Details, details, eh? The Jews got along just fine as long as they knew their place.
US threatens to cut annual Egyptian bribe
- Thread starter earth_as_one
- Start date
Details, details, eh? The Jews got along just fine as long as they knew their place.
Your author makes a profound observation....no Jews emigrated to Israel before the existance of Israel! :lol:
Before 1948, they fled to Europe and America.
That would indeed be an awkward claim. Has anyone made it? I've heard it raised that many Jews fled Arab lands, but I've never heard any claim of Arabs being purged from Palestine because of it. Straw man, my dear Watson.
I don't challenge the fact that Jews in Muslim Arab countries faced discrimination and harassment. So did Christians, most non-Muslims or Muslims of the wrong sect. The Jews weren't treated differently than other minorities in these countries. But what Jews (and other minorities) faced in Arab/Muslim countries historically and during the 1930's was minor compared to what Jews faced in Europe during the 1930's and 40's. Most Muslims peacefully co-existed with their minorities. The problems between Jews and Muslims began soon after Zionists started their ethnical cleansing of Palestine of non-Jews.
You portray the exodus of Jews from Arab/Muslim countries as occuring at the same time as the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine. That myth has been proven false. Israel's immigration records show these people only came to Israel in large numbers after 1948. In fact, the majority of Jews leaving Muslim countries arrived during the 1950's. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed off their land in 1947-48. Its a provable bold faced lie to claim these events occurred simultaneously rather than the Zionist ethnic cleansing happened first and the Jewish exodus came later.
You also claim that Jews from Arab/Mulsim dominated countries faced ethnic cleansing. That's also incorrect. Jews living in Arab/Muslim countries faced increasing discrimination and harassment as a result of what Zionists were doing to Muslims in Palestine. I would agree that harassment and discrimination isn't right, but not getting a job or having vandals write things on your home is not the same thing as massacres of entire villages, rape, torture and murder. There are few cases of Jews being forcibly removed from their homes while its provable that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes.
Selling your belongings and moving to Israel is called immigration, not ethnic cleansing.
Clearing an area of non-Jews by razing villages, shooting men, raping the women, and then beating and shooting the survivors as they flee for the border is definitely ethnic cleansing.
Nakba deniers aren't that different from holocaust deniers in my book.
Here is first person testimony of a survivor:
[SIZE=-1]Father Rantisi was born in Lyda, now the site of Ben Gurion Airport, in 1937. From 1955 to 1958 he attended the Bible College of Wales, moving in 1963 to continue his studies at Aurora College in the state of Illinois. He then served as a missionary in Sudan. In 1965 he opened the Evangelical Home for Boys in Ramallah, West Bank. In 1976 Father Rantisi was elected as Ramallah's deputy mayor and he is now the director of the orphanage of the Evangelical Home of Boys.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From "Blessed are the Peacemakers ...The History of a Palestinian Christian"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]I cannot forget three horror-filled days in July of 1948. The pain sears my memory, and I cannot rid myself of it no matter how hard I try.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] First, Israeli soldiers forced thousands of Palestinians from their homes near the Mediterranean coast, even though some families had lived in the same houses for centuries. (My family had been in the town of Lydda inPalestine at least 1,600 years). Then, without water, we stumbled into the hills and continued for three deadly days. The Jewish soldiers followed, occasionally shooting over our heads to scare us and keep us moving.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Terror filled my eleven-year-old mind as I wondered what would happen. I remembered overhearing my father and his friends express alarm about recent massacres by Jewish terrorists. Would they kill us, too?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] We did not know what to do, except to follow orders and stumble blindly up the rocky hills. I walked hand in hand with my grandfather, who carried our only remaining possessions-a small tin of sugar and some milk for my aunt's two-year-old son, sick with typhoid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The horror began when Zionist soldiers deceived us into leaving our homes, then would not let us go back, driving us through a small gate just outside Lydda. I remember the scene well: thousands of frightened people being herded like cattle through the narrow opening by armed soldiers firing overhead. In front of me a cart wobbled toward the gate. Alongside, a lady struggled, carrying her baby, pressed by the crowd. Suddenly, in the jostling of the throngs, the child fell. The mother shrieked in agony as the cart's metal-rimmed wheel ran over her baby's neck. That infant's death was the most awful sight I had ever seen.