This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENOUGH!

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
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Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

earth_as_one said:
There is no evidence which supports your claim that Israel would make peace if militant groups were disarmed.

Just the fact that those militant groups still exist is all the evidence you need of that. You really believe Israel wanted to go to Beirut and was turned back by the Hezbo's? You don't really, do you? Sure the Israeli's were surprised by a few anti-tank weapons, but if Beirut was their goal, that would have set them back maybe a day or two, three tops.

The minority Jews didn't just get the most land, they also got control of most of the water, which is important in a desert.

The minority Jews got the minority land, about 20%. Most of the water forms the border between Israel and Jordan. You seem to be wrong on both points there.

An injustice on such a scale was bound to result in war

You would think so but the Jews accepted the partition anyway. It was the Arabs who refused to settle for what was a sweet deal. They thought they could have it all.

Anyone who believes that Jews have a right to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Palestinians just because Jews dominated Palestine for a short time 2000 years ago ignores completely all the events which happened since.

Actually the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the rest of Arabia dwarfs the cleansing of Arabs from Palestine.

The Romans dominated Palestine for a longer period than the Jews. Maybe Italy should have been awarded Palestine.

Yeah maybe, but they don't want it. Even Jordan, who technically owns the west bank, doesn't want it back. That makes it disputed territory, not occupied territory.

The Ottomans ruled Palestine for a much longer time than the Jews and like the Jews they were defeated by a foreign invasion. Do the Ottomans have a right to Palestine?

See Italy.

But if we are going to use this precedent of awarding sovereignty based on ancient historical and religious rights, then the first nations people own Canada, not Canadians.

Exactly. That's why they're fighting for their treaty rights. Rightfully so. The land can be shared, and should be shared. Only the Arabs speaking of annihilation. Only Jews get torn to shreds in the territories. Arabs in Israel live well.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I never saw your response MikeyDB until now. But I made many of the same points, only I think you argued them better than I did.

Technically Gaza and the West Bank are occupied by Israel. Israel as the occupation force has an obligation to care for these people and protect them.

Israel ethnically cleansed most Palestinians off their land and stole most of their property. Most Palestinians live in refugee camps or concentration camps.

Lets see you find pictures from Iran of Jews being treated as badly as this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafah/232271825/

or what is portrayed in these images:



Gaza June 29, 2006

and



more here:
http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/news/todaymain.htm

How about personal testimony like this recent post from Gaza:

Again in Gaza and as usual, I can hardly sleep: bombings, closures, poverty and internal chaos. Life with lack of electricity is the most awful thing here. For a student to do his/her homework when there is no electricity, that's painful. It is equally painful for someone like Umm Kamal, 46, who is no longer able to save her medicine in the refrigerator.

Last night was particularly awful. F16s and helicopters were sharing the mission to assassinate five members of Hamas. The latest strike on a vehicle killed Ali Issa Al Nachar, a Hamas member aged 20 from the Ezzedine Al Qassam Brigades. Another man also died but he is as yet unknown. Many passers by were injured in the strike which happened while people were asleep in the middle of the night.

An hour earlier an Israeli drone had fired two rockets at a vehicle carrying two other members from the Brigades, killing one of them, 28 year old Ahmed Abdelkarim Ashour, and seriously wounding the other. Medical sources said that 25 people were injured and another 5 killed in less than three hours. The killing in Gaza is still ongoing with Israeli escalation and open war.

On the other hand, tens of thousands of workers took to the streets yesterday demonstrating against the Palestinian government and asking them to give them their salaries. The PA employees were holding signs and banners telling the Palestinian government that they can no longer wait after more than 7 months without salaries. Approximately 170,000 PA employees have not gotten their salaries yet. So when a man and his family starve and no longer have any food at home, what are they expected to do in the end? A question that I will leave for you to answer, or it might be tough on you to keep yourself from not eating for one or two days. But remember that families here in Gaza do that as a daily routine.

