human rights though...after all you support the Bush regime and the death penalty. You support torture in Guantanamo and holding prisoners illegally. For you to be screaming about human rights is so incredibly hypocritical as to be laughable.

The death penalty is legal, Rev. What Chavez has done, by killing and torturing his own citizens, that is not legal.

As for the Guantanamo Bay prisoners, they are not being held illegally. On 15 July 2005, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that al-Qaeda members could not be classified as prisoners of war and upheld military tribunals in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base for al-Qaeda members under this classification.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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The lowest form of government is one which commits these acts against it's own citizens. The governments priority should be towards it's citizens first and foremost. Any government involved in acts of torture, killings and disappearance against it's political rivals should be brought to trial.

Still ignoring that the very people that your government is openly backing, even while trying to undermine an ELECTED leader in a democracy, have a record far worse than Chavez.

Chavez has been showing a continual improvement throughout his time in power, and there was an immediate improvement when he came to power. If you read the reports, you'll find that the abuses involve the police and military and occur to both sides, depending on the loyalties of the individual offenders.

I doubt that you subscribe to the HRW and Amnesty press releases though and prefer to sift through their sites for things you think you can take out of context and present as proof of your position. The situation is not that simple.

As for the Guantanamo Bay prisoners, they are not being held illegally. On 15 July 2005, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that al-Qaeda members could not be classified as prisoners of war and upheld military tribunals in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base for al-Qaeda members under this classification.

You seem unable to understand that in cases of international conflict that international law takes precedence. There is no such designation as "unlawful combatant." It's a made-up term invented by political spin-masters.

Because of that the United States has been condemned by the IRC, HRW, Amnesty International, and a bevy of other organisations. Your president is a criminal, Nascar Nero. If you really cared about human rights or the rule of law, you'd be screaming for his head on a pike.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Can anybody find me a shred of tangible evidence that Chavez tortured and killed his own people other than CIA bullshit. I can't find anything that I would post as fact.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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Winnipeg
RE: Venzuela leads the wo

There is nothing, Juan. Amnesty and HRW have concentrated on police and military abuses that have gone both ways depending on the personal loyalties of the offenders. The culture within those organisations is one where such offenses are commonplace and have a history reaching back to well before Chavez.

The biggest thing they have gove after Chavez personally for is speaking out against certain NGOs, but Chavez has produced documentation showing that those NGOs received funding from, and were politically involved with, the US government or groups within Venezuela that had ties to the US government. In other words, they weren't acting strictly as NGOs.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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One thing I did find Rev,

is that the AFL/CIO are the pathfinders for the CIA. The first thing they do is crush or convert the local labour union to subordinate affiliates. I wondered why the trade unions were against Chavez.

http://tinyurl.com/8gnm9
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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I said no CIA bullshit! Can you possibly deny that the CIA overthrew the democratically elected governments of Chile, and Nicaragua? Fairy tales are on another board.