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Outside the gate the soldiers stopped us and ordered everyone to throw all valuables onto a blanket. One young man and his wife of six weeks, friends of our family, stood near me. He refused to give up his money. Almost casually, the soldier pulled up his rifle and shot the man. He fell, bleeding and dying while his bride screamed and cried. I felt nauseated and sick, my whole body numbed by shock waves. That night I cried, too, as I tried to sleep alongside thousands on the ground. Would I ever see my home again? Would the soldiers kill my loved ones, too?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Early the next morning we heard more shots and sprang up. A bullet just missed me and killed a donkey nearby. Everybody started running as a stampede. I was terror-stricken when I lost sight of my family, and I frantically searched all day as the crowd moved along.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] That second night, after the soldiers let us stop, I wandered among the masses of people, desperately searching and calling. Suddenly in the darkness I heard my father's voice. I shouted out to him. What joy was in me! I had thought I would never see him again. As he and my mother held me close, I knew I could face whatever was necessary. The next day brought more dreadful experiences. Still branded on my memory is a small child beside the road, sucking the breast of its dead mother. Along the way I saw many stagger and fall. Others lay dead or dying in the scorching midsummer heat. Scores of pregnant women miscarried, and their babies died along the wayside. The wife of my father's cousin became very thirsty. After a long while she said she could not continue. Soon she slumped down and was dead. Since we could not carry her we wrapped her in cloth, and after praying, just left her beside a tree. I don't know what happened to her body.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] We eventually found a well, but had no way to get water. Some of the men tied a rope around my father's cousin and lowered him down, then pulled him out, and gave us water squeezed from his clothing. The few drops helped, but thirst still tormented me as I marched along in the shadeless, one-hundred plus degree heat.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] We trudged nearly twenty miles up rocky hills, then down into deep valleys, then up again, gradually higher and higher. Finally we found a main road, where some Arabs met us. They took some of us in trucks to Ramallah, ten miles north of Jerusalem. I lived in a refugee tent camp for the next three and one-half years. We later learned that two Jewish families had taken over our family home in Lydda.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Those wretched days and nights in mid-July of 1948 continue as a lifelong nightmare because Zionists took away our home of many centuries. For me and a million other Palestinian Arabs, tragedy had marred our lives forever.
Throughout his life my father remembered and suffered. For thirty-one years before his death in 1979, he kept the large metal key to our house in Lydda.
After more than four decades I still bear the emotional scars of the Zionist invasion. Yet, as an adult, I see what I did not fully understand then: that the Jews are also human beings, themselves driven by fear, victims of history's worst outrages, rabidly, sometimes almost mindlessly searching for security. Lamentably, they have victimized my people.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Four years after our flight from Lydda I dedicated my life to the service of Jesus Christ. Like me and my fellow refugees, Jesus had lived in adverse circumstances, often with only a stone for a pillow. As with his fellow Jews two thousand years ago and the Palestinians today, an outside power controlled his homeland-my homeland. They tortured and killed him in Jerusalem, only ten miles from Ramallah, and my new home. He was the victim of terrible indignities. Nevertheless, Jesus prayed on behalf of those who engineered his death, "Father, forgive them..."[/SIZE]
http://www.alnakba.org/testimony/audeh.htm
Now that's ethnic cleansing.
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Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine
"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
I don't know enough about this, I'll get back to you. I do know that in general Jews lived in subserviance as "despicable creatures" in Arab lands. I also know that the plight of the Palestinians is dreadfully minor compared to what Jews faced in Europe in the 30's and 40's.
My apologies, that was not my intent. My point was that Jews were fleeing Arab persecution before the creation of Israel, typically ending up in Europe and America. Nothing to do with Palestine.
This paragraph could easily spawn a twenty page thread all on it's own! :smile:
Interesting. So you would suggest Israel just make life unbearable for Arabs, offer to buy their belongings if they leave, and everything will be hunky dorey. I think you may have just hit on the solution to the middle east problem!!