"I don’t know if the Americans who are supporting the Israeli Occupation know about the hell we are going through" said Umm Ismail Hamdan, 42, while participating in a demonstration. A woman next to her who preferred to remain anonymous answered her: "Yes of course they know, but they have reached that level where they don’t want to see where their taxes are going."

Now, I will have to leave, F16s are hovering again and it seems a new update will come again about more war crimes by Israeli helicopters.

http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/news/todaymain.htm

Here is what Amnesty International reported:

...Some 190 Palestinians, including around 50 children, were killed by Israeli forces, and 50 Israelis, including six children, were killed by Palestinian armed groups. Israeli forces carried out unlawful attacks and routinely used excessive force against peaceful demonstrators protesting against the destruction of Palestinian agricultural land and the Israeli army’s construction of the fence/wall. Israeli settlers frequently attacked Palestinian farmers, destroying orchards and preventing cultivation of their land. Israeli soldiers and settlers responsible for unlawful killings and other abuses against Palestinians and their property generally had impunity. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested by Israeli forces throughout the Occupied Territories on suspicion of security offences...

2006 Amnesty International Annual Report
http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/isr-summary-eng

Or how about this 2005 Human Rights Watch report?

Human Rights Watch
Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: 2005

...The Israeli army and security forces carried out numerous attacks in Palestinian areas over the course of 2004. These were most intense and extensive in the Gaza Strip, and were often carried out in a manner that failed to demonstrate that the attackers had used all feasible measures to avoid or minimize harm to civilians and their property. Human Rights Watch documented serious violations of international humanitarian law in the course of the Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) May 2004 assault in the southern Gaza town and refugee camp of Rafah, in which over two hundred homes, along with cultivated fields, roads, and other infrastructure, were razed without regard to military necessity. Israeli forces also continued to use lethal force in an excessive or indiscriminate manner. On May 19, 2004, for instance, during the Rafah incursions, an Israeli tank and helicopter gunship fired on a crowd of demonstrators, killing nine persons, including three children. In late September 2004, Israel launched a massive incursion into the northern Gaza Strip. Around 130 Palestinians were killed, more than a quarter of them children. One thirteen-year-old girl, Imam al-Hams, was shot twenty times by an Israeli officer. Several children were killed in their classrooms in other incidents.

There were also numerous instances in the West Bank of civilians killed by indiscriminate Israeli gunfire, such as the deaths in Nablus in June 2004 of Dr. Khaled Salah, a lecturer at Najah University, and his sixteen-year-old son. Israel has failed to investigate suspicious killings and serious injuries by its security forces, including killings of children, thus continuing to foster an atmosphere of impunity....

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/isrlpa9806.htm
Its gotten much worse since then.

I can't find any evidence that Iranian Jews are treated as poorly as Arab/Muslims under Israeli occupation. Iran is a severe country with serious problems.

Amnesty Internatinal 2006 report on Iran
http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/irn-summary-eng

Jews in Iran Describe a Life of Freedom Despite Anti-Israel Actions by Tehran
Michael Theodoulou, Special to The Christian Science Monitor

...It comes as a surprise to many visitors to discover that Iran, a country so hostile to Israel and with a reputation for intolerance, is home to a small but vibrant Jewish community that is an officially recognized religious minority under Iran's 1979 Islamic Constitution.

"[Ayatollah Ruhollah] Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism - he saw us as Iranians," says Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran. Like Iran's Armenian Christians, Jews are tolerated as "people of the book" and allowed to practice their religion freely, provided they do not proselytize.

They elect their own deputy to the 270-seat Parliament and enjoy certain rights of self-administration. Jewish burial and divorce laws are accepted by Islamic courts. Jews are conscripted into the Army.

"We are one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world," Mr. Yashyaei says. "When Muslims came to Iran, we had already been here for centuries."

