Time to Kill OAS??

[JLM]

Should the desolate 62 year old get some money to help them and if so why should they be treated differently than the 65 year old?

Lots of people aged 62 get gov't help, as for being treated differently than the 65 year old................good reason..............different ages. How old are you? You come across as a very naive person.............life is not perfect, nor is it always fair, but most of us have the resources within ourselves to make up for the difference. You come across as a huge cry baby. Be thankful for you have, especially if you can get by without handouts.

 

[tibear]

I agree 100% as seniors are now approaching 20% of the population, where it used to be 4 or 5%, not to mention that seniors on average are in better health today.
But that is a far cry from bloody minded ideas of cutting them off the OAP.

At least we're now getting to the point where there is some agreement that changes MUST be made. BTW, the program is OAS not OAP....:lol:

Your right that seniors are healthier and I know many seniors that work part time because they enjoy it and are still able to do it. However how is that different than anyone else. There are some seniors and non-seniors that can work and some seniors and non-seniors that can't work why should age make a difference in how the government treats them.

In fact, the seniors have had 30, 40, 50 years or more to save money so that they wouldn't have to have government handouts so they should be in a better financial situation than the person just starting out in life.

Yes, I know there are many poor seniors through no fault of their own. We need to help them. period.

You are talking about apples and oranges here, tibear. Social Assistance programs are run by the provinces. OAS is a federal program. The provinces will never cede control of their SA programs to the Feds - never.

How about taking the OAS funds and putting it into the GIS program which is also a federal program and giving the money to seniors that really need the money? Reduce the number of programs from 2 to 1 and ensure that the people that truly need the money get the money?

Lots of people aged 62 get gov't help, as for being treated differently than the 65 year old................good reason..............different ages. How old are you? You come across as a very naive person.............life is not perfect, nor is it always fair, but most of us have the resources within ourselves to make up for the difference. You come across as a huge cry baby. Be thankful for you have, especially if you can get by without handouts.

You and others claim that the situations are different because of their ages....why should age make a difference? Many also state that life isn't fair and you're right it isn't, however, I would like to think that government programs should be fair. We have control over the program and how it is implemented, accidents, birth defects, genetics, etc are things we have no control over, but programs aren't things which that should be included in the "unfair" category.

BTW, I'm extremely thankful for what I have and perhaps a bit too idealistic and believe that in overall fairness. Perhaps I do think about the needs of others more than myself, like when I think about the many daily struggles of the poor and the fact that the government gives money to people who don't need it. It frustrates me because there are so many with nothing, yet there are some like yourself who enjoys receiving this free money without any type of reasonable means test.

After this debate, I now believe that we should eliminate the OAS and put all of the money into the GIS system for the truly needy seniors. If as you contend, OAS is to ensure seniors don't live in poverty you wouldn't have a problem with that proposal would you?

Those are couples

I've worked with tons of seniors in a financial capacity. Rarely saw an individual making 50k.

Then why have there been many articles written that the inheritences that are going to occur over then next 30 years or so are going to be the richest in history? People who purchased or built their homes for $15K some 50 or 60 years ago are now selling them for 30 or 100 times those original amounts. Their investments are the highest that seniors have ever had because the government and investment companies have done a good job of telling people to save for retirement.

Look how many seniors go on extended winter vacations every year and own golf memberships. Surely those individuals don't "need" the extra $6K to play with.

Yes, there are many who have very little, but there are also many who have a great deal.

Let's give the "seniors poverty money" it to the canadians that really need it.

 

[JLM]

At least we're now getting to the point where there is some agreement that changes MUST be made. BTW, the program is OAS not OAP....:lol:

How arrogant can one get??????????? We discussed changes to the OAP months ago and I fully agreed the age of eligibility must be raised or the amount lowered for it to work. O.A.P. is just as acceptable....................stands for "Old age pension"! Perhaps you missed the post advocating an I.Q. of at least 4 to engage in these discussions!

 

[taxslave]

Does anyone know a senior that makes more than 50k income a year? It's far from the norm. More like very rare.

Quite a few around here. But then this is a retirement mecca.
Lots with government pensions which pay quite well.

 

[JLM]

Quite a few around here. But then this is a retirement mecca.
Lots with government pensions which pay quite well.

