U.S.: Did President Bush Order Torture?

[moghrabi]

yes. it boils down to that. Doesn't it?

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I find your devotion to Dubya both sad and pathetic...

The entire Bush family stinks of corruption and worse...there's far more evidence of this than I could hope to present here...

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/bushfamily/bushfamily1.htm

It's well documented that Prescott Bush helped fund the Nazi war machine...

George H.W. Bush before he became President was up to his ass in Iran-Contra...

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Bushes were behind the botched assassination attempt on Reagan...the VPs son was to have dinner with the would-be assassin's brother on the night of the shooting...hmmm

...and in Neil Bush's initial statement to the press, he and his wife mentioned huge campaign contributions from the Hinckley family, only to retract that statement a few days later...hmmm

...however, not once was the Bush family approached by the FBI to get a statement concerning the relationship between the Bush's and the Hinckley's...

Kind of like the relationship between the Bushes and Bin Ladens...I guess having connections in the intelligence community can really save your ass from being charged with treason...

Then there's baby Bush...George W. has stolen not one, but two presidential elections...started 2 wars in his first term...both on false pretenses...

He's guilty of war crimes on a massive scale for sanctioning torture, indescriminate and descriminate killing of civillians, and authorizing the use of banned weapons of mass destruction (DU)...

He's raped the US economy...polarized the nation against people of Islam...he's played fast and loose with international law, and shat upon your own constitution with the enactment of the Patriot Act and the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 (Patriot II Act), and just generally set the social progression of the nation back at least a hundred years...

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

These evil bastards and their cronies have been responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths over the years...and you still voted for them...

...before you voted, you should have taken the quiz...

http://www.romm.org/bushquiz.html

Yeah Sewer...you're a real winner for voting for these f**king Bozos...

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hey! Vanni Fucci

I really enjoyed reading the "Bush Family Quiz". Thanks for the link.

I found this quite interesting.

The Life and Crimes of George W. Bush
By Jeffrey St. Clair
August 31, 2004
http://www.counterpunch.com/stclair08312004.html

 

[moghrabi]

Thanks Vanni. The links are very good. You words are even better.

 

[Paco]

Your country signed on to these laws. You actually helped write them. You scream like banshees when somebody else breaks them, but feel you should be above them. It doesn't work that way, Paco. Either you are a law-abiding nation or you are a rogue state.

Well, there you have it. You didn’t want to say it but it came out anyway. Treaties. Contracts. Binding as long as both sides continue to honor them. You may call them laws, but without enforcement from a higher authority they are not laws.

For those who despise sovereign nations and wish for global reconciliation I see where treaties are tantamount to “law.” However the world has never been global. Sovereign nations have changed alliances with others and broken treaties as long as man has lived. This utopian ideal you have just doesn’t fit with historical humanity.

The FBI just kicked the living crap out of the Bush administration over prisoner treatment and released documents that made it clear that the orders came from the top.

Documents released by the FBI make it pretty clear that did condone the use of torture. That would mean that he broke not just international law, but US domestic law. Your president is criminal, Seward.

You cannot be referring to the “FBI email.” If you are, you certainly have a crystal ball that affords you much more knowledge and clarity than the rest of us are privy to.

I am. Those e-mails have been widely reported on in the press and they clearly indicate that the trail goes all the way to the top. You already know that though.

According to the FBI email linked in this thread there is no smoking gun and it would appear the FBI is confused. They continually refer to an Executive Order, however no Order exists. Executive Orders are documented and can be found at

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/2004.html

Further, what the ACLU and you characterize as torture is described by the FBI as “…techniques beyond the bounds of FBI practice… (e.g. sleep deprivation, stress positions, loud music, etc.)… We emphatically do not equate any of these things with the sickening abuse at Abu G.”

The email goes on to say, “We will consider as abuse any physical beatings, sexual humiliation or touching, and other conduct clearly constituting abuse.” They did not report seeing any such abuse. The entire email was a request for guidance. The FBI was asking for a definition of abuse.

Now, if the FBI (who are experienced in interrogation techniques) has questions on what is abuse and what is not, what makes you a fucking expert? How does some little weenie-ass Canuck get to classify it all as torture?

Stress positions? Sleep deprivation? Want to experience it? Join the U.S. Army. You’ll get 13 weeks of it during basic training. 16 hours a day. No music though. However, you can experience loud noises. That would be a drill sergeant screaming in your ear most of the day.

Torture. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so fucking stupid.

 

[Paco]

Your country signed on to these laws. You actually helped write them. You scream like banshees when somebody else breaks them, but feel you should be above them. It doesn't work that way, Paco. Either you are a law-abiding nation or you are a rogue state.