"Take it from me, the Jewish community here faces no difficulties. If some people left after the revolution, maybe it's because they were scared," says Farangis Hassidim, a forceful but good-humored woman who is charge of the only Jewish hospital in Iran. She adds: "Our position here is not as bad as people abroad may think. We practice our religion freely, we have all our festivals, we have our own schools and kindergartens."

For her, the well-equipped hospital in central Tehran is a model of religious harmony. "We have about 200 staff, 30 percent of them Jewish," she says. "These days, I'd say about 5 percent of our patients are Jewish, the rest are Muslims." A sign outside the hospital reads in Hebrew: "Love thy neighbor as thyself."...

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html

I'd rather be a Jew in Iran than an Arab/Muslim in Gaza.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al- Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab Population."

Moshe Dayan, Address to the Technion, Haifa ( as quoted in Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969)


"By the end of the 1948 war, hundreds of entire villages had not only been depopulated but obliterated, their houses blown up or bulldozed. While many of the sites are difficult of access, to this day the observant traveler of Israeli roads and highways can see traces of their presence that would escape the notice of the casual passerby: a fenced-in area, often surmounting a gentle hill, of olive and other fruit trees left untended, of cactus hedges and domesticated plants run wild. Now and then a few crumbled houses are left standing, a neglected mosque or church, collapsing walls along the ghost of a village lane, but in the vast majority of cases, all that remains is a scattering of stones and rubble across a forgotten landscape."
W. Khalidi, All That Remains

http://www.alnakba.org/villages/villages.htm

Father Rantisi was born in Lyda, now the site of Ben Gurion Airport, in 1937. From 1955 to 1958 he attended the Bible College of Wales, moving in 1963 to continue his studies at Aurora College in the state of Illinois. He then served as a missionary in Sudan. In 1965 he opened the Evangelical Home for Boys in Ramallah, West Bank. In 1976 Father Rantisi was elected as Ramallah's deputy mayor and he is now the director of the orphanage of the Evangelical Home of Boys.

From "Blessed are the Peacemakers ...The History of a Palestinian Christian"

I cannot forget three horror-filled days in July of 1948. The pain sears my memory, and I cannot rid myself of it no matter how hard I try.
First, Israeli soldiers forced thousands of Palestinians from their homes near the Mediterranean coast, even though some families had lived in the same houses for centuries. (My family had been in the town of Lydda in Palestine at least 1,600 years). Then, without water, we stumbled into the hills and continued for three deadly days. The Jewish soldiers followed, occasionally shooting over our heads to scare us and keep us moving. Terror filled my eleven-year-old mind as I wondered what would happen. I remembered overhearing my father and his friends express alarm about recent massacres by Jewish terrorists. Would they kill us, too?

We did not know what to do, except to follow orders and stumble blindly up the rocky hills. I walked hand in hand with my grandfather, who carried our only remaining possessions-a small tin of sugar and some milk for my aunt's two-year-old son, sick with typhoid.

The horror began when Zionist soldiers deceived us into leaving our homes, then would not let us go back, driving us through a small gate just outside Lydda. I remember the scene well: thousands of frightened people being herded like cattle through the narrow opening by armed soldiers firing overhead. In front of me a cart wobbled toward the gate. Alongside, a lady struggled, carrying her baby, pressed by the crowd. Suddenly, in the jostling of the throngs, the child fell. The mother shrieked in agony as the cart's metal-rimmed wheel ran over her baby's neck. That infant's death was the most awful sight I had ever seen.

Outside the gate the soldiers stopped us and ordered everyone to throw all valuables onto a blanket. One young man and his wife of six weeks, friends of our family, stood near me. He refused to give up his money. Almost casually, the soldier pulled up his rifle and shot the man. He fell, bleeding and dying while his bride screamed and cried. I felt nauseated and sick, my whole body numbed by shock waves. That night I cried, too, as I tried to sleep alongside thousands on the ground. Would I ever see my home again? Would the soldiers kill my loved ones, too?

