U.S.: Did President Bush Order Torture?

[Reverend Blair]

Those prisoners were hardly tortored.

Yes, actually, they were tortured. According to the standards set by the international community stress positions, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation etc are torture. If you don't believe those things constitute torture, then you should volunteer to have them done to you.

More than that though, there have been people beaten to death in captivity. That, my friend, is torture. No two ways about it.

First of all, these terrorists aren't protected by any law.

No, first of all they aren't all terrorists. Second of all terrorists do have rights under the law.

Not funny, in fact, pathetic.

Yes they are, but you elected them.

This is why you live in *bad word edited*canada. Blame canada!!! Blame canada!!!

For what?

No, you have a history of needing the U.S. for protection.

From who?

At least we got the balls to whats right in the world today.

Then why don't you stand up and do what's right instead of illegally invading countries for their oil?

And personally, I can't wait until the U.S. gets out of the United Nations and away from those criminals.

How many times has Georgie had to go crawling back to the UN for help now? Your country cannot stand on its own in the international community because your leaders have alienated most of the planet. You need the UN more now than ever.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Those prisoners were hardly tortored.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-torture-eng

http://hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/gitmo1004/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A2179-2004May4?language=printer

I suppose to you, being sodomized by glow sticks and broom sticks is just a normal part of the interrogation process?

 

[Paco]

The Bush White House has been pretending that international laws do not apply to the US since the beginning of the Bush administration.

You consistently speak of international crimes committed by Bush or his administration and you throw around international law like it is some ultimate authority. Care to enlighten me on this one? How does international law get its authority? How could Canada or any country indict Bush (as one thread here discusses)?

The FBI just kicked the living crap out of the Bush administration over prisoner treatment and released documents that made it clear that the orders came from the top.

Documents released by the FBI make it pretty clear that did condone the use of torture. That would mean that he broke not just international law, but US domestic law. Your president is criminal, Seward.

You cannot be referring to the “FBI email.” If you are, you certainly have a crystal ball that affords you much more knowledge and clarity than the rest of us are privy to.

 

[Reverend Blair]

You consistently speak of international crimes committed by Bush or his administration and you throw around international law like it is some ultimate authority. Care to enlighten me on this one? How does international law get its authority?

Your country signed on to these laws. You actually helped write them. You scream like banshees when somebody else breaks them, but feel you should be above them. It doesn't work that way, Paco. Either you are a law-abiding nation or you are a rogue state.

You cannot be referring to the “FBI email.”

I am. Those e-mails have been widely reported on in the press and they clearly indicate that the trail goes all the way to the top. You already know that though.

 

[SewardSaint]

RE: U.S.: Did President B

Wow, way to many quotes to deal with here. Let's get a few of these facts straight.

1. The U.S. did not 'invade' Iraq. If you want a reason for the war...This was the (___), fill in the blank with whatever number it is, time that Sadam has failed to comply with UN inspections, and disarm.

2. The U.S. did not go to war for oil!!!!

3. These people do have rights, but these people are not protected by the Geneva Convention in ANY way!!! Get that straight.

4. The so called "press" which R. Blair and others so helpfully refer to is a press that believes, and always prints what R. Blair and others believe. I don't think I have seen or read anything less than 90% lefty from any Canadian press since Bush was elected.

Now, we will both, all of you and myself put emotions behind us and discuss/argue about this like civilized human beings. May I interest you in www.reallifeforums.com We have some pretty heated debate over there too.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hey! SewardSaint

Nice meeting you.

In the past, when the US invaded countries other People of the world were suspicious of American claims and evidence but could not exactly "prove" our suspicions.

Either the U.S. invaded for a secure access to oil and to protect the dollar ..... or, Americans are just a simple bunch of Mother Theresa's?

Americans only think of their own interests and I don't blame Americans for this. But, I get awful tired of hearing American people tell the rest of the world about their worldly conscience.

I don't think that the Soviet Union collapsed because Ronnie Ray-Gun said "tear down this wall". The soviets spent themselves into bankruptcy. (As happened with Spain, Portugal, Italy and Britain) The soviets had finally come to a point where they could not financially support all their spheres of influence in the world.

The day is quickly approaching where the U.S. will need to do the same. Within the past year alone the US government has spent a trillion dollars more than what it brought in.
Americans are in Iraq because they want to protect their standard of living and it is a race against time.

Calm

 

[Reverend Blair]

1. The U.S. did not 'invade' Iraq.

Do you have a television, Seward?

