US threatens to cut annual Egyptian bribe

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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If it wants peace: Step 1, admit Israel has a right to exist. If you don't, you instead admit you wish to destroy it (and thus can never have peace)

Maybe Israel should admit that Palestinians have a right to exist. Israel, aided and abetted by the U.S., has embarked on a systematic terrorizing of Palestinians from day one. Palestinians have been under a worse apartheid than South Africa since 1948.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Even a 5 year old knows its wrong to take what belongs to others.

What a bunch of drivel. Interesting that you would say there WERE more jews in Egypt. Talk about ethnic cleansing. Lets talk about the Jews kicked out of their homes across all Arab lands. Did you know that 50% of Israel's Jewish population are Arabian Jews? They are refugees too, who found sanctuary in Israel. Do you think Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran etc etc bought the houses of the Jews who fled to Israel? Don't talk to me about fair. There were no Jews in Jordan because they were NOT ALLOWED east of the Jordan river after 1923.

And #Juan, it is not a matter of controversy that multiple Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948, five minutes after she and the UN decalared her indepdendence. This constant attempt at revision of history grows tiresome.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Deir Yassin is a good example. They drove the Arabs out of their villages and then burned the villages to the ground so they couldn't come back.

No, it's not a good example, it's an anomoly. There was chaos in Palestine between 1945 and 1948. Bad things happened to a lot of people on both sides. It was guerrila/terrorist warfare. Deir Yassin no more typifies Israel than Somalia typifies Canada.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Maybe Israel should admit that Palestinians have a right to exist. Israel, aided and abetted by the U.S., has embarked on a systematic terrorizing of Palestinians from day one. Palestinians have been under a worse apartheid than South Africa since 1948.

Your kidding, right? Israel has been willing to accept a Palestinain state since at least 1993. It was Arafat who kept rejecting it. In fact, a Palestinain state could have been formed in 1948 for all Israel cared. The west bank was Jordanian and Gaza was Egyptian. Why didn't they form a Palestinain state?

"Palestinians" (Arabs) in Israel have a better life than most Arabs in all of Arabia. Funny how Israel is ethnically cleansing Arabs but somehow the ones who didn't get out of the way of the "Push the Jews into the sea" machine in 1948 are alive and well and prospering in Israel.

Hmm.
 
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Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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OK now you've gone and piqued my curiosity and got me reading web sites when I should be sleeping. ;-)

Turns out the accounting of the events at Deir Yashin are not without controversy.

Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."14

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html


Anyway, now I'm going to bed. Night all, always a pleasure driving towards the truth with ya!
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
SECESSION.NET HOME
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-2]Creating a worldwide Secession Network[/SIZE][SIZE=-2]based on principles of: Right to Secede - Community-Based Secession - Libertarian/Decentralist Political Processes - Nonviolent Secession and Institutions[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+2]VOICES FOR ISRAEL-PALESTINE[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+2]CONFEDERATION(S)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] From a decentralist position, the best to way to look at the Israel-Palestine conflict is from the perspective of the a) rights of individuals to their freedom and their justly acquired property and b) the right to self-determination of the communities they have created.
Zionism from its inception recognized that because native Arabs already inhabited most of the arable land, Israel could only be created by driving Arabs off their land. As the graphic below shows, through its 57 years Israel has managed to do just that. (Even more land has been confiscated since 2000.)
The Arabs who have chosen to call themselves Palestinians have been trying to "secede" from the imposed state of Israel and regain their confiscated property since 1948. As maps below show in more detail, Arabs owned most of the land in 1945. At that time Jews owned only 7 percent, much of it acquired from Ottoman Turks with dubious claims to it.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Yet according to decentralist theories of self-determination, Israelis also have a right to live in Palestine on their justly acquired (or if necessary, justly compensated) lands, which today might be 10 percent, including land that truly was previously unowned. Of course, given that so much of that land was stolen and Arabs ethnically cleansed from the area, many Palestinians and their supporters would disagree. However, those Palestinians willing to make some compromises do frequently point out that most Israelis live in cities near the sea anyway and do not occupy most of the Palestinian villages they emptied and destroyed in 1948. West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem land confiscated since Israel's 1967 war of aggression, of course, would have to be returned.
Trying to resolve these issues in terms of collective rights of ethnic and religious groups is driving us now to the verge of a regional war as Israel ramps up war against Iran before it obtains the technical ability to produce nuclear weapons. Such a war could rapidly lead to regional or even world nuclear war. See StopTheWarNow.Net[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
Workable solutions probably would have to be more radical decentralist, more based on case-by-case analysis, like those advanced at Secession.Net. Such radical decentralist prescriptions below highlighted in underlined italics. Decentralist solutions certainly would not look like the defacto "bantustans" that the Israeli government has been trying to force upon Palestinians since the Oslo accords, and including George Bush's "road map."[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] The offical Palestine Liberation Organization position is that Palestinians are willing to accept Israel if it retreats to its June 4, 1967 borders--a demand long made even by the United Nations (Resolution 242)-- and recognizes the right of return. Israel refuses to give up the territory and recognize the right of return -- which would soon turn Israel into a majority Arab state -- and continues to threaten nuclear retaliation in "self-defense" of these confiscated lands. (See Israeli nuclear threats page.)
Perhaps only a transcendent political solution like one or more confederations, arrived at through nonviolent negotiation, can resolve this conflict. (See a nonviolent plan for resolution from Nonviolence International's Mubarak Awad Eight Steps to Israeli Palestinian Peace.)[/SIZE][/FONT]