$50 Grand isn't much these days. company pensions of $30 Grand are quite common add C.P.P. about $7000, OAP about $6000, a couple of R.R.S.P.S, a little casual (under the table) earnings and BINGO.

 

[L Gilbert]

Time to kill OAS? I'll get right on it.. oh that's KAOS.

------------------------------------------

Seriously, this is the only way to save Social Security in my opinion, raising the age limit.. people are living longer and drawing on the social security, longer.. actually as the average lifespan increased so should have the age at which you can start getting social security. Otherwise we will be bankrupt..

Raising the age limit is just delaying the inevitable. As you say, people are living much longer than in the past. The boomers will still be a massive wave to hit old age in the end.The key to reducing debt and deficits is not to spend more than you rake in. And there are plenty of ways to trim gov't that won't hurt seniors, kids, and the rest of the general population. Minority groups can look to the provinces, municipalities for aid if they need it within the guidelines of existing agreements.

Another X . Boomer, when you use the image icon to post pics, I'll bet you are just tacking on the pic URL to the space in the box. It already has a "http:" in the box so when you add another "http:" to it, it will not post the pic. Just need one "http:" in the box.

Those are couples

I've worked with tons of seniors in a financial capacity. Rarely saw an individual making 50k.

Yes, Kreskin, but it doesn't take much thought to realize that 1 usually doesn't make as much as 2.

My Mum never collected OAS as she lived on money from investments made earlier in her life.

Same with my parents. And my wifey's parents are quite comfortable and will have no need for the approximate

$500 a month from OAS either.

How about taking the OAS funds and putting it into the GIS program which is also a federal program and giving the money to seniors that really need the money? Reduce the number of programs from 2 to 1 and ensure that the people that truly need the money get the money?

"

For persons aged 65 or older who wish to apply for their Old Age Security Pension. The Old Age Security pension is a benefit payable to most Canadians age 65 and over who meet the Canadian residence requirements."

"The Guaranteed Income Supplement provides additional money, on top of the Old Age Security pension, to low-income seniors living in Canada. To be eligible for the GISbenefit, you must be receiving the Old Age Security pension and meet the income requirements explained below." - from the gov't website.​

So basically what you are saying is that we should eliminate the OAS and roll it into the GIS. It wouldn't be a bad idea if it wouldn't cost hundreds of thousands to cut through the bureaucracy, have studies, and whatever else that bureaucrats would need to do that. And usually when the gov't starts making major changes in programs, there is a number of years when the new program is an example of mass confusion. Look what happens when the fed does something with income taxes, for example. In the meantime, there are other things that could be chopped and cut back that are a bit more important than OAS anyway and would not have a great impact upon a large number of Canadians, IMO. ​

You and others claim that the situations are different because of their ages....why should age make a difference? Many also state that life isn't fair and you're right it isn't, however, I would like to think that government programs should be fair. We have control over the program and how it is implemented, accidents, birth defects, genetics, etc are things we have no control over, but programs aren't things which that should be included in the "unfair" category.

So for seniors, most of whom have spent a lifetime working toward retirement, you want to treat them the same as the lazy shyte who lost his job and needs a handout till he gets a new job? Good luck with that

BTW, I'm extremely thankful for what I have and perhaps a bit too idealistic and believe that in overall fairness. Perhaps I do think about the needs of others more than myself, like when I think about the many daily struggles of the poor and the fact that the government gives money to people who don't need it. It frustrates me because there are so many with nothing, yet there are some like yourself who enjoys receiving this free money without any type of reasonable means test.

Yep, treating seniors like welfare recipients is idealistic and fair overall.

After this debate, I now believe that we should eliminate the OAS and put all of the money into the GIS system for the truly needy seniors. If as you contend, OAS is to ensure seniors don't live in poverty you wouldn't have a problem with that proposal would you?

OAS is guaranteed period. GIS is guranteed as long as you can't make it on OAS and whatever CPP you get. When you can survive on OAS and CPP, GIS quits.

Then why have there been many articles written that the inheritences that are going to occur over then next 30 years or so are going to be the richest in history? People who purchased or built their homes for $15K some 50 or 60 years ago are now selling them for 30 or 100 times those original amounts. Their investments are the highest that seniors have ever had because the government and investment companies have done a good job of telling people to save for retirement.