If you want a reason for the war...This was the (___), fill in the blank with whatever number it is, time that Sadam has failed to comply with UN inspections, and disarm.

Hogswallop, Seward. First of all, Bush hates the UN so for him to say he just enforcing UN resolutions is ludicrous. Second of all the arms inspectors were saying that Saddam had disarmed and they knew that because he was complying with their inspections. Third of all nobody can enforce a UN resolution without assent from the UN. Bush didn't have it.

2. The U.S. did not go to war for oil!!!!

Since you offer no proof at all, I will just say that he did, in fact go to war for oil.

3. These people do have rights, but these people are not protected by the Geneva Convention in ANY way!!! Get that straight.

Only the Bush White House adtually believes that, Seward. Whether the Geneva Conventions apply or not though, torture is still illegal under other conventions that the US has signed on to and it is still illegal under US law.

4. The so called "press" which R. Blair and others so helpfully refer to is a press that believes, and always prints what R. Blair and others believe. I don't think I have seen or read anything less than 90% lefty from any Canadian press since Bush was elected.

Wow, I wasn't aware that I controlled the press. Apparently you aren't familiar with the Asper family and their empire, Seward. You don't seem to aware of The Sun newspapers either. Not being a fanatical propaganda machine like the US press does not make the Canadian press left-wing. The abundance of right-wing and corporate influences on a Canadian press that has an ever-narrowing ownership does point to the bias running the other way though.

 

[SewardSaint]

Do you have a television, Seward?

Sadam was also housing ang giving aid to known terrorists. I guess none of that matters to you people though. The war is a just war! If you think Sadam should still be in power, that's your business. If you believe the world is in a better place with Sadam in power, his two sons raping women in his numerous torture rooms, then I can't discuss anything with you.

ogswallop, Seward. First of all, Bush hates the UN so for him to say he just enforcing UN resolutions is ludicrous. Second of all the arms inspectors were saying that Saddam had disarmed and they knew that because he was complying with their inspections. Third of all nobody can enforce a UN resolution without assent from the UN. Bush didn't have it.

Has Bush ever said, or have you ever heard him say "I hate the UN?" I doubt it. Sadam had not disarmed by the way. He was not complying. Okay, let's see. All of you liberals directly blame Bush. This is hilarious. DYI - President Bush went to the Senate and the House, and the people voted almost unanimously to go to war. And another thing, the United Sates does not have to wait for any other country to go to war with them in order to go to war. We don't have to get permission from anyone. We weren't going to wait.

Only the Bush White House adtually believes that, Seward.

False. I believe that. 60 Million Americans believe that. Did you not know that President Bush was reelected? He won in a landsllide!

Whether the Geneva Conventions apply or not though, torture is still illegal under other conventions that the US has signed on to and it is still illegal under US law.

LMAO - These terrorists were eating and sleeping better than they ever have. The soldiers being responsible for this so called 'torture' have already been prosecuted, and will serve jail time. If you believe President Bush ordered it, you either are a freakin' moron, or you hate America a little to much.

Wow, I wasn't aware that I controlled the press. Apparently you aren't familiar with the Asper family and their empire, Seward. You don't seem to aware of The Sun newspapers either. Not being a fanatical propaganda machine like the US press does not make the Canadian press left-wing. The abundance of right-wing and corporate influences on a Canadian press that has an ever-narrowing ownership does point to the bias running the other way though.

No no no, you don't control the press. You get your information from a press which hates America, and believes everything you believe. How do you learn anything listening to that? Expand your reaches a little and learn something.

 

[Reverend Blair]

:roll:

Sadam was also housing ang giving aid to known terrorists.

There has been no evidence WHATSOEVER that Saddam had any connection to 9-11 or to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. If you are going to fall back on that old saw about him giving money to Hamas etc...so does everybody else in the Middle East. Bush didn't invade anybody else though.

I guess none of that matters to you people though. The war is a just war! If you think Sadam should still be in power, that's your business. If you believe the world is in a better place with Sadam in power, his two sons raping women in his numerous torture rooms, then I can't discuss anything with you.

That was all going on when Reagan was backing Saddam up though. It continued for the first part of George Sr.'s administration. Trying to present it as a reason for the invasion after the fact is ridiculous. Many members of the current Bush regime were perfectly happy to look the other way before and it is not the reason Georgie gave for the illegal invasion this time around.

Has Bush ever said, or have you ever heard him say "I hate the UN?"

Oh, grow up. The Bush administration's antipathy toward the UN is well known.