Early the next morning we heard more shots and sprang up. A bullet just missed me and killed a donkey nearby. Everybody started running as a stampede. I was terror-stricken when I lost sight of my family, and I frantically searched all day as the crowd moved along.

That second night, after the soldiers let us stop, I wandered among the masses of people, desperately searching and calling. Suddenly in the darkness I heard my father's voice. I shouted out to him. What joy was in me! I had thought I would never see him again. As he and my mother held me close, I knew I could face whatever was necessary. The next day brought more dreadful experiences. Still branded on my memory is a small child beside the road, sucking the breast of its dead mother. Along the way I saw many stagger and fall. Others lay dead or dying in the scorching midsummer heat. Scores of pregnant women miscarried, and their babies died along the wayside. The wife of my father's cousin became very thirsty. After a long while she said she could not continue. Soon she slumped down and was dead. Since we could not carry her we wrapped her in cloth, and after praying, just left her beside a tree. I don't know what happened to her body.

We eventually found a well, but had no way to get water. Some of the men tied a rope around my father's cousin and lowered him down, then pulled him out, and gave us water squeezed from his clothing. The few drops helped, but thirst still tormented me as I marched along in the shadeless, one-hundred plus degree heat.

We trudged nearly twenty miles up rocky hills, then down into deep valleys, then up again, gradually higher and higher. Finally we found a main road, where some Arabs met us. They took some of us in trucks to Ramallah, ten miles north of Jerusalem. I lived in a refugee tent camp for the next three and one-half years. We later learned that two Jewish families had taken over our family home in Lydda.

Those wretched days and nights in mid-July of 1948 continue as a lifelong nightmare because Zionists took away our home of many centuries. For me and a million other Palestinian Arabs, tragedy had marred our lives forever.
Throughout his life my father remembered and suffered. For thirty-one years before his death in 1979, he kept the large metal key to our house in Lydda.
After more than four decades I still bear the emotional scars of the Zionist invasion. Yet, as an adult, I see what I did not fully understand then: that the Jews are also human beings, themselves driven by fear, victims of history's worst outrages, rabidly, sometimes almost mindlessly searching for security. Lamentably, they have victimized my people.

Four years after our flight from Lydda I dedicated my life to the service of Jesus Christ. Like me and my fellow refugees, Jesus had lived in adverse circumstances, often with only a stone for a pillow. As with his fellow Jews two thousand years ago and the Palestinians today, an outside power controlled his homeland-my homeland. They tortured and killed him in Jerusalem, only ten miles from Ramallah, and my new home. He was the victim of terrible indignities. Nevertheless, Jesus prayed on behalf of those who engineered his death, "Father, forgive them..."
Can I do less?

http://www.alnakba.org/testimony/audeh.htm
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
43
48
SW Ontario
Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

earth_as_one said:
I haven't got time to debunk all the BS you just posted JTF.

but I will post these maps:

Great, maps from AFTER the partition. Thanks for proving my point. Same old shite. Transjordan just appeared from nowhere, right? Abracadabra, ladies and gentleman....Jordan!

As for your pictures, thats what happens when you fire three rockets a day for A YEAR!!! at your neighbour. Eventually the shoot back. So that's all you got? A map that proves my point and pictures and some stories of what happens when you make war instead of working for peace?

You're fooling fewer and fewer people all the time. An independent state for "Palestinians" has been on the table for over a decade. It's not what it's about though, is it? It's not about fairness and dignity and living together in honour and peace, is it? No! Absolutely not! It's about Israel, and her elimination.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Before Zionism, the area eventually partitioned by the UN was 2% Jewish. That is, what is today Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

By 1947, Palestine had been overrun by well armed refugees fleeing fleeing the horrors of Nazi Europe. Even then immigrant and Palestinian Jews together were still only a one third minority in the area which is today known as Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. Go look at the different shades of colors or the black dots above...