We bought this place (20 hectares) for $75K in 1989. If we wanted to move, we could get about a half million for it, but a smaller place would suck up that half million. We might as well stay here till we croak. The only other viable alternative is to sell, pack up and move to a country where we can enjoy the fruits of our work without a large cost of living.
That issue is relative.

Look how many seniors go on extended winter vacations every year and own golf memberships. Surely those individuals don't "need" the extra $6K to play with.

Yes, there are many who have very little, but there are also many who have a great deal.

Let's give the "seniors poverty money" it to the canadians that really need it.

Yeah, I've already addressed the issue of treating seniors like welfare recipients. Good luck getting votes with ideas like that.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

You should, tibear, start thinking a little deeper than the libertarian talking points a la Steven Harper. Means testing is what he proposes for Healthcare and many other vital social programmes.

To foist that indignity on millions who have spent their lives worling, paying taxes and contributing to the overall prosperity of this country would be something akin to the last straw. Would you like a "million man" march of pemsioners on Ottawa? That is what your selfish ideas would accomplish.

There should not be any question about this whatsoever. CPP, OAS, and GIS should all be rolled into one Pension payable to all. Even to those who did not work long enough to qualify as the great majority of those still contributed in different ways. Your belief that these should be Social Assistance Programmes is extremely offensive to every Senior in the country.

Most of the technical arguments have been made so I will not dwell on them. Other than to say that, since all Pension income is taxable, there would be no "overpayment" to wealthy seniors.

Further, I, personally, take umbrage to your use of LICO to determine poverty among Seniors. Already more than one million seniors live below that measure and as many more are little above it. That is poverty and is no reward for lifelong contributors the nation.

One point that does not seem to be coming out is that there is not a problem with sustainability of these entitlements (for that is what they are). The only problem in that respect is the ideologically created one of taking tax reenue and giving it back to corporate friends. An appropriate level of taxation; a level that existed just a decade or so ago would end any talk of the country not being able to afford an adequate pension regime.

And every study of the problem other than by the request of this government, confirms that.

 

[L Gilbert]

Most of the technical arguments have been made so I will not dwell on them. Other than to say that, since all Pension income is taxable, there would be no "overpayment" to wealthy seniors.

Good point. There's still the fact that seniors continue paying taxes for property, income, medical issues, pharmaceuticals, etc.

 

[Kreskin]

Quite a few around here. But then this is a retirement mecca.
Lots with government pensions which pay quite well.

Most pensions aren't close to 50. Even all gov combined.

 

[JLM]

Most pensions aren't close to 50. Even all gov combined.

Don't forget, many people have inherited money generating income through investments. :smile:

 

[tibear]

How arrogant can one get??????????? We discussed changes to the OAP months ago and I fully agreed the age of eligibility must be raised or the amount lowered for it to work. O.A.P. is just as acceptable....................stands for "Old age pension"! Perhaps you missed the post advocating an I.Q. of at least 4 to engage in these discussions!

I didn't know that participating in a debate within this forum had a prerequisite of reading ALL of the previous forums.....

BTW, your personal attacks are starting to get boring. Swearing and personal attacks have been proven to be signs off lower intelligence.

So basically what you are saying is that we should eliminate the OAS and roll it into the GIS. It wouldn't be a bad idea if it wouldn't cost hundreds of thousands to cut through the bureaucracy, have studies, and whatever else that bureaucrats would need to do that. And usually when the gov't starts making major changes in programs, there is a number of years when the new program is an example of mass confusion. Look what happens when the fed does something with income taxes, for example. In the meantime, there are other things that could be chopped and cut back that are a bit more important than OAS anyway and would not have a great impact upon a large number of Canadians, IMO. ​

So for seniors, most of whom have spent a lifetime working toward retirement, you want to treat them the same as the lazy shyte who lost his job and needs a handout till he gets a new job? Good luck with that

Yep, treating seniors like welfare recipients is idealistic and fair overall.

OAS is guaranteed period. GIS is guranteed as long as you can't make it on OAS and whatever CPP you get. When you can survive on OAS and CPP, GIS quits.



We bought this place (20 hectares) for $75K in 1989. If we wanted to move, we could get about a half million for it, but a smaller place would suck up that half million. We might as well stay here till we croak. The only other viable alternative is to sell, pack up and move to a country where we can enjoy the fruits of our work without a large cost of living.
That issue is relative.