Yes, it would be if it happened on a large scale, if at all. If it's just isolated pockets of out of control Hagenah hooodlums, then it's criminal, but not ethnic cleansing.
Edit: Just so we don't lose perspective, there are just as many if not more reported incidents of Jews being massacred in this time period as there are Hagenah atrocities. Lets not let the nice people leave thinking it was all one sided against the poor defenseless peace loving Arabs who only wanted to get along.
What about Nakba exagerators? I already posted testimony of an Arab who admitted the stories of rape where lies. The birth of Pallywood. I haven't seen anyone deny that these events occurred, but they account for a tiny minority of the refugees. The vast majority left on their own accord at the behest of Arab leaders, thinking they would return to their homes once the Jews were pushed into the sea, and get to have their Jew neighbour's property as an added bonus for their trouble. Too bad it didn't work out that way.
Now that we know the solution is just to harrass them and make life unbearable until they leave, we don't have to worry anymore.
It's a cryin shame but when it happens in isolated incidents it's not ethnic cleansing. But again, fortunately, it doesn't matter anymore. We have the solution to the problem.
Assuming that statement had any relevance (I can post a thousand Islamists who describe the need to kill every man and woman in Israel, to drown even the smallest of babes in the ocean, that doesn't mean its widespread or enforced) That doesn't dispute the statement I made.
You're talking nonsense. The Zionists readily admit that the Arabs had to go. That the Arabs had to be driven out of Palestine. It is well documented that the Arabs were driven from their homes and villages, and the homes and villages razed to the ground so they couldn't return. Who do you think filled the refugee camps? The Arabs lived in Palestine for a longer period than the Jews ever did and had as much right to live there.
1.) The Zionists don't amount to jack ship. There are Islamist groups that openly admit Israel needs to have every last man woman and child butchered in the name of Allah, does that mean every Palestinian needs to be tried for warcrimes? No, they are nuts. What a few crackpots say means nothing.
2.) They didn't own those homes. They were tenants and labourers. They lived there knowing they didn't own the homes. This is no different than many farmhands in America at the time, or workers living in company houses (Which you could only rent when you worked for the factory).
I don't doubt some owned the homes, war isn't fun, I don't doubt many more attempted to become squatters and engaged in violence. many more booked out planning to return and live in the house of Jewish people after the Arab armies slaughtered them, as many have admitted openly in previous years (then recanted mysteriously)
And to top this all off, few alive in Israel are responsible for any of this, and few palestinians left alive suffered from this. Tough nuggies, even if your horror stories were true, I don't see you moving back to the old country and giving your land to the local native council.
Complete garbage! Save this kind of stuff for when you go to temple next Saturday.. BTW, there are thousands of Jewish families living in Palestinian houses.
Muslims have been a majority in this area since the end of the 12th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Demographics_in_the_late_Ottoman_and_British_Mandate_periods
Jews were clearly a minority in the British Mandate of Palestine in 1945:
Jews owned a minority of Palestine in 1945.
Clearly non-Jews were a majority and owned a majority of the land. Yet when the UN partitioned this area a minority of the people were given a majority of the land over the objections of the majority of the people. But by that time the ethnic cleansing was well underway.
Interview of Israeli historian Benny Morris:
From a review of a book written by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe:
There can be no doubt that non-Jewish Palestinians were cleansed of the land by force. Even Jewish Israeli historians agree on this.
The ethnic cleansing hasn't stopped. Its just not blatant as in 1947-48. Each day a few more Palestinian homes are evacuated by force and demolished, and a few more homes are built in Jewish only colonies. Over time, Palestine has become predominantly Jewish and the former occupants have been squeezed into ever smaller enclaves which resemble concentration camps.
From Amnesty International
Israel has gotten away with ethnic cleansing for 60 years now. Its the root cause of violence throughout the middle east. The number of nationless refugees as a result of Israel's past and present ethnic cleansing activities now numbers 4.4 million people and growing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Demographics_in_the_late_Ottoman_and_British_Mandate_periods
Jews were clearly a minority in the British Mandate of Palestine in 1945:
Jews owned a minority of Palestine in 1945.