Well, there you have it. You didn’t want to say it but it came out anyway. Treaties. Contracts. Binding as long as both sides continue to honor them. You may call them laws, but without enforcement from a higher authority they are not laws.

For those who despise sovereign nations and wish for global reconciliation I see where treaties are tantamount to “law.” However the world has never been global. Sovereign nations have changed alliances with others and broken treaties as long as man has lived. This utopian ideal you have just doesn’t fit with historical humanity.

The FBI just kicked the living crap out of the Bush administration over prisoner treatment and released documents that made it clear that the orders came from the top.

Documents released by the FBI make it pretty clear that did condone the use of torture. That would mean that he broke not just international law, but US domestic law. Your president is criminal, Seward.

You cannot be referring to the “FBI email.” If you are, you certainly have a crystal ball that affords you much more knowledge and clarity than the rest of us are privy to.

I am. Those e-mails have been widely reported on in the press and they clearly indicate that the trail goes all the way to the top. You already know that though.

According to the FBI email linked in this thread there is no smoking gun and it would appear the FBI is confused. They continually refer to an Executive Order, however no Order exists. Executive Orders are documented and can be found at

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/2004.html

Further, what the ACLU and you characterize as torture is described by the FBI as “…techniques beyond the bounds of FBI practice… (e.g. sleep deprivation, stress positions, loud music, etc.)… We emphatically do not equate any of these things with the sickening abuse at Abu G.”

The email goes on to say, “We will consider as abuse any physical beatings, sexual humiliation or touching, and other conduct clearly constituting abuse.” They did not report seeing any such abuse. The entire email was a request for guidance. The FBI was asking for a definition of abuse.

Now, if the FBI (who are experienced in interrogation techniques) has questions on what is abuse and what is not, what makes you a fucking expert? How does some little weenie-ass Canuck get to classify it all as torture?

Stress positions? Sleep deprivation? Want to experience it? Join the U.S. Army. You’ll get 13 weeks of it during basic training. 16 hours a day. No music though. However, you can experience loud noises. That would be a drill sergeant screaming in your ear most of the day.

Torture. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so fucking stupid.

 

[Paco]

Your country signed on to these laws. You actually helped write them. You scream like banshees when somebody else breaks them, but feel you should be above them. It doesn't work that way, Paco. Either you are a law-abiding nation or you are a rogue state.

Well, there you have it. You didn’t want to say it but it came out anyway. Treaties. Contracts. Binding as long as both sides continue to honor them. You may call them laws, but without enforcement from a higher authority they are not laws.

For those who despise sovereign nations and wish for global reconciliation I see where treaties are tantamount to “law.” However the world has never been global. Sovereign nations have changed alliances with others and broken treaties as long as man has lived. This utopian ideal you have just doesn’t fit with historical humanity.

The FBI just kicked the living crap out of the Bush administration over prisoner treatment and released documents that made it clear that the orders came from the top.

Documents released by the FBI make it pretty clear that did condone the use of torture. That would mean that he broke not just international law, but US domestic law. Your president is criminal, Seward.

You cannot be referring to the “FBI email.” If you are, you certainly have a crystal ball that affords you much more knowledge and clarity than the rest of us are privy to.

I am. Those e-mails have been widely reported on in the press and they clearly indicate that the trail goes all the way to the top. You already know that though.

According to the FBI email linked in this thread there is no smoking gun and it would appear the FBI is confused. They continually refer to an Executive Order, however no Order exists. Executive Orders are documented and can be found at

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/2004.html

Further, what the ACLU and you characterize as torture is described by the FBI as “…techniques beyond the bounds of FBI practice… (e.g. sleep deprivation, stress positions, loud music, etc.)… We emphatically do not equate any of these things with the sickening abuse at Abu G.”

The email goes on to say, “We will consider as abuse any physical beatings, sexual humiliation or touching, and other conduct clearly constituting abuse.” They did not report seeing any such abuse. The entire email was a request for guidance. The FBI was asking for a definition of abuse.

Now, if the FBI (who are experienced in interrogation techniques) has questions on what is abuse and what is not, what makes you a fucking expert? How does some little weenie-ass Canuck get to classify it all as torture?

Stress positions? Sleep deprivation? Want to experience it? Join the U.S. Army. You’ll get 13 weeks of it during basic training. 16 hours a day. No music though. However, you can experience loud noises. That would be a drill sergeant screaming in your ear most of the day.

Torture. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so fucking stupid.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

The Question Was: Did Bush Order Torture?

That is like asking "Did all the corporation presidents "order" the falsifying of financial documents?" during the collapse of internet stock.

We can't prove it! But, God Damn .... we all agree that they should of known. We all agree that it took place because there was a "culture" of lies, deceit and shredding of documents.

The same thing goes for Bush and The Boys torturing people.