Imagine if original builders of our country had the same attitude you had......"Man, can you imagine the headache and costs associated with creating a new country! Forget it, let's enjoy the life we have even if we don't think it is fair." What a loser attitude!

If something needs changing then change it.

I've never said anything about CPP, that is something workers have worked hard to pay for and have every right to collect. According to the majority of the OAS supporters here, OAS and GIS are social assistance programs for seniors. So why have two of them?

If as many here claim, OAS and GIS are social assistance programs, let's truly make it a assistance program and help only those that need it.

I've noticed that none of my opponents on this topic have addressed the millions of canadian seniors that go south for months each winter or go golfing everyday in the summertime in any of their debating points........coincidence.....I think not.

Many seniors today choose to work long after the have officially retired. Age is NOT a barrier to working. Try telling all seniors to retire and you'll have a rebellion, many of our seniors are active and able to take care of themselves. However, like other canadians some do need help to live a reasonable livestyle and wee need to help them.

Most of the technical arguments have been made so I will not dwell on them. Other than to say that, since all Pension income is taxable, there would be no "overpayment" to wealthy seniors.

Then how about giving every canadian the $6K instead of just the seniors?

 

[JLM]

BTW, your personal attacks are starting to get boring. Swearing and personal attacks have been proven to be signs off lower intelligence.

Which post did I swear in (with the possible exception of a quote)? :smile:

Then how about giving every canadian the $6K instead of just the seniors?

What for?

 

[tibear]

Which post did I swear in (with the possible exception of a quote)? :smile:



What for?

You haven't sworn but others have and you've certainly done your share of belittling.

If you think everything comes out in the wash with taxes and OAS then how about giving every canadian $6K, after all it all comes out in the wash doesn't it??

I find it interesting that some here say that life isn't fair and so what if the OAS isn't fair to all canadians. Yet these same people don't want OAS taken away from the seniors because they claim it isn't fair to the seniors who have paid taxes there whole lives......where is there "life isn't fair attitude now?"

People here claim that seniors have paid taxes their entire lives and should now get some back, I didn't know that taxes collected today were meant to be used 50 years from now? Does that mean that we are being way overtaxed today (I think we can all agree this is true) and the government is saving all kinds of money to be used at sometime in the future? Let's face facts, the tax base is getting smaller and smaller yet the senior population is growing exponentially. It has been proven that during the 60's, 70's and 80's the governments of the day weren't collecting enough CPP and taxes to help pay for the seniors that were coming down the stream (GIS and healthcare) and now those same seniors want to put the burden on their grandchilden and great grandchildren to pay for programs that those seniors should have paid for before they retired. These young people have a hard enough time meeting ends meet with today economy, they don't need the government to take additional taxes from them to give to people that don't need the money.

 

[gerryh]

I didn't know that participating in a debate within this forum had a prerequisite of reading ALL of the previous forums.....

Most people with half a brain do a quick search to ensure that their topic isn't just duplicating another discussion.

BTW, your personal attacks are starting to get boring. Swearing and personal attacks have been proven to be signs off lower intelligence.

and your continued inability to see past your own self importance is past boring. As for the lower intelligence remark. Well asshole, how about you list your fu cking acomplishments and work experience and I'll list my fu cking accomplishments and work experience over the last 40 years. Let's compare and see who is "smarter", eh numbnuts? I swear quite a bit. Lower intelligence... what a fu cking laugh.

I've noticed that none of my opponents on this topic have addressed the millions of canadian seniors that go south for months each winter or go golfing everyday in the summertime in any of their debating points........coincidence.....I think not.

So what? Now you're jealous? They fu cking deserve it. They worked their entire lives so that YOU could have what you have. One more example of the "me" attitude of the "junior" generations.

Yes, I know, it's our own fault( the baby boomers) for raising and spoiling the little shyts so much. We have created the self abosrbed, arrogant and selfish attitudes that make OP's like this possible.

Then how about giving every canadian the $6K instead of just the seniors?

Because the seniors have worked for it, and the rest haven't....yet.

 

[JLM]

There you go tibear, I think Gerry just explained it quite succinctly. :smile:

 

[Goober]

You haven't sworn but others have and you've certainly done your share of belittling.

If you think everything comes out in the wash with taxes and OAS then how about giving every canadian $6K, after all it all comes out in the wash doesn't it??

