Time to Kill OAS??

[tibear]

Whatever, and I mean whatever, we can do to make our seniors declining years more comfortable, we do it. Those seniors that you want to screw worked their whole lives to make Canada what it is today. Without their contribution you wouldn't have a pot to piss in. So take your selfish and ungrateful rant and stuff it where the sun don't shine.

When did I ever say we ignore our desolate seniors. I'm simply saying that instead of giving ALL seniors money that they don't really need, give it only to those that do. Treat them like the rest of the canadians that are under 65 and need government assistance.

You're telling me the 50 year old and 60 year old didn't work their whole life to make Canada better?

Let's stop the personal attacks and have a rational discussion about what is best for the country and its citizens not just one section of the country.

You two guys have an axe to grind? Let's just say for sake of argument, everyone in the country gets cut off OAS right now. What do you think would be done with the money? Right now most of it is going toward food, shelter, clothing, health needs. Is there a better destination for it?

The senior that makes $100K and collect the OAS could also claim his OAS goes to food, shelter, clothing and health needs........and you still support the idea of giving someone that make over $100K a government subsidy?

Stop thinking about YOUR situation and how much YOU like the money and start thinking about fairness. What's fair for ALL canadians. We ALL pay taxes so why should some segment get free money while the rest of the population doesn't?

If someone needs government assistance by all means ensure they get it but make sure that everyone plays by the same rules.

Obviously you've never had to live hand to mouth.


$500 can mean the difference between living and starving....moron.

EXACTLY, give the money to those who need it not blindly to every senior that DOESN'T need it. Two seniors that make $200K together still qualify for OAS.......and that's fair to the poor family of 4 making $50K a year?

What happens to those folk who have a net income of $69562 or less - many times MUCH less? Welfare, as you suggest, is a provincial expense - closer to coming from YOUR pocket.

They need government assistance so give it to them but don't give OAS to everyone just to make sure you cover the poor.

It's like the government handing out $100 bills on the corner to everyone that passes trying to ensure that the poor get some money to live. Doesn't make sense to me. Only give out money to those that really NEED it not to those that think they DESERVE it.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

When did I ever say we ignore our desolate seniors. I'm simply saying that instead of giving ALL seniors money that they don't really need, give it only to those that do. Treat them like the rest of the canadians that are under 65 and need government assistance.

You're telling me the 50 year old and 60 year old didn't work their whole life to make Canada better?

Let's stop the personal attacks and have a rational discussion about what is best for the country and its citizens not just one section of the country.



The senior that makes $100K and collect the OAS could also claim his OAS goes to food, shelter, clothing and health needs........and you still support the idea of giving someone that make over $100K a government subsidy?

Stop thinking about YOUR situation and how much YOU like the money and start thinking about fairness. What's fair for ALL canadians. We ALL pay taxes so why should some segment get free money while the rest of the population doesn't?

If someone needs government assistance by all means ensure they get it but make sure that everyone plays by the same rules.



EXACTLY, give the money to those who need it not blindly to every senior that DOESN'T need it. Two seniors that make $200K together still qualify for OAS.......and that's fair to the poor family of 4 making $50K a year?



They need government assistance so give it to them but don't give OAS to everyone just to make sure you cover the poor.

It's like the government handing out $100 bills on the corner to everyone that passes trying to ensure that the poor get some money to live. Doesn't make sense to me. Only give out money to those that really NEED it not to those that think they DESERVE it.

The clawbacks are the determinant of need. Argue their level if you want to look at this seriously. The 'arguments' that are being made can be reduced to s desire to return to the Poor Laws and Parish (Provincial) welfare.

 

[tibear]

I feel sorry for those people.

TenPenny, still waiting to see how OAS treats the 30 year old and 70 year old that make $20K a year similarly? If OAS is about need and not about age then they should be treated similarly shouldn't they?

 

[TenPenny]

Doesn't make sense to me.

Ah, the joys of people who have been so poorly educated that they don't understand our country.

This thread is really a condemnation of our education system, people like tibear have somehow managed to get to where they are today without any grasp of how we got here as a society.

 

[JLM]

The senior that makes $100K and collect the OAS could also claim his OAS goes to food, shelter, clothing and health needs........and you still support the idea of giving someone that make over $100K a government subsidy?

Stop thinking about YOUR situation and how much YOU like the money and start thinking about fairness.