Non-Jewish Palestinian locals never had a chance. About a third/half found themselves in a newly formed Jewish state, hostile and belligerent to its neighbors. The new immigrants were mean, united and well armed. European colonial powers looked the other way while Jewish refugees and weapons flowed into Palestine. Emmigration worked for Europe. At the same time they maintained an arms embargo on the locals.

The inevitable war was brutal. Both sides committed atrocities and resorted to terrorist tactics. When the foreign immigrant army defeated invading foreign Arab/Muslim armies, they turned their attention to the local unarmed non-Jewish Palestinians. A wave of ethic cleansing followed.

If the foreign Arab/Muslim coalition had prevailed, the Jews and Palestinians would likely become victims. Either way most of the Palestinians were probably going to get the short of the stick from one group of foreigners or the other.

The Jewish immigrant side won the war, called itself Israel and proceeded to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Palestinians. The fighting in Palestine between locals and immigrants simmered for years before the neighboring Arab countries invaded in 1948.

Israeli historians have documented this history with documentation from Israel archives:

Survival of the Fittest? An Interview with Benny Morris
with
Ari Shavit

Benny Morris says he was always a Zionist. People were mistaken when they labeled him a post-Zionist, when they thought that his historical study on the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem was intended to undercut the Zionist enterprise. Nonsense, Morris says, that’s completely unfounded. Some readers simply misread the book. They didn’t read it with the same detachment, the same moral neutrality, with which it was written. So they came to the mistaken conclusion that when Morris describes the cruelest deeds that the Zionist movement perpetrated in 1948 he is actually being condemnatory, that when he describes the large-scale expulsion operations he is being denunciatory. They did not conceive that the great documenter of the sins of Zionism in fact identifies with those sins. That he thinks some of them, at least, were unavoidable...

...Rape, massacre, transfer...

According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948].

Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?

From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created.

Ben-Gurion was a “transferist”?

Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist.

I don’t hear you condemning him.

Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here.


When ethnic cleansing is justified....

the rest here:

http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm

Is there any doubts left about what happened?
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
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Canada
MikeyDB said:
There is of course no reasoning with these folk; they are generally dyed-in-the-wool “believers” who have elected to ignore the injustices and illegalities that have on various occasions threatened to bring much wider violence to the world.

Their language begins with … “Oh yer one of them lefties who think….” And any opinion whether substantiated with fact or not, that challenges their view is robustly denigrated and dismissed.

One can’t really expect to have a discussion with people who are entrenched in protecting a “status quo” that is both ill informed and prejudiced from the onset.

I’m through attempting to speak to these folk and would simply like to thank them for pointing out why so many people of this planet suffer while those who could do something to change that situation choose not to.



Hm... so what then do we do? Seppuku?
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
RE: This must end NOW: Ca

I dunno MikeyDB. I think there are posters and I think there are readers. Sometimes I imagine there are readers who don’t know of a lot of information but are suddenly looking for some kind of answer to all the chaos and the last thing they need is a real bad slant from somebody.

I often ask myself how much more of my time should I be committing to all this talk. There is some really important work I could be using my time on but having watched the USA in action, one thing that really struck me was a lack of an opposing voice.

I love this country. To the extent that I would actually feel some guilt if I didn’t contribute any voice. If this country does go into the crapper, at least I’ll know it didn’t occur with me contributing nothing but apathy.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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elevennevele said:
MikeyDB said:
There is of course no reasoning with these folk; they are generally dyed-in-the-wool “believers” who have elected to ignore the injustices and illegalities that have on various occasions threatened to bring much wider violence to the world.

Their language begins with … “Oh yer one of them lefties who think….” And any opinion whether substantiated with fact or not, that challenges their view is robustly denigrated and dismissed.

One can’t really expect to have a discussion with people who are entrenched in protecting a “status quo” that is both ill informed and prejudiced from the onset.

I’m through attempting to speak to these folk and would simply like to thank them for pointing out why so many people of this planet suffer while those who could do something to change that situation choose not to.



Hm... so what then do we do? Seppuku?