Clearly non-Jews were a majority and owned a majority of the land. Yet when the UN partitioned this area a minority of the people were given a majority of the land over the objections of the majority of the people. But by that time the ethnic cleansing was well underway.
Interview of Israeli historian Benny Morris:
From a review of a book written by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe:
There can be no doubt that non-Jewish Palestinians were cleansed of the land by force. Even Jewish Israeli historians agree on this.
The ethnic cleansing hasn't stopped. Its just not blatant as in 1947-48. Each day a few more Palestinian homes are evacuated by force and demolished, and a few more homes are built in Jewish only colonies. Over time, Palestine has become predominantly Jewish and the former occupants have been squeezed into ever smaller enclaves which resemble concentration camps.
From Amnesty International
Israel has gotten away with ethnic cleansing for 60 years now. Its the root cause of violence throughout the middle east. The number of nationless refugees as a result of Israel's past and present ethnic cleansing activities now numbers 4.4 million people and growing.
WHO IS A PALESTINE REFUGEE?
"Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict. UNRWA's services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948. The number of registered Palestine refugees has subsequently grown from 914,000 in 1950 to more than 4.4 million in 2005, and continues to rise due to natural population growth.
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html
Wrong again. The majority of Palestinians never owned the homes, they did live in them though. Perhaps if they hadn't tolerated living in a basically feudal society they would have a right to bemoan.
And no im not Jewish, sometimes people can see through whiney bollshoi and actually look at the base evidence, and not instead see what would make a better story. Sometimes there is no hero and no villain, and you have to stop rewriting history to make it so. Very rarely is there a good guy and a bad guy.
Was it cruel and heartless to evict labourers from homes, even if not their own homes and they had no right to them? Sure it was, while they may have chosen to put and their families in that situation they did as such because it was their best hope for a better life.
If I hire people to come work at logging camp and live their with their families on my land, it would be awful cold of me to just one day up and evict them all after often generations of them working for me just because someone offered to buy it from me or I decided I wanted to turn it into a golf course etc, but that is still my right. While not a good or just act, they are still not victims, they knew this could happen and chose the life anyways.
The true crimes are those who did own their homes (though few did, the area was largely barren in Israel compared to the rest of the region) who did lose them. But there is also know way to know who was unlawfully evicted (and by whom) and who took up arms out of uniform and thus legally lost their homes.
And like it or not, the descendants of both parties share neither guilt nor victimization for anything that happened.
Sorry Juan, history doesn't fold itself into neat little "Good guys/ Bad guys" headings, and if it seems to, you almost certainly know you are seeing a pile of bollshoi.
Time to put your other foot in your mouth:
Whose Jerusalem?
by Ibrahim Matar Today, Jews live in and occupy all that is known as West Jerusalem. However, most of the land area, homes and property in West Jerusalem still belong to the Palestinian people.
In April, May, and July of 1948, the Jewish terrorists and Haganah forces evicted some 60,000 Palestinians from the area that constitutes today the Municipal boundaries of West Jerusalem. This area includes four Palestinian villages which were in 1948 rural suburbs of Jerusalem, mainly, Lifta, Deir Yassin, Ein Karem, and Malha and Palestinian residential quarters, mainly, Katamon, Upper and Lower Baqa’a, Talbieh, Mamillah, Shama’a, Musrara, and part of Abu-Tor. This civilian population was forced to leave its homes and property by a deliberate wave of terror attacks designed to ethnically cleanse non-Jews from West Jerusalem. The most infamous of these acts committed on April 9, 1948, by Jewish terrorist organizations was the massacre of civilians in Deir Yassin, then a small village at the outskirts of Jerusalem, and the blowing up of the Semiramis Hotel in the Palestinian neighborhood of Katamon in West Jerusalem.
The eviction of the civilian population from West Jerusalem was supposed to have been temporary. However, the Jewish State did not comply with United Nations resolution 194 of December 1948, which stipulated the return or compensation of the Palestinians and instead declared the Palestinians as permanent absentees. Palestinian property, which was described as "absentee property", was seized under the Absentee Property Regulations of 1948. On March 14th, 1950 the Jewish State passed the Absentee Property Law signed by Prime Minister Ben-Gurion. This law declared as absentees all Palestinian citizens who were not present in Israel on the 1st of September 1948 and vested all their movable and immovable property to the custodian of absentee property. The custodian was given, by this law, full authority to lease or sell all Palestinian property seized not only in West Jerusalem, but in all of Palestine.