http://www.secession.net/israel-palestine-confederation.html

The drawings say it all. Palestinian land has been systematically stolen since Israel was created. What is tragic, is that the rest of the world has allowed it to happen.
 
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MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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The amount of time and energy people are eager to commit to this topic astounds me.

Why?

Because Israel is a surrogate state of the United States? Because the world has been conditioned to walk on egg-shells around any issue regarded as or certainly swiftly painted as ..."Anti-Semitic"?

The capacity for the worlds attention to be commanded by the Israeli Palestinian issue is what?

There has never been the same quantity of "news" of "dialogue" "argument", or simply attention focused on any other single nation. While there may have been a great deal of talk and rhetoric generated by news "events" like the Cuban missile crisis, Sudan and its abandonment of its humanity, Japan and its perverse stubbornness that required the United States to drop nuclear bombs on them...some issues have flared up, usually...events and situations associated with major war and economic dynamics, but the world has been sittting sidelined by the intransigence of both the Israeli and the Palestinian people for over half a hundred years!

Why?

A fascist madman comitted horrendous atrocities against the Jews....and the world has never been content or satisfied that the discussion of how terrible that situation should be closed and we can all move on....?

Why?

Hostilities in Viet Nam, eclipsed the nonsense in the Middle East...barely. Our attention the attention of the world is purposefully focused and directed to the longest standing example of how despite the fact that both sides in this conflict claim.....availability to peaceful settlement.....claim the world "owes" one of then... claims the other side is to blame for everything.....claims claims and more claims....and we all rant and build fantastic castles in the air providing facts and figures arguments and counter arguments, perspectives and propaganda discounting what one side says then a lull in the exchange then another round of exactly the same thing....ad infinitum.....

Why?

If it's true that hostilities in the Middle East will be the match that sets the final powder keg to explode, it won't be because no one was paying attention....

Canada United States, nations from all over the planet have interferred in and committed billions and blood to Afghanistan Iraq and various other wonderful monuments to the human principles of law...justice and freedom..... and yet there's never been a time when the world ...that's been ham-strung by the situation in the Middle East...has said...Enough is Enough!


Why?

What special significance is there to this particular example of time wasted and lives lost on useless rhetoric and disingenuous philosophies.... what makes the decision in the first place to carve up Palestine to appease the Jews a decision that can't be acknowledged as probably the worst mistake to ever have been made by the great freedom loving powers that wield the greatest terror of all...the power to devastate all life on this planet in a few short hours... the focal point of the worlds attention?