EXCELLENT idea!

(sorry, couldn't resist, just kidding.......really) 8)
 

Colpy

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Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

earth_as_one said:
Jews in Iran Describe a Life of Freedom Despite Anti-Israel Actions by Tehran
Michael Theodoulou, Special to The Christian Science Monitor

...It comes as a surprise to many visitors to discover that Iran, a country so hostile to Israel and with a reputation for intolerance, is home to a small but vibrant Jewish community that is an officially recognized religious minority under Iran's 1979 Islamic Constitution.

"[Ayatollah Ruhollah] Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism - he saw us as Iranians," says Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran. Like Iran's Armenian Christians, Jews are tolerated as "people of the book" and allowed to practice their religion freely, provided they do not proselytize.

They elect their own deputy to the 270-seat Parliament and enjoy certain rights of self-administration. Jewish burial and divorce laws are accepted by Islamic courts. Jews are conscripted into the Army.

"We are one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world," Mr. Yashyaei says. "When Muslims came to Iran, we had already been here for centuries."

"Take it from me, the Jewish community here faces no difficulties. If some people left after the revolution, maybe it's because they were scared," says Farangis Hassidim, a forceful but good-humored woman who is charge of the only Jewish hospital in Iran. She adds: "Our position here is not as bad as people abroad may think. We practice our religion freely, we have all our festivals, we have our own schools and kindergartens."

For her, the well-equipped hospital in central Tehran is a model of religious harmony. "We have about 200 staff, 30 percent of them Jewish," she says. "These days, I'd say about 5 percent of our patients are Jewish, the rest are Muslims." A sign outside the hospital reads in Hebrew: "Love thy neighbor as thyself."...

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html

I'd rather be a Jew in Iran than an Arab/Muslim in Gaza.

I have no evidence otherwise, except for the fact a Canadian intellectual was jailed for months in Iran for contradicting the President's opinion that the Holocaust didn't happen...........so I'll accept this at face value.

I am glad that Jews are allowed to live in peace in Iran, as are Christians, although you have to realize they would be killed if they tried to preach their religion to Muslims. "Christians, Jews are tolerated as "people of the book" and allowed to practice their religion freely, provided they do not proselytize." Odd sense of freedom, the Iranians have.

Unfortunately, you did NOT answer my question..........

I'm going to ask YOU the question no one will answer.......

Would you rather be an Muslim Arab living in Israel, or a Jew living in any Arab country surrounding Israel?
Take your time.

The answer should indicate which side is deserving of support.

Iran is PERSIAN, not Arab, and it DOES NOT border Israel.

And Gaza, as you have pointed out so many times, is NOT Israel.

E for effort, try again.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Here, let me help with your research.........

COORDINATING A PROGRAM OF EXPULSION

In a key address before the Political Committee of the U.N. General Assembly on November 14, 1947, just five days before that body voted on the partition plan for Palestine, Heykal Pasha, an Egyptian delegate, made the following key statement in connection with that plan:

The United Nations . . . should not lose sight of the fact that the proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Moslem countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the anti-Semitism which the Allies were trying to eradicate in Germany. . . If the United Nations decides to partition Palestine, it might be responsible for the massacre of a large number of Jews.
Heykal Pasha then elaborated on his threat:

A million Jews live in peace in Egypt [and other Muslim countries] and enjoy all rights of citizenship. They have no desire to emigrate to Palestine. However, if a Jewish State were established, nobody could prevent disorders. Riots would break out in Palestine, would spread through all the Arab states and might lead to a war between two races.1
Heykal Pasha's thinly veiled threats of "grave disorders," "massacre," "riots," and "war between two races" did not at the time go unnoticed by Jews;2 for them, it had the same ring as the proposition made six years earlier by the Palestinian leader Hajj Amin al-Husayni to Hitler of a "final solution" for the Jews of Arab countries, including Palestine. But the statement appears to have made no lasting impression, to the point that a historian of the Jews in Egypt has described Heykal Pasha as "a well-known liberal."3