In brief, the Palestinians forced in 1948 from their homes in West Jerusalem were not allowed to return and instead were declared permanent absentees and their property sold by the so-called "custodian" for the benefit of Jews only. This process can only be described as "legalized theft". Under these laws, even the Palestinians who were evicted from West Jerusalem in 1948 and today live in "annexed East Jerusalem" and hold Israeli identity cards cannot claim their property in West Jerusalem. They are called "present absentees."
The inventory of Palestinian property seized and taken over by Jews in 1948 – be it real estate, agricultural land, or homes in the villages or urban neighborhoods – that today lie within the West Jerusalem Municipal boundaries is described below.
A brief description is first given of the Palestinian villages in the district of Jerusalem depopulated in 1948 and today inhabited by Jews.
1.Lifta and Sheikh Bader, and all their surrounding agricultural lands to the North of Jerusalem. Land ownership in 1948 in this village was distributed as follows:
Palestinian
7,780 dunums
Jewish 756 dunums
Public 207 dunums
Total 8,743 dunums
Note: 1 dunum equals 1,000 square meters
Thus the Palestinians owned 89% of the land, the Jews 9% and the rest was public.
The old homes of Lifta stand today abandoned, but the more modern homes are today inhabited by Jews. The high school of Lifta is today used as a Jewish religious site. A number of modern hotels such as the Sonesta and the Crown Plaza are built on the property of Lifta. However, more significant is the fact that most of the Israeli government Ministries are built on the land of Lifta. This includes the Israeli Knesset building, the Prime Minister’s Offices, and the Ministries of Foreign Affairs and Interior. In fact, the Knesset is built on the private property of the Palestinian Khalaf family from Lifta who today live as "present absentees" in the Sheikh Jarrah Quarter of East Jerusalem. The family still holds the title to the property on which the Knesset is built.
2. Deir Yassin and surrounding agricultural lands. The land ownership in 1948 in this village was distributed as follows:
Palestinian
2,701 dunums
Jewish 152 dunums
Public 3 dunums
Total 2,856 dunums
Thus, Palestinians owned 95% of the land, the Jews the remaining 5%.
This small village located in the northwest of Jerusalem had a population of 900 in 1948. On April 9, 1948, it was attacked by the Jewish terrorist organization the Irgun Zva’i Leumi led by Menachim Begin. By twelve noon that fateful day, the village fell to the attackers who subsequently committed the infamous massacre of the children, elderly and wounded who were unable to leave the village. Today, the houses in the center of the village are used as a sanitarium for the mentally ill Jews operated by the Israeli Ministry of Health. The village cemetery was bulldozed and covered by a road leading to a new Jewish settlement for Orthodox Jews built on the property of Deir Yassin. The stone quarries that Deir Yassin was famous for have now become a Jewish industrial zone. The village’s two room elementary school building is now being used by a Jewish Rabbi, Chabed Labovitch.
3. Ein Karem and surrounding agricultural terraces located to the west of Jerusalem were also incorporated in the Municipal boundaries of West Jerusalem, as well as Lifta and Deir Yassin as described above. Land ownership in 1948 in this village was as follows:
Palestinian
13,449 dunums
Jewish 1,362 dunums
Public 218 dunums
Total 15,029 dunums
Thus, Palestinians owned 90%, the Jews 9% and the rest was public.
In 1948, this village had a population of 4,500 predominantly Christian Catholic Palestinians, as Ein Karem is the birthplace of John the Baptist. In July of 1948, all the inhabitants of this village were forced to leave by the Jewish armed forces. Today, all the village homes are inhabited by Jews. The Churches that still exist in the village have become museums without congregations. The Jewish Hadassah Hospital is built on the lands of the village. However, it is one of the major ironies of history that the Yad Vashem, a memorial to the Jewish victims of the Nazis, is built on the terraced land of the dispossessed, exiled, and involuntarily “absentee” Palestinians of Ein Karem.