If Bush can "legally" drop a 500 pound bomb on a mud hut in Baghdad and not worry about collateral damage .... Is an obscene torture upon any Iraqi closing his eyes tonight and trying to sleep.
I think it is torture having to live under those circumstances.

These prisoners were "collateral" damage.

Torture was the culture of Bush showing that "My God Is Stronger Than Your God"

Left Hook Exclusive: An Interview with an Anti-war Veteran from the Iraq War Jim Talib HM3 (FMF/PJ)
By Derek Seidman
November 29, 2004

Question:
It must have been horrible for you, being against all this, being, as you said, in the exact position you dreaded, that of an occupier. What types of things were you told to do that we're not hearing about here? What do you want people here to know about what happened, about what you saw and what you were ordered to do, and about the situation there generally?

Answer:
It was a pretty miserable and complicated experience, some days were more agonizing than others. As a Corpsman I was able to avoid many situations that my Marines either relished or did not refuse. I was witness to the detention and mistreatment of civilians, there were several incidents of people in my Battalion shooting civilians, but things like that shouldn't really surprise anyone with all the detailed coverage of Abu Ghuraib and the recent incursions into Fallujah. Some of it was investigated, but most of the time it was just ignored. That kind of stuff was just so common, though not always as sensational or as well documented as the abuse at Abu Ghuraib.

On one of my trips to drop off a detainee at the jail, the Senior Interrogator told us not to bring them in any more. 'Just shoot them' he said, I was stunned, I couldn't believe he actually said it. He was not joking around, he was giving us a directive. A few days later a group of Humvees from another unit passed by one of our machine gun positions, and they had the bodies of two dead Iraqi's strapped to their hoods like a couple of deer. One of the bodies had exposed brain matter that had begun to cook onto the hood of the vehicle, it was a gruesome, medieval display. So much of what I experienced seemed out of control, I saw so little respect for the living and almost none for the dead, and there was almost no accountability.
http://www.lefthook.org/Interviews/SeidmanTalib112904.html

Calm

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

The Question Was: Did Bush Order Torture?

That is like asking "Did all the corporation presidents "order" the falsifying of financial documents?" during the collapse of internet stock.

We can't prove it! But, God Damn .... we all agree that they should of known. We all agree that it took place because there was a "culture" of lies, deceit and shredding of documents.

The same thing goes for Bush and The Boys torturing people.

If Bush can "legally" drop a 500 pound bomb on a mud hut in Baghdad and not worry about collateral damage .... Is an obscene torture upon any Iraqi closing his eyes tonight and trying to sleep.
I think it is torture having to live under those circumstances.

These prisoners were "collateral" damage.

Torture was the culture of Bush showing that "My God Is Stronger Than Your God"

Left Hook Exclusive: An Interview with an Anti-war Veteran from the Iraq War Jim Talib HM3 (FMF/PJ)
By Derek Seidman
November 29, 2004

Question:
It must have been horrible for you, being against all this, being, as you said, in the exact position you dreaded, that of an occupier. What types of things were you told to do that we're not hearing about here? What do you want people here to know about what happened, about what you saw and what you were ordered to do, and about the situation there generally?

Answer:
It was a pretty miserable and complicated experience, some days were more agonizing than others. As a Corpsman I was able to avoid many situations that my Marines either relished or did not refuse. I was witness to the detention and mistreatment of civilians, there were several incidents of people in my Battalion shooting civilians, but things like that shouldn't really surprise anyone with all the detailed coverage of Abu Ghuraib and the recent incursions into Fallujah. Some of it was investigated, but most of the time it was just ignored. That kind of stuff was just so common, though not always as sensational or as well documented as the abuse at Abu Ghuraib.

On one of my trips to drop off a detainee at the jail, the Senior Interrogator told us not to bring them in any more. 'Just shoot them' he said, I was stunned, I couldn't believe he actually said it. He was not joking around, he was giving us a directive. A few days later a group of Humvees from another unit passed by one of our machine gun positions, and they had the bodies of two dead Iraqi's strapped to their hoods like a couple of deer. One of the bodies had exposed brain matter that had begun to cook onto the hood of the vehicle, it was a gruesome, medieval display. So much of what I experienced seemed out of control, I saw so little respect for the living and almost none for the dead, and there was almost no accountability.
http://www.lefthook.org/Interviews/SeidmanTalib112904.html

Calm

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

The Question Was: Did Bush Order Torture?

That is like asking "Did all the corporation presidents "order" the falsifying of financial documents?" during the collapse of internet stock.

We can't prove it! But, God Damn .... we all agree that they should of known. We all agree that it took place because there was a "culture" of lies, deceit and shredding of documents.

The same thing goes for Bush and The Boys torturing people.