Particularly noteworthy is that although Heykal Pasha spoke at the United Nations in his capacity as a representative of Egypt, he continuously mentioned the Jews "in other Muslim countries" and "all the Arab states," suggesting a level of coordination among the Arab governments. Indeed, four days after his statement, Iraq's Foreign Minister Fadil Jamali declared at the United Nations that "interreligious prejudice and hatred" would bring about a great deterioration in the Arab-Jewish relationship in Iraq and in the Arab world at large,4 thereby reinforcing the impression that Heykal Pasha was talking not just on behalf of Egypt but for all the independent Arab states. Further confirmation came several days later, after the General Assembly had decided in favor of partitioning Palestine, when, "following orders issued by the Arab League,"5 Muslims engaged in outrages against Jews living in Aden and Aleppo.6

Another indication that Arab rulers coordinated the expulsion of Jews from their terrorites comes from a Beirut meeting one and a half years later of senior diplomats from all the Arab States. By this time, March 1949, the Arab states had already lost the first Arab-Israeli war; they now used this defeat to justify an expulsion that had been officially proclaimed before the war even began. As reported in a Syrian newspaper, "If Israel should oppose the return of the Arab refugees to their homes, the Arab governments will expel the Jews living in their countries."7
http://www.meforum.org/article/263

A slightly different view than what you've been fed by the supposedly pro-Israeli media, eh?

And yes, more Jews than Palestinians were uprooted and forced from their homes, some dying in the conflict with Arab authorities.

But Israel accepted them, took them in, assimilated them.

The Arabs have ignored, abused, and manipulated the Palestinians for almost 60 years.

Read the entire article, it lays out the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries nation by nation.

Never heard of it, had you?
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
Colpy said:
elevennevele said:
MikeyDB said:
There is of course no reasoning with these folk; they are generally dyed-in-the-wool “believers” who have elected to ignore the injustices and illegalities that have on various occasions threatened to bring much wider violence to the world.

Their language begins with … “Oh yer one of them lefties who think….” And any opinion whether substantiated with fact or not, that challenges their view is robustly denigrated and dismissed.

One can’t really expect to have a discussion with people who are entrenched in protecting a “status quo” that is both ill informed and prejudiced from the onset.

I’m through attempting to speak to these folk and would simply like to thank them for pointing out why so many people of this planet suffer while those who could do something to change that situation choose not to.



Hm... so what then do we do? Seppuku?

EXCELLENT idea!

(sorry, couldn't resist, just kidding.......really) 8)



Yep MikeyDB. It looks like you were right after all.









ok just kidding too Colpy
(maybe)
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Historically, in general, Arabs/Muslims and Jews got along as well or better than Europeans/Christians and Jews. I know that highly qualified statement isn't saying much. But as a result, Europeans/Christians aren't in a position to criticise Arab/Muslim relations with Jews.

Jews suffered discrimination, oppression and crimes against humanity by both European/Christians and Arab/Muslims. But Arab/Muslims never tried to exterminate Jews like European Christians.

In general, Muslims treated all non-Muslims the same. (i.e. poorly)

An exception was the Ottoman Turks. The Ottomans were Muslim and they ruled Palestine for 400 years until the end of WW I. The Ottomans did treat Jews justly and protected them.

Until World War I the Land of Israel also known as Palestine, remained under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. During this period the Jewish population living in this region similarly enjoyed religious freedom maintaining their synagogues and daily lives as loyal subjects of the greater Ottoman Empire. After World War I, the British Empire gained control of Transjordan and Palestine which ended in 1948 with the declaration of independence of the State of Israel.