The Jewish memorial built on the lands of Ein Karem, is a witness to the fact that the Palestinians are the last victims of Hitler, as they had to pay the price with their villages, land and country, Palestine, for the establishment of the Jewish State.
4. El-Malha. After Ein Karem, this was the second largest of the four villages. It is located to the southwest of Jerusalem on the borders with Bethlehem. It had in 1948 a population of 3,000 Palestinians.
Land ownership in 1948 was distributed as follows:
Palestinian
2,701 dunums
Jewish 153 dunums
Public 3 dunums
Total 2,857 dunums
Thus, the Palestinians owned 95%, the Jews some 5%.
The Palestinians of this village were forced out of their homes in April and July 1948. Today, all the houses of the village are inhabited by Jews. Jewish houses have been built over the village mosque, which was used as a club. A number of Jewish settlements including the Stadium of Jerusalem and Jerusalem Mall are built on the lands of Al-Malha.
To summarize, over 93% of the land of these four villages depopulated in 1948, presently annexed to the West Jerusalem Municipality and occupied by Jews, belong to the Palestinians. Almost 30,000 dunums that belonged to these villages have been built upon by the Jews, today they comprise most of the Jewish residential areas of West Jerusalem.
To conclude, in the final status negotiations regarding Jerusalem, the question of the Jewish occupation of West Jerusalem should be negotiated. Ultimately, the Palestinian Jerusalemites, in accordance with the UN resolutions, should be repatriated to their homes, villages and property in West Jerusalem by changing their status from "absentee" to present, or be compensated for their property for those who do not wish to have their property back.
News In English ,,, March 2007
- March 5, 2007 Don't say we didn't know: Settlers continue to invade Palestinian-owned shops in Hebron.
Amos Gvirtz
Gush Shalom
Settlers continue to invade Palestinian-owned shops in Hebron. Most of the media reports dealt with the invasions of shops in the wholesale market; however, just a few metres away, in the vegetable market invasions have been goign on for a long time. After the massacre perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein in the Patriarchs' Cave, the army closed the market, and prevented any access of Palestinians there. The settlers took advantage of this, broke into the shops from behind and started building flats inside them, even opened a branch of the religious youth movement Bney-Akiva.
Following the shop owners' complaints, a few policemen and civil administration personnel arrived with search warrants. To the protest of the settlers they found out that the settlers live there illegally.
Previous news related to the issue:
Gush Shalom
Settlers continue to invade Palestinian-owned shops in Hebron. Most of the media reports dealt with the invasions of shops in the wholesale market; however, just a few metres away, in the vegetable market invasions have been goign on for a long time. After the massacre perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein in the Patriarchs' Cave, the army closed the market, and prevented any access of Palestinians there. The settlers took advantage of this, broke into the shops from behind and started building flats inside them, even opened a branch of the religious youth movement Bney-Akiva.
Following the shop owners' complaints, a few policemen and civil administration personnel arrived with search warrants. To the protest of the settlers they found out that the settlers live there illegally.
Previous news related to the issue:
- On the 12th of February, 2007, a settler woman, accompanied by eight children, arrived to the land of the Abu Haykal family in Tel Rumeida.The settler broke through the fence in order to enter. A soldier arrived but did nothing to evacuate them. The police also arrived, but only after 40 minutes. After a long argument the settlers agreed to leave. Then they turned into Wad ElHariya St., which is in the Palestinian controlled area (H1), and where other young settlers were stoning a Palestinian-owned shop. There were soldiers and policemen in the area. The settlers claimed that two Palestinian children stoned them. The Palestinian children were arrested immediately. One of the children with the settler (from the previous event) started to attack a human rights activist that was filming the whole event. A policeman that stood near him did not react. A Palestinian child went nearby, trying to bypass the commotion. One of the settlers' children pointed at him accusing him of throwing stones. The child was arrested immediately. The human rights activist testifies that the child did not throw stones at all. Not a single settler nor their children were arrested for their actions. The soldiers even forced the shopkeepers to close their shops. After five hours the Palestinian children were released from the arrest.