How long would it take to have the United States China and Russia send in troops and armaments and kill every last breathing man woman and child that lives in this little dust bowl?

When we don't find a cure for our sick animals and they're injured beyond repair...we execute them to put them out of our misery....

Why isn't there a preparedness to respond with the same "shock and awe" over Tel Aviv or Jerusalem as there was over Baghdad? Why isn't there sufficient grounds to commit troops en masse into this area where we know that the Israelis have vast amounts of weaponry and the Palestinian factions are recieving similar materiel from other folk...there is no doubt about weapons of mass destruction....there is no doubt that either and perhaps both sides in this conflict are prepared and have demonstrated their preparedness to expand their hostilities into any other region and beyond their borders...against anyone from allies to foes....it simply doesn't matter to these people....

Why?

If you don't realize and understand that you're being manipulated and dancing like puppets on the end of a string.....
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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The amount of time and energy people are eager to commit to this topic astounds me.

It is truly unfortunate that people with any power to do anything about this festering invasion, first, didn't notice, and then stood by and let it happen. I was one of those who stood around. I had no power, but I thought that eventually, everything would be made right. We should all have been screaming to our politicians and to the UN, and anyone else who might listen. But what the hell, they were only a bunch of Arabs........who had occupied that land for 1200 years...
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Machjo

Interesting ...

Do you think that the people of the region have the capacity to live together in peace?

Do you think thre are sufficient numbers of these like-minded individuals to make a difference?

Do you think that Israelis Palestinians, Jordanians, Lybians, the whole enchilada haven't been manipulated by the "Carry a big stick..." crowd...or the "From each according to his ability.." crowd...or the other numb-brained nations in the European Union.... to serve some ulterior purpose that sees these people slaughtering each other....with compromise and peaceful settlement blocked and crippled by third-party intervenors.....
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Hmm... First off, they have to be strong individuals. I'm sure many of them are probably viewed as traitors or at least poor, silly utopian dreamers. Strangely enough, though, it's just these poor, silly, utopian dreamers whom I try to emulate. Gandhi and Tolstoy were among them, along with Einstein.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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If I believe not that peace can come, it would be irrational for me to waste my time trying to bring it about. So first I must believe it's possible. Then I must move forward regardless of ridicule, since my ideas will of course be ridiculed at every stage as being without precedent, new, never tried before, childish, too innocent, etc.

That's how new ideas have always been approached throughout history.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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It starts with one, man, and the rest are free to follow. If they don't, then at least he will have earned the epithet 'I tried' on his tombstone. A very honourable one indeed.

But as for those who didn't join their ranks, who simply submitted to 'reality', and 'it's a dangerous world out there', 'verily his life is worse than his death'.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Machjo

How can we even entertain the possibility that the way of one mans thinking or the example that one man sets....is capable of addressing the propensity for self-delusion, self-aggrandizement...and self-destruction that seems so "natural" across the human horizon when you review history?

Aren't we really faced with an internal struggle? Isn't it up to each human being to recognize that we're all in this together....that China's puffing of carbon dioxide and poision into the atmosphere is being paid for by the consumer societies who flock to buy trash they don't need and are only told they "want"?

Doesn't the change in human thought have to...like knowledge ...or democracy....have to arise from within....?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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What a bunch of drivel. Interesting that you would say there WERE more jews in Egypt. Talk about ethnic cleansing. Lets talk about the Jews kicked out of their homes across all Arab lands. Did you know that 50% of Israel's Jewish population are Arabian Jews? They are refugees too, who found sanctuary in Israel. Do you think Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran etc etc bought the houses of the Jews who fled to Israel? Don't talk to me about fair. There were no Jews in Jordan because they were NOT ALLOWED east of the Jordan river after 1923...