If Bush can "legally" drop a 500 pound bomb on a mud hut in Baghdad and not worry about collateral damage .... Is an obscene torture upon any Iraqi closing his eyes tonight and trying to sleep.
I think it is torture having to live under those circumstances.

These prisoners were "collateral" damage.

Torture was the culture of Bush showing that "My God Is Stronger Than Your God"

Left Hook Exclusive: An Interview with an Anti-war Veteran from the Iraq War Jim Talib HM3 (FMF/PJ)
By Derek Seidman
November 29, 2004

Question:
It must have been horrible for you, being against all this, being, as you said, in the exact position you dreaded, that of an occupier. What types of things were you told to do that we're not hearing about here? What do you want people here to know about what happened, about what you saw and what you were ordered to do, and about the situation there generally?

Answer:
It was a pretty miserable and complicated experience, some days were more agonizing than others. As a Corpsman I was able to avoid many situations that my Marines either relished or did not refuse. I was witness to the detention and mistreatment of civilians, there were several incidents of people in my Battalion shooting civilians, but things like that shouldn't really surprise anyone with all the detailed coverage of Abu Ghuraib and the recent incursions into Fallujah. Some of it was investigated, but most of the time it was just ignored. That kind of stuff was just so common, though not always as sensational or as well documented as the abuse at Abu Ghuraib.

On one of my trips to drop off a detainee at the jail, the Senior Interrogator told us not to bring them in any more. 'Just shoot them' he said, I was stunned, I couldn't believe he actually said it. He was not joking around, he was giving us a directive. A few days later a group of Humvees from another unit passed by one of our machine gun positions, and they had the bodies of two dead Iraqi's strapped to their hoods like a couple of deer. One of the bodies had exposed brain matter that had begun to cook onto the hood of the vehicle, it was a gruesome, medieval display. So much of what I experienced seemed out of control, I saw so little respect for the living and almost none for the dead, and there was almost no accountability.
http://www.lefthook.org/Interviews/SeidmanTalib112904.html

Calm

 

[moghrabi]

Torture. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so *censored* stupid.

Witness: Abu Ghraib suspect punched prisoner
Spc. Graner, alleged ringleader of prison abuse, is first to be tried

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 7:57 p.m. ET Jan. 10, 2005


FORT HOOD, Texas - The alleged ringleader of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal went on trial Monday with witnesses telling a military court they watched him punch an Iraqi inmate in the face and saw him laugh while forcing prisoners to pose naked.

Spc. Charles Graner Jr. is the first soldier accused in the scandal to go on trial. His case is an important test of an argument put forth by defense attorneys that the soldiers were ordered to soften up detainees for interrogators and had no choice but to obey.

A military guard testified Monday that he saw Graner punch an Iraqi detainee in the face a moment after a notorious photo was taken at Abu Ghraib prison.

Another witness said Graner was “laughing and having a good time” while making naked prisoners pose.

Testimony got under way Monday after opening statements in which Graner’s military attorney, Guy Womack, defended the practices shown in the notorious photos as legitimate prisoner control techniques. Prosecutors also showed video previously not made public of a group of detainees being forced to masturbate.

Spc. Matthew Wisdom, the first witness in Graner’s court-martial, said Graner was among a number of guards who roughed up detainees on Nov. 7, 2003.

Wisdom described a prominent photo from Abu Ghraib that showed the muscular Graner holding a prisoner as if he were about to strike him in the face.

The witness said Graner cocked his arm while the picture was taken, and then he punched the prisoner.

Asked how hard Graner hit the prisoner, Wisdom said, “If I was that detainee, I know that it would be very painful.”

Wisdom said he was urged to participate in abuse, but that he instead reported it to his immediate superior.

“I was very upset,” he said. “It made me kind of sick, almost. It didn’t seem right.”

Graner, a 36-year-old former prison guard from Uniontown, Pa., is charged with conspiracy to maltreat Iraqi detainees, assault, dereliction of duty and committing indecent acts.

An all-male jury of four Army officers and six senior enlisted men will decide his fate in what is expected to be a weeklong trial. If convicted on all counts, he faces up to 17½ years in a military prison. Graner has pleaded not guilty.

Under military law, a conviction requires guilty votes by seven of the 10 jurors, all of whom have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

‘Trying to get the job done’
Wisdom testified that he did not see Graner when a naked Iraqi was allegedly forced to masturbate. The incident is the basis of one of the maltreatment charges against Graner.

That was supported by Pvt. Ivan Frederick, who told the court that he was the one who initiated that episode.

Frederick is a former staff sergeant who last summer was sentenced to eight years in prison for his actions at Abu Ghraib, which included punching a detainee hard enough in the chest to require medical attention. As part of his plea deal, he agreed to testify against Graner.