- Mahmud 'Ali was born in Dir Dibwan, east of Ramallah, seventy years ago. He married in 1957. In the 1960s, before the Occupation, he went to the USA, where he received citizenship. After some time, he brought his wife and children to the USA. In the 1970s, his wife and children returned to their village, Dir Dibwan. Mahmud then used to visit his family once a year for a month or two. Since his retirement he tried to prolong these visits. The Israeli authorities forced him to go to Jordan every three months and return with a new visa. His wife is seventy years old, is ill and needs his help. About a year ago, the Israelis told him he'd have to wait for a year until he’s permitted to return. On January 20, 2007, when he tried to enter the West Bank from Jordan, Israel refused to grant him a visa and his entry was refused. The village Dir Dibwan is in Area B, which is under Palestinian civil control, but Israel controls entry and exit from it.
- The municipality of Jerusalem hasn't stopped demolishing homes in the Palestinian villages annexed to it after the war of 1967. Since the beginning of this year, the municipality has demolished 9 Palestinian homes. One of the cases that was carried out in bad faith is the case of Hamed El Amas in Sur Baher. The local planning committee had authorised this building, and had recommended to the regional committee that it be granted a licence. The municipality knew that the house had received authorisation by the local committee, but nonetheless sent its men and heavy machinery to demolish the house over a period of two days. It was a four storey building that had been intended to house eight families.
- The Al-Nasasra tribe lived on their land before the establishment of the State of Israel. In 1980 the state built the town Kseife near them. They are listed as residents of Kseife, receive municipal services from Kseife and participate in the municipal elections. The town wishes to integrate them and their land as a neighbourhood of Kseife. Now the state wants their land. They have been offered NIS1000 per dunam (=1000 sq.m.) and half a dunam for habitation in the town. They refuse, because they want to live on their land as farmers. Now the Ministry of Interior has pasted demolition warrants on all the 100 houses of the Al-Nasasra.
- The Jahalin tribe were expelled in the early 1950s from Israel to the West Bank - then under Jordanian rule - some settled east of Jerusalem. Now the state wants to expel them. Israel intends to build the separation fence so that it surrounds the settlement Ma'ale Adumim and other settlements. In the enclave there will be 30 locations where the Jahalin live, only one of them on the fence route. The rest, some 3000 people will be inside the enclave. They don't disturb the fence trajectory, none the less, the state intends to evacuate the Jahalin from their homes.
- In the early 1980s the inhabitants of Tuba were evicted. Tuba used to be where the settlement Maon Farm is today. The people of Tuba settled nearby, about 1,5 Km away. They were expelled again in the big expulsion of 1999, and returned under a supreme court warrant. The inhabitants of Tuba suffer from harrasments of settlers who want their lands. Following settlers attacks they stopped cultivating their lands in Wadi Zeitun near the cattle yard in the settlement Carmel. Passage through Wadi Zeitun is difficult as well (eg going to the town Yatta) as the settlers threaten them with weapons.
- On Tuesday, 09/01/07, a police force, accompanied by representatives of the ministry of interior and Israel land administration, arrived to the village Tawil Abu Jarwal, of the Talalqa (near Goral junction in the Negev) and demolished all the houses of the village, 21 houses. About 100 people are left homeless.It's the fifth time the state demolishes in the village. The country has no housing solution for the tribe but it does not prevent it from demolishing their houses.
- The town Beit Umar is situated between Beit Lehem and Hebron. There are 14,500 residents. It used to have 30,250 dunums. (dunum=1000 m^2). Some of it's lands were stolen for nearby settlements: Kfar Etzion: about 625 dunum, Migdal Oz: almost 2000 dunum, Karmei Tzur: about 500 dunum. More theft is pending: the separation wall will take 6000 dunums from its lands. The bypass road El-'Arub-Beit Umar will take further 1200 dunum.
Juan
Zzrchov isn't about to give any material a fair hearing. His mind is made-up...settled...."there is clearly a right and a wrong involved here"....with Jews being absolutely right and Palestinians being absolutely wrong....
Why would our friend entertain the truth?
Why would our friend Z consider the possibility that a strongly held conviction he has ....is wrong?