I find it interesting that some here say that life isn't fair and so what if the OAS isn't fair to all canadians. Yet these same people don't want OAS taken away from the seniors because they claim it isn't fair to the seniors who have paid taxes there whole lives......where is there "life isn't fair attitude now?"

People here claim that seniors have paid taxes their entire lives and should now get some back, I didn't know that taxes collected today were meant to be used 50 years from now? Does that mean that we are being way overtaxed today (I think we can all agree this is true) and the government is saving all kinds of money to be used at sometime in the future? Let's face facts, the tax base is getting smaller and smaller yet the senior population is growing exponentially. It has been proven that during the 60's, 70's and 80's the governments of the day weren't collecting enough CPP and taxes to help pay for the seniors that were coming down the stream (GIS and healthcare) and now those same seniors want to put the burden on their grandchilden and great grandchildren to pay for programs that those seniors should have paid for before they retired. These young people have a hard enough time meeting ends meet with today economy, they don't need the government to take additional taxes from them to give to people that don't need the money.

Perhaps you have forgotten Politics Basics- See how many disagree with your point- then consider trying to sell your point to Canadians - Recall the implementation of the GST

 

[Cabbagesandking]

Are you deaf to other positions, tibear? You do not give it to others because it is nit a social programme and should not become a social programme.

It is an income entitlement: deferred during work life as any pension is.

You are earning some of the epithets that are being applied to you. You are not forced to agree with others but stop pushing the social programme for the needy concept. That is one of the things that is bringing us to the death of modern capitalism.

A society survives only for so long as it treats all members of society fairly and recognises the full membership of all. Democracy is about equality' not throwing bones to an underclass. In this case an undeclass that is created from a class that has buit the society.

 

[tibear]

Most people with half a brain do a quick search to ensure that their topic isn't just duplicating another discussion.



and your continued inability to see past your own self importance is past boring. As for the lower intelligence remark. Well asshole, how about you list your fu cking acomplishments and work experience and I'll list my fu cking accomplishments and work experience over the last 40 years. Let's compare and see who is "smarter", eh numbnuts? I swear quite a bit. Lower intelligence... what a fu cking laugh.



So what? Now you're jealous? They fu cking deserve it. They worked their entire lives so that YOU could have what you have. One more example of the "me" attitude of the "junior" generations.

Yes, I know, it's our own fault( the baby boomers) for raising and spoiling the little shyts so much. We have created the self abosrbed, arrogant and selfish attitudes that make OP's like this possible.





Because the seniors have worked for it, and the rest haven't....yet.

There is no discussing with an individual like yourself. Once you begin to lose an arguement you go into personal attack mode and completely forget about discussing the points.

Oh, btw I assume you check all of the previous topics before starting a new discussion point right? I thought so...Most people with half a brain do a quick search to ensure that their topic isn't just duplicating another discussion.

Are you deaf to other positions, tibear? You do not give it to others because it is nit a social programme and should not become a social programme.

It is an income entitlement: deferred during work life as any pension is.

You are earning some of the epithets that are being applied to you. You are not forced to agree with others but stop pushing the social programme for the needy concept. That is one of the things that is bringing us to the death of modern capitalism.

A society survives only for so long as it treats all members of society fairly and recognises the full membership of all. Democracy is about equality' not throwing bones to an underclass. In this case an undeclass that is created from a class that has buit the society.

Cabbage, it is not I that said that OAS is a social program it is the proponents of the program that have made the claim. I simply asked why seniors were entitled to "free" money when no other segment of the population is.

My position is strictly about fairness but the prononents of OAS and my attackers don't want to hear about fairness.

 

[Goober]

There is no discussing with an individual like yourself. Once you begin to lose an arguement you go into personal attack mode and completely forget about discussing the points.

Oh, btw I assume you check all of the previous topics before starting a new discussion point right? I thought so...Most people with half a brain do a quick search to ensure that their topic isn't just duplicating another discussion.



Cabbage, it is not I that said that OAS is a social program it is the proponents of the program that have made the claim. I simply asked why seniors were entitled to "free" money when no other segment of the population is.

My position is strictly about fairness but the prononents of OAS and my attackers don't want to hear about fairness.

Please define Free Money?

 

[Kreskin]

Don't forget, many people have inherited money generating income through investments. :smile:

A small percentage. Most take as a return of capital which is not income.