Under cross-examination, Frederick said Graner was on another floor of the prison during the masturbation incident.

But another member of the 372nd Military Police Company said Graner was not only there, but that the defendant photographed a simulated oral sex scene.



Pvt. Jeremy Sivits, who in May pleaded guilty to taking part in abuse, said Graner was in charge of stacking naked prisoners into a human pyramid with which he later posed for pictures.


“He was trying to get the job done, but he was also laughing and having a good time,” said Sivits, who told the court that his testimony against Graner was part of his plea deal.

Sivits received the maximum sentence of one year in prison, a reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge.

Army prosecutor Maj. Michael Holley conceded during opening statements that there were problems at Abu Ghraib but that those difficulties did not justify Graner’s actions. “Anyone would say, ‘That’s illegal, that’s beyond the pale,”’ he said.

Officers said to order rough behavior
Defense lawyer Womack said Graner and his comrades were rewarded. “The more aggressive they became, the more information they got and the more praise they got,” he said.

Frederick testified during cross-examination that he and the other guards, including Graner, took orders mostly from military and civilian intelligence officers who encouraged rough treatment of detainees as a way to get useful information.

He said the guards received no training in handling prisoners with intelligence value, and that their actions were not closely watched.

“Who directed you in your day-to-day activities?” asked Col. James Pohl, the judge.

“Nobody, really,” Frederick responded.

Two other members of Graner’s unit who have made plea deals are scheduled to testify against him.

Three more soldiers from the 372nd also are awaiting trial at Fort Hood. One is Lynndie England, who in October gave birth to a child who Army prosecutors say was the result of a relationship with Graner.

After prosecutors screened grainy video that was previously not made public showing naked and hooded Iraqi male prisoners masturbating, Frederick said Graner and England joked about the incident.

“He (Graner) said something to the fact that it was a present for her birthday,” said Frederick, who, like Graner, was also a prison guard in civilian life.

Legitimate means of control?
The prosecution showed some of the photos taken at Abu Ghraib in their opening argument, including several of naked Iraqi men piled on each other and another of England holding a crawling naked Iraqi man on a leash.

In his opening arguments, Womack said using a tether was a valid method of controlling detainees, especially those who might be soiled with feces.

“You’re keeping control of them. A tether is a valid control to be used in corrections,” he said. “In Texas we’d lasso them and drag them out of there.” He compared the leash to parents who place tethers on their toddlers while walking in shopping malls.



Referring to stacking the prisoners, Womack said: "Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year? Is that torture?"

Womack also said that Graner was "doing his job, following orders and being praised for it."

The chief prosecutor, Maj. Michael Holley, asked rhetorically, "Did the accused honestly believe that was a lawful order?"

The Bush administration has said the actions were those of a small group and were not part of a policy or condoned by senior officers.

But investigations have shown many prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and at the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba also suffered abusive treatment after the government considered ways to obtain information in the war against terrorism.

Womack said U.S. embarrassment over the Abu Ghraib photographs had prompted the charges against his client. “The embarrassment puts pressure on the government: How do we mollify the world and make them like us again?” he said.

Graner may take the stand
Womack said over the weekend that while he almost never lets his clients take the stand, he may bend that rule for the Graner, of Uniontown, Pa.

“He is a calm, cool professional. He’s very articulate, very bright,” Womack said of the one-time prison guard. “Frankly, I don’t know anyone else in the case who can articulate everything as well as he can, so that would be a strong reason for him to testify.”

In addition to others caught up in the prisoner abuse scandal, Sgt. Joseph Darby, who first reported the alleged abuse, also is scheduled to testify. As many as three Iraqi detainees may testify via videotaped deposition.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6795956/

 

[moghrabi]

Torture. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so *censored* stupid.

Witness: Abu Ghraib suspect punched prisoner
Spc. Graner, alleged ringleader of prison abuse, is first to be tried

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 7:57 p.m. ET Jan. 10, 2005


FORT HOOD, Texas - The alleged ringleader of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal went on trial Monday with witnesses telling a military court they watched him punch an Iraqi inmate in the face and saw him laugh while forcing prisoners to pose naked.

Spc. Charles Graner Jr. is the first soldier accused in the scandal to go on trial. His case is an important test of an argument put forth by defense attorneys that the soldiers were ordered to soften up detainees for interrogators and had no choice but to obey.

A military guard testified Monday that he saw Graner punch an Iraqi detainee in the face a moment after a notorious photo was taken at Abu Ghraib prison.

Another witness said Graner was “laughing and having a good time” while making naked prisoners pose.

Testimony got under way Monday after opening statements in which Graner’s military attorney, Guy Womack, defended the practices shown in the notorious photos as legitimate prisoner control techniques. Prosecutors also showed video previously not made public of a group of detainees being forced to masturbate.