I'm going to try again as many intelligent posters have already tried to point out.
1. It's fair, everybody gets it.
2. It's taxable as income, so it's not totally a free ride for the rich.
3. It's really no one's business what the recipients spend it on, but I'll bet some seniors donate it to charity.
4. It's cheaper to pay it to everyone than having to provide another few levels of bureaucracy to figure out who should get it, not to mention the levels of bureaucracy necessary to prosecute those who are getting it but shouldn't. LEAVE IT ALONE!

 

[tibear]

The clawbacks are the determinant of need. Argue their level if you want to look at this seriously. The 'arguments' that are being made can be reduced to s desire to return to the Poor Laws and Parish (Provincial) welfare.

I'm not saying anything of the sort.....I'm saying that the government needs to be selective in who receives government handouts. Canadians work too hard to have money given freely to people that clearly don't need the money.

 

[JLM]

I'm wondering if "tibear" is a Cannuck alias! aka Senior beater! :lol:

 

[tibear]

Ah, the joys of people who have been so poorly educated that they don't understand our country.

This thread is really a condemnation of our education system, people like tibear have somehow managed to get to where they are today without any grasp of how we got here as a society.

Perhaps we can attempt to have a rational discussion without the personal attacks.......

Let's discuss the issue trying to look at the big picture and not get bogged down in the "what's best for me" position.

Still waiting for someone to try to justify the fact that two seniors making $200K a year qualify for OAS is a good thinkg for the country.

 

[TenPenny]

I'm not saying anything of the sort.....I'm saying that the government needs to be selective in who receives government handouts. Canadians work too hard to have money given freely to people that clearly don't need the money.

I think what you're saying is that you are extremely selfish, self centered, and don't have any grasp of society.

 

[tibear]

I'm going to try again as many intelligent posters have already tried to point out.
1. It's fair, everybody gets it.
2. It's taxable as income, so it's not totally a free ride for the rich.
3. It's really no one's business what the recipients spend it on, but I'll bet some seniors donate it to charity.
4. It's cheaper to pay it to everyone than having to provide another few levels of bureaucracy to figure out who should get it, not to mention the levels of bureaucracy necessary to prosecute those who are getting it but shouldn't. LEAVE IT ALONE!

If you're such a supporter of how OAS works would you also be in favour of having the other social assistance program work in the same manner? Give every Canadian $10K a year and then take it back from taxes where they begin to lose the money when they make over $67K a year and lose the money completely once they earn over $111K a year.

Using your points above, you surely wouldn't have a problem with that change....would you?

I think what you're saying is that you are extremely selfish, self centered, and don't have any grasp of society.

From my experience, when people know they can't "win" a discussion with valid points they turn to personal attacks.

How about getting back to the discussion. Try to justify your position with real facts and positions of fairness.

Your personal attacks only make you look bad.

 

[Tonington]

If you're such a supporter of how OAS works would you also be in favour of having the other social assistance program work in the same manner? Give every Canadian $10K a year and then take it back from taxes where they begin to lose the money when they make over $67K a year and lose the money completely once they earn over $111K a year.

Using your points above, you surely wouldn't have a problem with that change....would you?

You're missing some higher level points of the discussion here. As a group, seniors require more assistance than other groups in our population. That's not a point you can argue against. You can focus on the seniors earning $100,000 if you like, but that is in no way the representative example of a senior on OAS. Revenue Canada already has a system to deal with higher earning seniors.

And in an era of fiscal belt tightening, to which department do you propose to add the FTE's to handle the yearly applications of new seniors applying for your new general welfare program?

For the record, I don't actually expect there to be an OAS by the time I retire. I'm planning now as if it were gone. JLM already asked you, how would you envision these changes occurring? What time frame? What would be your qualifying parameters for the welfare?

Focussing on the few seniors whose needs are not as great as those who retire with $20,000 a year is a disingenuous characterization of the OAS program.

Like I said, there are some high level points of discussion that you don't seem to be adequately considering. Change for the sake of change is a plan to fail.

 

[tibear]

You're missing some higher level points of the discussion here. As a group, seniors require more assistance than other groups in our population. That's not a point you can argue against. You can focus on the seniors earning $100,000 if you like, but that is in no way the representative example of a senior on OAS. Revenue Canada already has a system to deal with higher earning seniors.

And in an era of fiscal belt tightening, to which department do you propose to add the FTE's to handle the yearly applications of new seniors applying for your new general welfare program?

