The Pope Has Passed On
- Thread starter Rick van Opbergen
- Start date
Pea,
I'm still waiting for you to prove your contention that my arguements are biblically based.
Until you can prove your contention, there are multiple threads to go through, please refrain from labeling me something I'm not.
You sit there with the "prove your faith" stance, something I've already said is virtually impossible to do with non-believers. Yet, you shrink from a challenge which is readily avaiable and easy for you to do.
It's just you prefer to attack me personally with lies rather than backing your position with facts.
RB, Vanni or anyone else, please come to Pea's defense to help support her arguement that I'm a bible thumper that uses faith related arguements to make points. IT seems she is unable to do so, perhaps her "teammates" can help her prove her contention.
Has that for a gaunlet being thrown down??
I've tried to be respectfull(As much as I can), but am getting to the end of my rope with the constant attacks.
I'm still waiting for you to prove your contention that my arguements are biblically based.
Until you can prove your contention, there are multiple threads to go through, please refrain from labeling me something I'm not.
You sit there with the "prove your faith" stance, something I've already said is virtually impossible to do with non-believers. Yet, you shrink from a challenge which is readily avaiable and easy for you to do.
It's just you prefer to attack me personally with lies rather than backing your position with facts.
RB, Vanni or anyone else, please come to Pea's defense to help support her arguement that I'm a bible thumper that uses faith related arguements to make points. IT seems she is unable to do so, perhaps her "teammates" can help her prove her contention.
Has that for a gaunlet being thrown down??
I've tried to be respectfull(As much as I can), but am getting to the end of my rope with the constant attacks.
Where do you get the idea that either the rev and I want christian belief banned????????????? where did either of us ever say that? I simply state I do not believe them, and I question them ONLY when they want to make them part of laws.
Okays folks right here and now. Peapod does not want or desire to bann anyone's religious beliefs. The fact that I do not buy them, does not mean I desire or want them banned. Vanni's challenge ladyc is to simply show his reasons for not believing. He has studied and did alot of research on the question, why wouldn't anyone be interested in his findings. For petes sakes vanni wife is a church going christian, do you think he wants her banned and outlawed. My mother goes to church, do I want her banned?? Get a gripe, because we ask questions and refute all of sudden we are the romans throwing the christians in with the lions.
We have progressed far enough that we can now question all sorts of things.
Okays folks right here and now. Peapod does not want or desire to bann anyone's religious beliefs. The fact that I do not buy them, does not mean I desire or want them banned. Vanni's challenge ladyc is to simply show his reasons for not believing. He has studied and did alot of research on the question, why wouldn't anyone be interested in his findings. For petes sakes vanni wife is a church going christian, do you think he wants her banned and outlawed. My mother goes to church, do I want her banned?? Get a gripe, because we ask questions and refute all of sudden we are the romans throwing the christians in with the lions.
We have progressed far enough that we can now question all sorts of things.
Tibear prove me wrong than please. Please tell where you get your belief that homosexuality is wrong and a sin. Where do you get this belief from. What is it based on?
Where do you get the idea I think that?peapod said:
You claimed that historically Christianity has caused nothing but misery to the minority, so I said that you should take a look through history and see what happens when the state tries to outlaw religious beliefs.
Vanni's challenge isn't just to show his reasons for his disbelief. If that were the case it wouldn't be a challenge, now, would it? No... you and a few others seem intent on proving the faith of certain people wrong.
Why is that so important to you? Can you seriously not see that you're trying to cram your own beliefs down our throats?
Personally, I don't care what church anyone does or doesn't go to.
Why is it important to me, I cannot believe you can even ask that question.....I do not want the church in the government! Thats it...end of story...
Pea,
I don't have any problems with you asking questions, it is your assertions that I have problems with.
You seem to have an agenda to attack anyone that has a right-wing/conservative/religious believe that you don't share.
Am I completely innocent of attacking you, regrettably no. However, I think any unbiased observer would conclude that took many jabs and punches before relatiating a time or two.
You done nothing but portray me as a religious fanatic who is going around and condemning people who don't follow the Christian faith to hell. Nothing can be further from the truth, yet you continue to attack my character with assertions that simply are untrue.
Did you even try to look through the SSM and abortion threads to try to back your contention???? I doubt it.
I think it is healthy to have open and honest debates. However, the debates need to be respectful, which I have tried to be. Sadly, I don't think you can say the same and your rather proud of that fact by using words such as, "If you don't like it, tough!"
Jay,
I know what Pea, Vanni and RB want. But their not going to get it. They want all of the people who don't think like them to disappear.
They accuse us trying to force our opinions onto others when infact it is the reverse and I'm NOT going to be silent when I hear crap like that.
I appreciate the support from the like of LadyC, yourself and others. I can't say I support some of the disrespect that flies from both sides but everyone has the right to voice their opinion.
As LadyC said,
I don't have any problems with you asking questions, it is your assertions that I have problems with.
You seem to have an agenda to attack anyone that has a right-wing/conservative/religious believe that you don't share.
Am I completely innocent of attacking you, regrettably no. However, I think any unbiased observer would conclude that took many jabs and punches before relatiating a time or two.
You done nothing but portray me as a religious fanatic who is going around and condemning people who don't follow the Christian faith to hell. Nothing can be further from the truth, yet you continue to attack my character with assertions that simply are untrue.