Folk like to reduce issues to simple levels like "right" and "wrong", many believe that listening to any evidence, any opinion at odds with their personal perspective on ...anything....is tantamount to admitting defeat....
Tail chasing...
It's what's kept Israelis and Palestinians dying in droves...since that early mistake back in 47...
Zzrchov isn't about to give any material a fair hearing. His mind is made-up...settled...."there is clearly a right and a wrong involved here"....with Jews being absolutely right and Palestinians being absolutely wrong....
Why would our friend entertain the truth?
Why would our friend Z consider the possibility that a strongly held conviction he has ....is wrong?
Folk like to reduce issues to simple levels like "right" and "wrong", many believe that listening to any evidence, any opinion at odds with their personal perspective on ...anything....is tantamount to admitting defeat....
Tail chasing...
It's what's kept Israelis and Palestinians dying in droves...since that early mistake back in 47...
You're no doubt right Mikey. That "early mistake back in 47", was definitely a mistake. The hatred that decision has spawned will be with with us for the next century or two at least....or till the last Palestinian is dead....whichever comes first.
Must be nice to have it all figured our, eh, Juan? Since you are the moral authority on the subject mabey you could let us know what the solution is.
I wonder what the situation would be if the Jew stayed in the proposed Jewish areas and the Arabs stayed in the proposed Arab areas and there had been no Israeli war of independence, just independence for both peoples? Just imagine for a moment. Its kinda nice...... Now, reality.
I wonder what the situation would be if the Jew stayed in the proposed Jewish areas and the Arabs stayed in the proposed Arab areas and there had been no Israeli war of independence, just independence for both peoples? Just imagine for a moment. Its kinda nice...... Now, reality.
You forget, that the Palestinians were already independent. They had lived and farmed on their land for over 1200 years. If you can find anything to justify giving the Jews land that was already owned by the Palestinians, I'd like to see it.
I think the irony there is so sharp you'll probably bleed to death.
You and Juan preach "the Truth" which is that Jewish people are subhuman monsters, who lay their jew eggs, hatch them into winged jews who fly around and drink the blood of palestinians, a people who lived in a utopia knowing no pain and anguish who knew not of how to do anything wrong, it was simply impossible.
I point out how things aren't clear cut with "good guys or bad guys", point to evidence how you can in no way pin all the evils in the region on people who were born after it began..
and *I* won't listen to the evidence?
What hypocrites! You will not entertain any view that does not feature clear cut good guys and clear cut bad guys.
Sorry the world doesn't work that way. Even the Nazi's had their (albiet remarkabley few) good moments. And even Ghandi had his evils. To pretend that the Jewish people are worse than Nazi's and that every Palestinian more peaceful than Ghandi is Absurd. And that is EXACTLY what you keep trying to pass off as truth.
You are so convinced of your own righteous nature, how incredibley black and white the situation is that you cannot even consider for a moment that you may be wrong, you cannot see anything other than black and white.
Oh, and Juan:
"You forget, that the Palestinians were already independent. They had lived and farmed on their land for over 1200 years. If you can find anything to justify giving the Jews land that was already owned by the Palestinians, I'd like to see it."
1.) Palestinians were NEVER independant, that is a bold faced lie. They were Roman (including Byzantine) then Ottoman, then split between a handful of other nations. They were NEVER independant.
When they farmed the Land they farmed it for foreign Ottomans, it was ottoman land they worked as field hands. they NEVER owned it.
Oddly enough, as a counter-balance to keep the Arabs from revolting (which in WWI they did) the Ottomans did give alot of Jews land to actually own, this was to keep the Arabs and them fighting ,and thus keep Arab squatters from stealing Ottoman land, which the Ottomans then gave to the allies in WWI as part of a peace agreement, this land (which was never palestinian) was then to be given to Israel, Britain changed its mind (After already receiving payment).
Note, this land was still not Palestinian and they knew it, they were tenants and thats it, it wasn't a shock to them when the land was sold out from under them. They still didn't like it, and who would after all?
If the Palestinians wanted the land, they should have fought for independance from those who owned the land and sold it out from under them, or they should have bought the land themselves, they didn't. They figured someone would always be needed to work the land, so why buy it themselves. Poor planning.