For the record, I don't actually expect there to be an OAS by the time I retire. I'm planning now as if it were gone. JLM already asked you, how would you envision these changes occurring? What time frame? What would be your qualifying parameters for the welfare?

Focussing on the few seniors whose needs are not as great as those who retire with $20,000 a year is a disingenuous characterization of the OAS program.

Like I said, there are some high level points of discussion that you don't seem to be adequately considering. Change for the sake of change is a plan to fail.

How do non-OAS assitance programs gauge the level of assistance that is required? Not everyone that is on social assistance receives the same level of support so how are those decisions made and why couldn't the seniors be included in those decision processes?

I've never said that we "throw our seniors in the cold" but rather why should they be treated any differently than the single parent with three children or the young man with mental illness that needs government assistance? Government assistance programs to determine needs are in place now are they not? Why couldn't the money from OAS simply go into the general social assistance programs and put everyone on a level playing field and who knows with the efficiencies we may actually be able to give MORE money to those seniors that actually need it.

My opening point is that rather than helping those seniors that need help we blindly give money to all seniors whether they need it or not. In my opinion that is rather inefficient method to help our poor seniors.

 

[JLM]

Using your points above, you surely wouldn't have a problem with that change....would you?

Yes, I would, every change requires the participation of umpteen bureaucrats, people whose need of more money is questionable.

 

[TenPenny]

From my experience, when people know they can't "win" a discussion with valid points they turn to personal attacks.

How about getting back to the discussion. Try to justify your position with real facts and positions of fairness.

Your personal attacks only make you look bad.

OAS is a program designed as part of Canada's retirement security system.
You are against it, because it costs you tax money

Therefore, you are selfish and self centered.

That justifies my position quite nicely, as you requested.

 

[tibear]

Yes, I would, every change requires the participation of umpteen bureaucrats, people whose need of more money is questionable.

a
JLM, you claim that OAS is money to help the desolate senior yet you seem to be having a problem showing me why OAS should be treated differently than regular social assistance programs.

Can I take your last comment, "people whose need of more money is questionable" and ask you the same question regarding OAS and ALL canadians over 65 receiving it?

Take away the bureaucratic arguement which you seem to love because using that arguement, OAS, UI, CPP, social assistance, GST rebate, etc would never have been created if we worried about the costs of bureaucrats.

Let's talk about the program, the bureaucrats will work out in the wash at the end of the day.

 

[petros]

How do non-OAS assitance programs gauge the level of assistance that is required? Not everyone that is on social assistance receives the same level of support.

Give them the same as Procvincial disability. Rxs are covered, utilities paid direct to companies, dental, optical, extra for special foods, extra for transport, free access to leisure and recreation centers, and an income/rent supplement. They'd be in better shape than on OAS.

 

[tibear]

OAS is a program designed as part of Canada's retirement security system.
You are against it, because it costs you tax money

Therefore, you are selfish and self centered.

That justifies my position quite nicely, as you requested.

I have absolutely NO problem if we take all of the OAS money and put it into the social assistance programs for ALL canadians. Let's help the truly poor in our nation.

What's your next arguement to support it? Now that it's not about me saving money.

 

[JLM]

a
JLM, you claim that OAS is money to help the desolate senior yet you seem to be having a problem showing me why OAS should be treated differently than regular social assistance programs.

Can I take your last comment, "people whose need of more money is questionable" and ask you the same question regarding OAS and ALL canadians over 65 receiving it?

Take away the bureaucratic arguement which you seem to love because using that arguement, OAS, UI, CPP, social assistance, GST rebate, etc would never have been created if we worried about the costs of bureaucrats.

Let's talk about the program, the bureaucrats will work out in the wash at the end of the day.

OAP shouldn't be compared with other programs, because it's different, it's a pittance for old people, it's helps cover those in need and perhaps it can be looked at as a pay back to the weathier ones who have been highly taxed for 30, 40 or 50 years.

 

[tibear]

Give them the same as Procvincial disability. Rxs are covered, utilities paid direct to companies, dental, optical, extra for special foods, extra for transport, free access to leisure and recreation centers, and an income/rent supplement. They'd be in better shape than on OAS.

Exactly, treat them like the rest of Canadians. Help those that truly need the help and stop giving our free money that don't need it.

 

[JLM]

I have absolutely NO problem if we take all of the OAS money and put it into the social assistance programs for ALL canadians. Let's help the truly poor in our nation.

What's your next arguement to support it? Now that it's not about me saving money.

Many of the truly poor need to help themselves by getting motivated!