Immigration is not the same as ethnic cleansing.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]'Arab Ethnic Cleansing'?[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]F[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]irst let us recall the chronology. The ethnic cleansing of 600.000 to 720.000 Palestinians from Israel preceded the Jewish exodus from Arab countries. The exodus of some 125.000 Iraqi Jews to Israel started in 1949; that of about 165.000 North-African Jews took place as late as 1955-1957. It is therefore somewhat awkward to claim that Israel had deported its Arabs because of the exodus of Arab Jews that occurred years later. There is no doubt, however, that the establishment of the State of Israel played a major role in the deplorable deterioration of living conditions for Jews in many Arab countries.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Whereas Jews had been living in the Arab and Muslim world for more than a millennium, for better and for worse but under generally more favourable terms than under Christianity (and with nothing even slightly comparable to the atrocities of the Crusaders or the Holocaust), Israel’s ethnic cleansing coincided with the Jewish State’s birth. And not by chance: the 600.000 Jews living in Palestine in 1948 could not have achieved a solid majority in the areas they occupied without getting rid of a similar number of Arabs. Unlike the Arab countries, that can show a long tradition of coexistence with Jews (notwithstanding discrimination though), and for which getting rid of the Jews had no demographic significance whatsoever, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine was both historically and demographically the constitutive event of the Jewish State.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Moreover: even though Jews were indeed harassed (by the people and/or regimes) in Arab countries following the 1948 war, blaming the Arabs of ethnic cleansing is shamefully cynical when it is imputed by the very Zionists who demanded "let my people go", or by the same Israel that did all it could to force those very countries to let their Jews leave. The global Zionist pressure on each and every country, from the Soviet Union to Syria, to let its Jewish citizens go, was part of Israel’s efforts to consolidate its Jewish majority; that is why Israel always urged Western countries not to let those Jewish immigrants in, lest they fail to make Aliya.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]So oriental Jews were pushed out of Arab countries as a result of the conflict with Israel, and at the same time pulled by Israel, to consolidate its Jewish majority, and by Zionism, that regarded the Jewish state as the only proper place for Jews to live in. It is a major case of hypocrisy to compare those Jewish immigrants to Palestinians who fled or were driven out of Israel to other countries during a war, people for whom Palestine was their only homeland and who found themselves against their will as refugees in foreign and hostile Arab states, people who were willing but not allowed to return home, and whose property was dispossessed by Israel.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Furthermore, this hypocrisy is symptomatic of the way the Israeli establishment treated the oriental Jewish immigrants. They were lured to come to Israel by promises of equality and welfare. They were zionistically indoctrinated to see Israel as their new homeland, in spite of their systematic discrimination compared to Jewish immigrants from European countries. Those who refused this zionisation were outcasts; those who did become Zionist and consider themselves as people returning home from a long exile, now have to take the insult of being described as foreign refugees, just like Palestinians in Kuwait.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The cynicism of the Israeli establishment reached its highest peak when Israel raised the claim that the property of the Palestinian refugees, confiscated by Israel after 1948, was "balanced" by Jewish property left behind in Arab countries. This is a further development of the same manipulative analogy, in which the oriental immigrants are assigned the role of wretched pawns. The masses of oriental Jews, who lost their home and property as a direct result of the establishment of Israel, and then came to Israel and were housed here in poor slums hired to them by the State, never got any compensation for their lost property; Now they hear that the State that they see as their homeland considers them to be mere refugees, and that their lost property is bargained off by this State against some Palestinian property it confiscated, of which they themselves have not seen a cent.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The State of Israel produces a lot of propaganda which is refuted by the slightest critical analysis. The analogy drawn between the Palestinian refugees of 1948 and the Jews from Arab countries is an especially repulsive example of this. It reveals not only how absurd Israel’s propaganda can be, but how humiliating, scornful and dangerous it is for many Israelis. A State that has been unable to grant its own citizens a day of peace in more than 50 years cannot be expected to treat them any better in its propaganda. Supporting Israel’s propaganda and war machines is definitely not the right way to help both peoples of Israel/Palestine to peaceful coexistence.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]– Ran HaCohen[/FONT]​

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h011303.html

And #Juan, it is not a matter of controversy that multiple Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948, five minutes after she and the UN decalared her indepdendence. This constant attempt at revision of history grows tiresome.