Spc. Matthew Wisdom, the first witness in Graner’s court-martial, said Graner was among a number of guards who roughed up detainees on Nov. 7, 2003.

Wisdom described a prominent photo from Abu Ghraib that showed the muscular Graner holding a prisoner as if he were about to strike him in the face.

The witness said Graner cocked his arm while the picture was taken, and then he punched the prisoner.

Asked how hard Graner hit the prisoner, Wisdom said, “If I was that detainee, I know that it would be very painful.”

Wisdom said he was urged to participate in abuse, but that he instead reported it to his immediate superior.

“I was very upset,” he said. “It made me kind of sick, almost. It didn’t seem right.”

Graner, a 36-year-old former prison guard from Uniontown, Pa., is charged with conspiracy to maltreat Iraqi detainees, assault, dereliction of duty and committing indecent acts.

An all-male jury of four Army officers and six senior enlisted men will decide his fate in what is expected to be a weeklong trial. If convicted on all counts, he faces up to 17½ years in a military prison. Graner has pleaded not guilty.

Under military law, a conviction requires guilty votes by seven of the 10 jurors, all of whom have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

‘Trying to get the job done’
Wisdom testified that he did not see Graner when a naked Iraqi was allegedly forced to masturbate. The incident is the basis of one of the maltreatment charges against Graner.

That was supported by Pvt. Ivan Frederick, who told the court that he was the one who initiated that episode.

Frederick is a former staff sergeant who last summer was sentenced to eight years in prison for his actions at Abu Ghraib, which included punching a detainee hard enough in the chest to require medical attention. As part of his plea deal, he agreed to testify against Graner.

Under cross-examination, Frederick said Graner was on another floor of the prison during the masturbation incident.

But another member of the 372nd Military Police Company said Graner was not only there, but that the defendant photographed a simulated oral sex scene.



Pvt. Jeremy Sivits, who in May pleaded guilty to taking part in abuse, said Graner was in charge of stacking naked prisoners into a human pyramid with which he later posed for pictures.


“He was trying to get the job done, but he was also laughing and having a good time,” said Sivits, who told the court that his testimony against Graner was part of his plea deal.

Sivits received the maximum sentence of one year in prison, a reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge.

Army prosecutor Maj. Michael Holley conceded during opening statements that there were problems at Abu Ghraib but that those difficulties did not justify Graner’s actions. “Anyone would say, ‘That’s illegal, that’s beyond the pale,”’ he said.

Officers said to order rough behavior
Defense lawyer Womack said Graner and his comrades were rewarded. “The more aggressive they became, the more information they got and the more praise they got,” he said.

Frederick testified during cross-examination that he and the other guards, including Graner, took orders mostly from military and civilian intelligence officers who encouraged rough treatment of detainees as a way to get useful information.

He said the guards received no training in handling prisoners with intelligence value, and that their actions were not closely watched.

“Who directed you in your day-to-day activities?” asked Col. James Pohl, the judge.

“Nobody, really,” Frederick responded.

Two other members of Graner’s unit who have made plea deals are scheduled to testify against him.

Three more soldiers from the 372nd also are awaiting trial at Fort Hood. One is Lynndie England, who in October gave birth to a child who Army prosecutors say was the result of a relationship with Graner.

After prosecutors screened grainy video that was previously not made public showing naked and hooded Iraqi male prisoners masturbating, Frederick said Graner and England joked about the incident.

“He (Graner) said something to the fact that it was a present for her birthday,” said Frederick, who, like Graner, was also a prison guard in civilian life.

Legitimate means of control?
The prosecution showed some of the photos taken at Abu Ghraib in their opening argument, including several of naked Iraqi men piled on each other and another of England holding a crawling naked Iraqi man on a leash.

In his opening arguments, Womack said using a tether was a valid method of controlling detainees, especially those who might be soiled with feces.

“You’re keeping control of them. A tether is a valid control to be used in corrections,” he said. “In Texas we’d lasso them and drag them out of there.” He compared the leash to parents who place tethers on their toddlers while walking in shopping malls.



Referring to stacking the prisoners, Womack said: "Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year? Is that torture?"

Womack also said that Graner was "doing his job, following orders and being praised for it."

The chief prosecutor, Maj. Michael Holley, asked rhetorically, "Did the accused honestly believe that was a lawful order?"

The Bush administration has said the actions were those of a small group and were not part of a policy or condoned by senior officers.

But investigations have shown many prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and at the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba also suffered abusive treatment after the government considered ways to obtain information in the war against terrorism.