And another thing, the United Sates does not have to wait for any other country to go to war with them in order to go to war. We don't have to get permission from anyone. We weren't going to wait.

Unless you want to be labelled a rogue nation participating in state terrorism, then you have to abide by international laws when you do things outside of your own borders.

False. I believe that. 60 Million Americans believe that. Did you not know that President Bush was reelected? He won in a landsllide!

Only somebody who is completely befuddled by the spin Fox puts on things would consider 51% to be a landslide.

LMAO - These terrorists were eating and sleeping better than they ever have.

Come over to my house. I'll give you a big, juicy steak; then jam a broomstick up your ass while we see if Mrs. Rev can keep the dogs from gnawing on you. After that we'll keep you awake for three or four days and make you stand for hours with your arms held straight out.

If you believe President Bush ordered it, you either are a freakin' moron, or you hate America a little to much.

Well, I'm not moron and I don't hate the USA, so it's time for you to find a different lie to tell.

You get your information from a press which hates America, and believes everything you believe. How do you learn anything listening to that? Expand your reaches a little and learn something.

You obviously haven't got a clue about the press in Canada or the rest of the world, little buddy. It's you who needs to do some learning.

 

[SewardSaint]

There has been no evidence WHATSOEVER that Saddam had any connection to 9-11 or to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. If you are going to fall back on that old saw about him giving money to Hamas etc...so does everybody else in the Middle East. Bush didn't invade anybody else though.

There has been. Connections are numerous. Sadam wasn't sitting next to Bin Laden during the planning phase, but Al Queda did receive money from Sadam. Sadam was also housing other known terrorists. I will post the evidence later.

That was all going on when Reagan was backing Saddam up though. It continued for the first part of George Sr.'s administration. Trying to present it as a reason for the invasion after the fact is ridiculous. Many members of the current Bush regime were perfectly happy to look the other way before and it is not the reason Georgie gave for the illegal invasion this time around.

AGAIN, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL. But, for your sake, we'll say it is. What the FUCK are you, your nation, or the UN gonna *censored...needs his mouth washed out with Palmolive* do about it?

Oh, grow up. The Bush administration's antipathy toward the UN is well known.

Evidence?

Unless you want to be labelled a rogue nation participating in state terrorism, then you have to abide by international laws when you do things outside of your own borders.

It makes a difference when that "rogue" nation has been attacked, and the UN has sent troops to aid in the war.

Only somebody who is completely befuddled by the spin Fox puts on things would consider 51% to be a landslide.

Bush got more votes than any other President in history. Bush got more votes by millions than Gore received in 2000. The election wasn't close at all. The only people sweating on election night were the Democrats.

Come over to my house. I'll give you a big, juicy steak; then jam a broomstick up your ass while we see if Mrs. Rev can keep the dogs from gnawing on you. After that we'll keep you awake for three or four days and make you stand for hours with your arms held straight out.

No thanks. I don't kill innocent people. I don't take the heads off of soldiers or civilians. I don't committ acts of terror.

Well, I'm not moron and I don't hate the USA, so it's time for you to find a different lie to tell.

It's no lie. Leberalism is based on the belief that a person can do what ever they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. Well, you're a liberal, we aren't *censored...he has filthier mouth than I do* with you, don't *censored...and apparently quite a limited vocabulary* with us.

You obviously haven't got a clue about the press in Canada or the rest of the world, little buddy. It's you who needs to do some learning.

HA HA HA The majority of Europe is democratic. The majority of the press is democratic. The majority of the press in the U.S. is liberal. For example, look at Dan Rather. He did his "journalistic responsibility" so well, he couldn't wait to run those false documents on the air.


I'm done talking about this. My parting quote..."when the *censored...gratutious use of the "Kaka" word* hits the fan, remember who's going to come out on top. I think it would be a good idea to be one the right side."

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Bush got more votes than any other President in history.

Maybe the growing US population is an explanation for that one? There are some 293 million Americans, of whome some 75% are above the age of 18. That is some 220 million people. Lets say we will put the amount of elligible voters at 200 million (I do not know whether the 220 million - or 293 million, source: CIA - also include people who are not allowed to vote, like illegals). 60 million people voting for Bush means thus that 30% of all people who could vote, voted for Bush.

The majority of Europe is democratic.