Zionist ethnic cleansing, rape, massacres of entire villages and other acts of terror preceded the 1948 war. The war couldn't stop the Zionist atrocities and they continued for some time after the war was effectively over.

..."The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before." p132 Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky

http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelHistory.html

It would be revisionist to claim that Zionists did these things after the war rather than being the causes of war. Palestinians claimed these things happened all along. So did many witnesses as well as the Zionists themselves. In fact, Israeli historians combing through Israeli government archives have found that what Palestinians claimed all along were in fact true and myths like those you believe are in fact revisionist versions of history.


A Review of Ilan Pappe

Ilan Pappe is an Israeli historian and senior lecturer at Haifa University. He's also Academic Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva and Chair of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies. Pappe is an expert on Israel and Zionism and the Palestinians' Right of Return to their homeland, is considered "an honourable academic with integrity and conscience," and is a member of the Advisory Board of the Council for Palestinian Restitution and Repatriation (CPRR), an organization declaring that "every Palestinian has a legitimate, individual right to return to his or her original home and to absolute restitution of his or her property."

Pappe is also one of Israel's "new historians" whose scholarship and writings are based on access to material now available from British Mandate period and Israeli archives that provide the most accurate and authentic documented history of Israel before and after it became a state and which now serve to debunk the myths about the years leading up to the Jewish State's founding and those following it to this day...

...The final master plan was called Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew) following plans A, B, and C preceding it. It was to be a war without mercy complying with what Ben-Gurion said in June, 1938 to the Jewish Agency Executive and never wavering from later: "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." Plan D became the way to do it. It included forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of unwanted Palestinian Arabs in urban and rural areas accompanied by an unknown number of others mass slaughtered to get it done. The goal was simple and straightforward - to create an exclusive Jewish state without an Arab presence by any means including mass-murder.

Once begun, the whole ugly business took six months to complete. It expelled about 800,000 people, killed many others, and destroyed 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods in cities like Tel-Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem. The action was a clear case of ethnic cleansing that international law today calls a crime against humanity for which convicted Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged. So far Israelis have always remained immune from international law even though names of guilty leaders and those charged with implementing their orders are known as well as the crimes they committed.

They included cold-blooded mass-murder; destruction of homes, villages and crops; rapes; other atrocities; and massacres of defenseless people given no quarter including women and children. The crimes were suppressed and expunged from official accounts as Israeli historiography cooked up the myth that Palestinians left voluntarily fearing harm from invading Arab armies. It was a lie covering up Israeli crimes Palestinians call the Nakba - the catastrophe or disaster that's still a cold, harsh festering unresolved injustice.

Even with British armed presence still in charge of law and order before its Mandate ended, Jewish forces completed the expulsion of about 250,000 Palestinians the Brits did nothing to stop. It continued unabated because when neighboring Arab states finally intervened, they did so without conviction. They came belatedly and with only small, ill-equipped forces, no match for a superior, well-armed Israeli military easily able to prevail as discussed below...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4715

The above information comes from Israeli and British government archives.

Israel's creation was analogous to armed robbery on a massive scale. Armed gangs robbed hundreds of thousands of non-Jewish Palestinians of everything they owned starting in 1947... before the war. They lost their homes, businesses, farmland, bank accounts, jewelry...

Ethnic cleansing, rapes, massacres and other atrocities and terrorist acts related to Zionism triggered the 1948 war.

This is not revisionist history but what Palestinians have claimed all along and confirmed by Israeli historians combing through declassified Israeli government archives.

More references:
http://www.logosjournal.com/issue3.1.htm

Its about time that the truth which is well known and documented finally replaces the myths and revisionist history propagated by Israeli apologists.
 
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#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Its about time that the truth which is well known and documented finally replaces the myths and revisionist history propagated by Israeli apologists.

Yes!......by all means...
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Machjo

How can we even entertain the possibility that the way of one mans thinking or the example that one man sets....is capable of addressing the propensity for self-delusion, self-aggrandizement...and self-destruction that seems so "natural" across the human horizon when you review history?