Womack said U.S. embarrassment over the Abu Ghraib photographs had prompted the charges against his client. “The embarrassment puts pressure on the government: How do we mollify the world and make them like us again?” he said.

Graner may take the stand
Womack said over the weekend that while he almost never lets his clients take the stand, he may bend that rule for the Graner, of Uniontown, Pa.

“He is a calm, cool professional. He’s very articulate, very bright,” Womack said of the one-time prison guard. “Frankly, I don’t know anyone else in the case who can articulate everything as well as he can, so that would be a strong reason for him to testify.”

In addition to others caught up in the prisoner abuse scandal, Sgt. Joseph Darby, who first reported the alleged abuse, also is scheduled to testify. As many as three Iraqi detainees may testify via videotaped deposition.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6795956/

 

[moghrabi]

Torture. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so *censored* stupid.

Witness: Abu Ghraib suspect punched prisoner
Spc. Graner, alleged ringleader of prison abuse, is first to be tried

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 7:57 p.m. ET Jan. 10, 2005


FORT HOOD, Texas - The alleged ringleader of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal went on trial Monday with witnesses telling a military court they watched him punch an Iraqi inmate in the face and saw him laugh while forcing prisoners to pose naked.

Spc. Charles Graner Jr. is the first soldier accused in the scandal to go on trial. His case is an important test of an argument put forth by defense attorneys that the soldiers were ordered to soften up detainees for interrogators and had no choice but to obey.

A military guard testified Monday that he saw Graner punch an Iraqi detainee in the face a moment after a notorious photo was taken at Abu Ghraib prison.

Another witness said Graner was “laughing and having a good time” while making naked prisoners pose.

Testimony got under way Monday after opening statements in which Graner’s military attorney, Guy Womack, defended the practices shown in the notorious photos as legitimate prisoner control techniques. Prosecutors also showed video previously not made public of a group of detainees being forced to masturbate.

Spc. Matthew Wisdom, the first witness in Graner’s court-martial, said Graner was among a number of guards who roughed up detainees on Nov. 7, 2003.

Wisdom described a prominent photo from Abu Ghraib that showed the muscular Graner holding a prisoner as if he were about to strike him in the face.

The witness said Graner cocked his arm while the picture was taken, and then he punched the prisoner.

Asked how hard Graner hit the prisoner, Wisdom said, “If I was that detainee, I know that it would be very painful.”

Wisdom said he was urged to participate in abuse, but that he instead reported it to his immediate superior.

“I was very upset,” he said. “It made me kind of sick, almost. It didn’t seem right.”

Graner, a 36-year-old former prison guard from Uniontown, Pa., is charged with conspiracy to maltreat Iraqi detainees, assault, dereliction of duty and committing indecent acts.

An all-male jury of four Army officers and six senior enlisted men will decide his fate in what is expected to be a weeklong trial. If convicted on all counts, he faces up to 17½ years in a military prison. Graner has pleaded not guilty.

Under military law, a conviction requires guilty votes by seven of the 10 jurors, all of whom have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

‘Trying to get the job done’
Wisdom testified that he did not see Graner when a naked Iraqi was allegedly forced to masturbate. The incident is the basis of one of the maltreatment charges against Graner.

That was supported by Pvt. Ivan Frederick, who told the court that he was the one who initiated that episode.

Frederick is a former staff sergeant who last summer was sentenced to eight years in prison for his actions at Abu Ghraib, which included punching a detainee hard enough in the chest to require medical attention. As part of his plea deal, he agreed to testify against Graner.

Under cross-examination, Frederick said Graner was on another floor of the prison during the masturbation incident.

But another member of the 372nd Military Police Company said Graner was not only there, but that the defendant photographed a simulated oral sex scene.



Pvt. Jeremy Sivits, who in May pleaded guilty to taking part in abuse, said Graner was in charge of stacking naked prisoners into a human pyramid with which he later posed for pictures.


“He was trying to get the job done, but he was also laughing and having a good time,” said Sivits, who told the court that his testimony against Graner was part of his plea deal.

Sivits received the maximum sentence of one year in prison, a reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge.

Army prosecutor Maj. Michael Holley conceded during opening statements that there were problems at Abu Ghraib but that those difficulties did not justify Graner’s actions. “Anyone would say, ‘That’s illegal, that’s beyond the pale,”’ he said.

Officers said to order rough behavior
Defense lawyer Womack said Graner and his comrades were rewarded. “The more aggressive they became, the more information they got and the more praise they got,” he said.

Frederick testified during cross-examination that he and the other guards, including Graner, took orders mostly from military and civilian intelligence officers who encouraged rough treatment of detainees as a way to get useful information.

He said the guards received no training in handling prisoners with intelligence value, and that their actions were not closely watched.

“Who directed you in your day-to-day activities?” asked Col. James Pohl, the judge.