I don't understand. Do you mean with that they are democracies (quite right), or they are Democrats (we don't have Democrats nor Republicans here, we have - from the left to the right - Communists, Greens, Socialists, Liberal Lefties, Christian parties in the centre, Liberal Rights, the Christian Right, the average Right-winged parties and extreme-Right - for the Netherlands that is. Oh I do love our diversity! But I'm getting seriously off topic now.)?

 

[SewardSaint]

RE: U.S.: Did President B

I just heard on the news that the governor of Iraq has been assassinated. I don't think you understand what is going to actually happen if the US were to just 'leave this alone.' The terrorists won't stop. They won't go get a 9 - 5 job. This is what they do. These terrorists want to kill Americans and ruin democracy around the world. Do you honestly believe that if Bush pulled out of Iraq, peace will insue?

And Europe is full of liberals Rick.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

SewardSaint, although Europe does have it's liberals (I would rather call them socialists, liberals is the name we Dutchmen give to our right wingers), it also has its share of right wing parties and its right wing people. Like the Dutch government. But I guess we're all Cummies eh? :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

Now that I've cleaned up the language to the levels acceptable on Fox...

There has been. Connections are numerous. Sadam wasn't sitting next to Bin Laden during the planning phase, but Al Queda did receive money from Sadam.

No they didn't, at least by any standard that wouldn't also point to al Qaeda recieving money and support from the Bush administration.

AGAIN, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL. But, for your sake, we'll say it is. What the *censored* are you, your nation, or the UN gonna *censored...needs his mouth washed out with Palmolive* do about it?

Well, it actually is illegal. When somebody commits an act that breaks the law, we say that act is illegal.

Evidence?

His actions since he's come to power. AIDS policy, Iraq, the recent attempts to force Kofi Annan to resign....Take your pick, bud.

It makes a difference when that "rogue" nation has been attacked, and the UN has sent troops to aid in the war.

Iraq never attacked you and the UN hasn't sent any troops to Iraq as a result. In fact Kofi Annan, the Director General of the UN that recently got an extremely rare 5 minute standing ovation in the General Assembly, said that the US invasion of Iraq was illegal.

Bush got more votes than any other President in history. Bush got more votes by millions than Gore received in 2000. The election wasn't close at all. The only people sweating on election night were the Democrats.

He got 51%. He won by two points out of a hundred. A landslide would be 60% or so. 55% could be argued to be decisive. He didn't get it. Half of your nation, and most of the world, hates your president.

No thanks. I don't kill innocent people. I don't take the heads off of soldiers or civilians. I don't committ acts of terror.

You vehemently support a regime that does all of those things.

It's no lie. Leberalism is based on the belief that a person can do what ever they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. Well, you're a liberal, we aren't *censored...he has filthier mouth than I do* with you, don't *censored...and apparently quite a limited vocabulary* with us.

Liberalism is based on individual freedoms and the belief that we should help the less fortunate. The second you take action that affects people outside of your own borders you are open to criticism. To put it another way and prove that I can curse just as well as you...Quit *******with the *******world and acting like a ******* biker on a speed and violence binge and we'll quit treating you like a ******** gangster.

HA HA HA The majority of Europe is democratic. The majority of the press is democratic.

Most of us prefer democracy and democratic principles to war-mongering. If you have a problem with that it speaks more to your own shortcomings than ours.

I'm done talking about this. My parting quote..."when the *censored...gratutious use of the "Kaka" word* hits the fan, remember who's going to come out on top. I think it would be a good idea to be one the right side."

I think it's a good idea to be on the right side too....that is the side that's right instead of the side willing to kill children so they can run their SUVs cheaply.

 

[no1important]

Excellent reply Reverend Blair :standing ovation:

 

[SewardSaint]

RE: U.S.: Did President B

I hear many asking why the president received more votes than any president ever has, and how he could receive a greater percentage of the vote than the "great" Bill Clinton ever did. I cannot speak for all those who voted for him but I can tell you why I voted for him. I know that each of the reasons I will cite are controversial, and many have opposing views, nevertheless, I believe I am an average representative of what went through the minds of those who voted republican.