Aren't we really faced with an internal struggle? Isn't it up to each human being to recognize that we're all in this together....that China's puffing of carbon dioxide and poision into the atmosphere is being paid for by the consumer societies who flock to buy trash they don't need and are only told they "want"?

Doesn't the change in human thought have to...like knowledge ...or democracy....have to arise from within....?

"The plain truth, very plain, we think is, that ... one
man that has a higher Wisdom, a hitherto unknown
spiritual Truth in him, is stronger, not than ten men that
have it not, or than ten thousand, but than all men that
have it not; and stands among them with a quite ethereal,
angelic power, as with a sword out of Heaven's own armory,
sky-tempered, which no buckler, and no tower of
brass, will finally withstand."

(Thomas Carlyle in Sign of the Times)

One man can make a great change. Others follow, and others, and others and others. He starts a train, and his influence might see effect only after his death, maybe long after, but it's there.

They're laying the foundations.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
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The drawings say it all.

That reminds me of the old George Carlin bit where he talks about the ad for acne cream in the back of comic books. You KNOW it works, because there's a little drawing of a girl with dots on her face, then a drawing of the same girl with no more dots on her face!! :lol

Your maps are meaningless. Most obviously, they don't account for state land, which was roughly 50%. Secondly, you have all of the area south of Beersheba marked as Palestinian land, which then of course magically become Israeli land. That area is all uninhabitable desert. Sheesh, and I get criticised for having the audacity to include Jordan as part of Palestine when calculating percentages. You guys set the rule, live by it.

Secondly, you're embarking on a fallacy of equivocation. You present your maps as if you're presenting a map of land ownership distribution in greater Vancouver. You try to create the impression that these lands were wrenched from the hands of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who owned and lived on it for generations. That's simply not the case. That's a misleading falsehood. Most of the land was owned by Emir's in Beirut and Damascus who's only connection with it was collecting taxes and rent. Most of the Arab tenants were newcomers same as the Zionists.

Zionism from its inception recognized that because native Arabs already inhabited most of the arable land, Israel could only be created by driving Arabs off their land.

That's gotta be the most desperate attempt to villify Israel that I've heard yet, and I've heard a lot of them. Most of the arable land in Palestine was in the West Bank, which, in case you've forgotten your history...went to the Arabs!!

The Jews didn't take arable land from Arabs, they bought swampland and drained it. They bought desert and irrigated it. Then they hired Arabs to work it. Arabs who would otherwise have had nothing to do with Palestine. That's why Arab immigration to Palestine was so high from the mid 1800's until the early 1900's. We all know why the Zionists came there, but why do you suppose all those Arabs suddenly decided to move there, after centuries of Palestine being nothing more than a backwoods unpopulated desert hinterland?

Israel's 1967 war of aggression

That nicely sums up the credibility of that little piece.

If you want a more credible summary of the reality of land ownership go here:
http://nakba.sis.gov.ps/english/British-mandate/Land Ownership.html


The distribution of lands in Palestine in 1943:
In 1943, the area of the state land estimated at 1,542,680 dunums distributed as the following:

Types of lands


The area in dunums


The lands used for public purposes as Roads, the railroads and forests.


839,553


The lands of Arabs since the issuance of the Ottoman law


172,691


The lands leasing for Jews for long time


175,088


The lands


2,433


The lands leasing for Jews less than 3 years


1,222


Lands neither for Arabs nor for Jews


62,522


Lands offered for easing for a short time


3,249


20, 082


Public lands


Uncultivated lands as sand-rocks and swamps


4,713


Unoccupied lands


167,429


84, 699


Total


1.542
 
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#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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The following was written by Jews who know what happened:

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

I'll give you the first few paragraphs:
[SIZE=+2]Published by
Jews for Justice in the Middle East[/SIZE]


As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational "terrorists" who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes - on both sides - inevitably follow from this original injustice.
This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region's problems should consist of. If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record.
[SIZE=+3]Introduction[/SIZE]
The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs' inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.
The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)
In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.
One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930's and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.
But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.