“Nobody, really,” Frederick responded.

Two other members of Graner’s unit who have made plea deals are scheduled to testify against him.

Three more soldiers from the 372nd also are awaiting trial at Fort Hood. One is Lynndie England, who in October gave birth to a child who Army prosecutors say was the result of a relationship with Graner.

After prosecutors screened grainy video that was previously not made public showing naked and hooded Iraqi male prisoners masturbating, Frederick said Graner and England joked about the incident.

“He (Graner) said something to the fact that it was a present for her birthday,” said Frederick, who, like Graner, was also a prison guard in civilian life.

Legitimate means of control?
The prosecution showed some of the photos taken at Abu Ghraib in their opening argument, including several of naked Iraqi men piled on each other and another of England holding a crawling naked Iraqi man on a leash.

In his opening arguments, Womack said using a tether was a valid method of controlling detainees, especially those who might be soiled with feces.

“You’re keeping control of them. A tether is a valid control to be used in corrections,” he said. “In Texas we’d lasso them and drag them out of there.” He compared the leash to parents who place tethers on their toddlers while walking in shopping malls.



Referring to stacking the prisoners, Womack said: "Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year? Is that torture?"

Womack also said that Graner was "doing his job, following orders and being praised for it."

The chief prosecutor, Maj. Michael Holley, asked rhetorically, "Did the accused honestly believe that was a lawful order?"

The Bush administration has said the actions were those of a small group and were not part of a policy or condoned by senior officers.

But investigations have shown many prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and at the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba also suffered abusive treatment after the government considered ways to obtain information in the war against terrorism.

Womack said U.S. embarrassment over the Abu Ghraib photographs had prompted the charges against his client. “The embarrassment puts pressure on the government: How do we mollify the world and make them like us again?” he said.

Graner may take the stand
Womack said over the weekend that while he almost never lets his clients take the stand, he may bend that rule for the Graner, of Uniontown, Pa.

“He is a calm, cool professional. He’s very articulate, very bright,” Womack said of the one-time prison guard. “Frankly, I don’t know anyone else in the case who can articulate everything as well as he can, so that would be a strong reason for him to testify.”

In addition to others caught up in the prisoner abuse scandal, Sgt. Joseph Darby, who first reported the alleged abuse, also is scheduled to testify. As many as three Iraqi detainees may testify via videotaped deposition.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6795956/

 

[moghrabi]

If this is not torture, then what is?

 

[moghrabi]

If this is not torture, then what is?

 

[moghrabi]

If this is not torture, then what is?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: U.S.: Did President B

The FBI reported a man's thumbs being forced back to his wrists, Paco. People were anally raped with broom handles. It's systemic, it was reported in Afghanistan from the very start, it was reported in Guantanamo Bay, it was reported in Iraq.

You can continue living in denial and being an apologist for monsters if you so choose, but don't sit there and say nobody has a right to criticise you for it.

As for international laws....They apply the second that arrogant little prick in the White House allows US citizens to act outside of your own borders. Might doesn't make right, what it does is create another generation of terrorists.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: U.S.: Did President B

The FBI reported a man's thumbs being forced back to his wrists, Paco. People were anally raped with broom handles. It's systemic, it was reported in Afghanistan from the very start, it was reported in Guantanamo Bay, it was reported in Iraq.

You can continue living in denial and being an apologist for monsters if you so choose, but don't sit there and say nobody has a right to criticise you for it.

As for international laws....They apply the second that arrogant little prick in the White House allows US citizens to act outside of your own borders. Might doesn't make right, what it does is create another generation of terrorists.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: U.S.: Did President B

The FBI reported a man's thumbs being forced back to his wrists, Paco. People were anally raped with broom handles. It's systemic, it was reported in Afghanistan from the very start, it was reported in Guantanamo Bay, it was reported in Iraq.

You can continue living in denial and being an apologist for monsters if you so choose, but don't sit there and say nobody has a right to criticise you for it.

As for international laws....They apply the second that arrogant little prick in the White House allows US citizens to act outside of your own borders. Might doesn't make right, what it does is create another generation of terrorists.

 

[gerryh]

Re: RE: U.S.: Did President B

The FBI reported a man's thumbs being forced back to his wrists, Paco. People were anally raped with broom handles. It's systemic, it was reported in Afghanistan from the very start, it was reported in Guantanamo Bay, it was reported in Iraq.

You can continue living in denial and being an apologist for monsters if you so choose, but don't sit there and say nobody has a right to criticise you for it.

As for international laws....They apply the second that arrogant little prick in the White House allows US citizens to act outside of your own borders. Might doesn't make right, what it does is create another generation of terrorists.

and that other generation of terrorists is being raised just south of the 49th.