In pre World War II times Turkey opened its doors to Jews from Europe and many German Jewish scientists came to Turkey escaping the Nazi regime. As a biochemist myself, by first hand account I have heard stories of Turkish scientists honoring their German Jewish teachers who escaped to Turkey and taught in universities in Istanbul. The Sephardic communities in Turkey and Bulgaria were the only communities that did not suffer the Nazi Holocaust, thanks to the wisdom of the leaders of these countries during World War II. In contrast, nearly the entire Sephardic Jewish community of Greece was killed during World War II by the Nazi death machine. The Turkish ambassador to the Greek Island Rhodes, Mr. Selahattin Ulkumen, was awarded the unique medal of "The Righteous Among the Nations" for saving Jews of this island risking his own life.

After World War II, while the British rule tried to prevent the movement of the Jewish refugees into Israel, the modern day Turkish republic allowed its Jewish citizens freely to emigrate to Israel. The current population of Turkish-Jews in Israel is estimated as about 100,000, though a precise figure is difficult to obtain. This represents a relatively small community in the general population of about 6 million in Israel. The major wave of emigration from Turkey to Israel took place between 1940-1950. This migration from Turkey was not a result of a desire to escape from Turkey but rather emanated from the national desire to return to the homeland of our forefathers as each day three times a day we prayed to return to Jerusalem.

My own personal appreciation of Turkish attitude to Jews was shaped slowly. Like any minority in any country, sometimes isolated events of differential treatment are raised. Yet, as I became more knowledgeable and could compare cultures and countries around the globe with the passing of age and experience, we became much more appreciative of the benevolence of the Turkish people who harbored the Jewish people through incredibly barbaric times in the annals of European history. In retrospect of what we know of European history today, we owe Turkish people a great debt of gratitude for saving the lives of thousands of Jews. As Turkish-Jews we have a strong national identity as the descendants of the Biblical Israelites, yet to this day we also feel ourselves as Turkish and identify with the Turkish People....

http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/tjews_story.html

Israel's crimes against humanity in 1947-48 cannot be justified by events which happened later on such as the expulsion of Jews from Arab/Muslim countries from 1948-50's and again in the 1960's. Palestinians never asked these leaders to commit these crimes, nor did they participate or benefit from them.

In the context of this conflict, non-Jewish Palestinian should be judged by their relations with Palestinian Jews. This relationship was much more peaceful, fair and just than the relationship between Jews and non-Jews in other Arab/Muslim nations or in Europe.

Israel's war crimes against Palestinians during and immediately following the 1948 war can't be justified by the horrors committed against Jews by Nazi Germany. Palestinians did not participate in these events.

Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine of Palestinians can not be justified by the 1948 war. Most Palestinians did not participate in this war. The war was mostly between foreigners (Arab/Muslim vs Jew). Since most of the battles took place on Palestinian land, that makes Palestinians victims of war, not belligerents.

Most of the 4 million Palestinian refugees are innocent victims. They had nothing to do with the horrors of Nazi Europe and no power to stop Jewish refugees from settling in Palestine. They were never consulted when the UN divided Palestine and transferred sovereignty to hostile immigrants. They never asked foreign Muslim/Arab armies to invade Palestine. They never asked Muslim/Arab governments to expel their Jewish citizens.

Yet as a result of these events, four million Palestinians have no rights, no future and no hope. They continue to rot in refugee camps. I think that's a legitimate cause to be angry with Israel specifically for cleansing them off their land and the world in general for creating/aiding Israel and not taking responsibility for the resulting mess.

People who deny the Nakba (Israel's 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine) and the current suffering of Palestinians are no better than people who deny the Holocaust and historical suffering of Jews.

Blaming Palestinian victims for their situation won't lead to a fair, just or peaceful solution.

In this conflict, listening to Israel's version of events (which 99% the same as our news), won't lead to an understanding of the Palestinian situation.

Palestinian refugees aren't going away. International diplomacy has failed these people for nearly 60 years. Over time, Palestinians have become more numerous, more angry and better armed.

I doubt either side is willing to live peacefully with the other now. If a peaceful solution isn't found, then sooner or later one side will end up exterminating the other.