First and foremost, I believe George W Bush to be an honest and straight forward individual. He tells you what he believes and what he is going to do, then he strives to achieve those aims. What a breath of fresh air. After "I didn't inhale," "read my lips, no new taxes," "I didn't have sexual relations with that woman," "I am not a crook," and many others, "you are either with us or with the terrorists" was a breath of fresh air that buoyed the spirit and restored hope. At last America had found a leader that didn't simply do what was politically expedient. From the world court to the Gay marriage constitutional amendment, from tax cuts to the Patriot Act, and from Kyoto to Iraq this president never wavered and did what he could to defend this nation from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

Reason number two for my Bush vote was that there has been no attack on American soil since 9-11. For at least a year after the attack we waited for another shoe to drop. It didn't. A war on terror was declared and two successful fronts of that war were pursued. Contrary to some feelings, this was not a war on Al Queda, or a war on the Taliban, but a war on terror. While the links between Sadam and Al Queda were weak at best, Sadam had strong links to Hezbollah and Hamas and refused to abide by his obligations under the cease fire agreement of the first gulf war. There were many other excellent reasons to remove him from power but these alone would have been sufficient for me.

My third reason for voting for the President included social issues. Indeed, I am a social conservative and I am overjoyed that this president will name the next Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. My choice would be Roy Moore from Alabama but I can settle for Clarence Thomas. For years we have seen a widening of the separation of church and state. I hope this trend is reversed.

Finally, I believe this president did an outstanding job with economic issues. After inheriting a Clinton/Gore recession, and being hit with 9-11 and corporate scandals his administration moved quickly to stop the bleeding and make necessary adjustments. I am an engineer who lost his job during the early part of the administration, but I have found another job and I just purchased a new home. My life is better today than it was four years ago and according to the recent jobs report that came out there are half a million people that may be in the same situation now that they have reentered the work force.

This is why I voted for George Bush. Also, just because the world hates my President, doesn't make the world correct.

 

[Reverend Blair]

You know that nobody will laugh at you if you only eat a half button of peyote right, Seward?

First and foremost, I believe George W Bush to be an honest and straight forward individual.

He lied to you and the entire world about Weapons of Mass Destruction. Now I realize that telling lies about why you're murdering babies isn't nearly as important as denying that you let a fat chick suck on your dick since fat chicks can't power an SUV, but I'm pretty sure that killing children is wrong. It might even be unChristian, at least outside of the whole circumcision story.

After "I didn't inhale," "read my lips, no new taxes," "I didn't have sexual relations with that woman," "I am not a crook," and many others, "you are either with us or with the terrorists" was a breath of fresh air that buoyed the spirit and restored hope.

It was a call to mindless violence that angered the entire planet. now everybody but Maggie Thatcher's Bastard Son is against you, and even he is having second thoughts.

Reason number two for my Bush vote was that there has been no attack on American soil since 9-11.

Hasn't been one on my house either, although there are a couple of men with a black Ford and funny haircuts who seem to live in their car in front of my house.

My third reason for voting for the President included social issues. Indeed, I am a social conservative and I am overjoyed that this president will name the next Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. My choice would be Roy Moore from Alabama but I can settle for Clarence Thomas. For years we have seen a widening of the separation of church and state. I hope this trend is reversed

Ah, the Christian Taliban argument. Read what you founding fathers said...I'm pretty sure they were real Americans. You sure as hell aren't.

Finally, I believe this president did an outstanding job with economic issues.

Because spending like speed freak on a binge is responsible. Your grandkids can pay the debt.

 

[no1important]

By the time "W"'s termis over America won't have much of an economy left.

Conservatism is basically a dying breed in most parts now.

Bush is the only leader I have heard of to threaten constitutional amendments to deny American Citizens rights.

Since "W" is a very religious man and talks to God or so he says, doesn't he realize he will go to "hell" for what he is doing? Bush is a "great evil" and I dont think he will destroy the world but it would not suprise me. He is really just a Yale flunkie, he is not to smart.

 

[moghrabi]

Did he go to Yale or was it his dad arranged his papers the same way he did for his military service?

He is a Yale, military, and presidency flunkie.

 

[Gabre34]

U.S.: Did President Bush Order Torture?...

Hmm, let's see.

GWB, who was governor of Texas, a state well known world-wide for death sentence and Death Row..

A bunch of "terrorist" locked up in Guantanamo Bay or in Abu Ghraib...

Well I don't think "He" ordered it, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

But put yourself in the shoes of a soldier over there. He's been there for almost a year, might stay longer. The US Army is short on personel. He knows he could die anytime, in his homebase, in his convoy, anywhere.

He's bored, he's mentally tired, but thinks of the Army Credo to motivate himself, but obviously realizes its only illusions.
Meanwhile, your mind is starting to.. stray-off.. You don't feel like doing this anymore. Constant images of comrades dying haunts your dreams. All you want is to go home.

Oh, prisoners. God I sure am bored... Maybe me and a couple of buddies could.... Figure it out.