Did you even try to look through the SSM and abortion threads to try to back your contention???? I doubt it.
I think it is healthy to have open and honest debates. However, the debates need to be respectful, which I have tried to be. Sadly, I don't think you can say the same and your rather proud of that fact by using words such as, "If you don't like it, tough!"
Jay,
I know what Pea, Vanni and RB want. But their not going to get it. They want all of the people who don't think like them to disappear.
They accuse us trying to force our opinions onto others when infact it is the reverse and I'm NOT going to be silent when I hear crap like that.
I appreciate the support from the like of LadyC, yourself and others. I can't say I support some of the disrespect that flies from both sides but everyone has the right to voice their opinion.
As LadyC said,
peapod said:
Oh, I see. So Vanni's challenge, and your insistence that we take him up on it, are all about separation of Church and State.
Don't know how I missed that.
I condem no one to hell, I do not believe it exists, if it does its right here on earth. You still did not answer my question tho did you.
In conclusion let me add this, I can respect and even admire an indivdual or a organazation that says yes this was wrong, we were wrong and we are going to fix it. What I do not respect is someone or anything that tries to cover something up at the expense of others.
In conclusion let me add this, I can respect and even admire an indivdual or a organazation that says yes this was wrong, we were wrong and we are going to fix it. What I do not respect is someone or anything that tries to cover something up at the expense of others.
Pea,
There are 576 posts to the abortion thread, I think maybe a couple hundred are mine where I answer a whole series of questions from various people. Take some time to go through them and look for one bible quote from me.
There are 253 posts to the Harper says he will protect traditional marriage thread. Same as above.
So you admit that you respect and admire the Catholic Church because this is EXACTLY what they have said. They have apologized, said they are wrong and have put in place regulations to ensure the abuse will not happen again. Everyone must come forward with allegations and they must be dealt with immediately, both legally and clerically.
There are 576 posts to the abortion thread, I think maybe a couple hundred are mine where I answer a whole series of questions from various people. Take some time to go through them and look for one bible quote from me.
There are 253 posts to the Harper says he will protect traditional marriage thread. Same as above.
So you admit that you respect and admire the Catholic Church because this is EXACTLY what they have said. They have apologized, said they are wrong and have put in place regulations to ensure the abuse will not happen again. Everyone must come forward with allegations and they must be dealt with immediately, both legally and clerically.
RE: The Pope Has Passed O
They hid it for years, tibear. They also haven't changed their stance on condoms in Africa, where people are dying because priests tell them that if they use condoms they will go to hell.
They hid it for years, tibear. They also haven't changed their stance on condoms in Africa, where people are dying because priests tell them that if they use condoms they will go to hell.
RB,
Please find me a Church document that specifically says that someone is going to hell if they do..........
The Church may excommunicate someone from the Church but I don't believe it has ever said that someone is specifically going to Hell. That final judgement is left to the Lord.
Does the Church have moral teachings? Absolutely.
Do we all agree with them? No.
Do non-Catholics have to follow the rules? No.
Do moral teachings change over time? Yes.
Does the Church change as fast as you would like? Probably not.
Are the issues that North American Catholics want the Church to deal with have a huge following with the rest of the Church worldwide? No.
One of the problems that the Catholic Church has is that it is truly a worldwide organization that has different areas of concern in different parts of the world. The vast majority of Catholics around the world are in favour of male-only priesthood, married priests and the stance on SSM. Simply because the North American culture has a problem with some of these issues doesn't mean that it is a concern for the worldwide church, there are much more pressing issues such as the plight of the poor.
Could the Church be clearer on its stance with regards to certain issues? Absolutely. The issue of abortion is one that is clearly misunderstood. I have already said in the abortion thread that the Church is in favour of aborting a child if the mother will die as a result of the pregnancy. This is something very few Catholics are aware of, not to mention non-Catholics.
I think you will find the Church's stance on the use of condoms with regards to AIDS is not as you suspect either.
Ignorance of the teaching of the Church is one of the most frustrating aspects of the people on this forum.
Please find me a Church document that specifically says that someone is going to hell if they do..........
The Church may excommunicate someone from the Church but I don't believe it has ever said that someone is specifically going to Hell. That final judgement is left to the Lord.
Does the Church have moral teachings? Absolutely.
Do we all agree with them? No.
Do non-Catholics have to follow the rules? No.
Do moral teachings change over time? Yes.
Does the Church change as fast as you would like? Probably not.
Are the issues that North American Catholics want the Church to deal with have a huge following with the rest of the Church worldwide? No.
One of the problems that the Catholic Church has is that it is truly a worldwide organization that has different areas of concern in different parts of the world. The vast majority of Catholics around the world are in favour of male-only priesthood, married priests and the stance on SSM. Simply because the North American culture has a problem with some of these issues doesn't mean that it is a concern for the worldwide church, there are much more pressing issues such as the plight of the poor.
Could the Church be clearer on its stance with regards to certain issues? Absolutely. The issue of abortion is one that is clearly misunderstood. I have already said in the abortion thread that the Church is in favour of aborting a child if the mother will die as a result of the pregnancy. This is something very few Catholics are aware of, not to mention non-Catholics.
I think you will find the Church's stance on the use of condoms with regards to AIDS is not as you suspect either.
Ignorance of the teaching of the Church is one of the most frustrating aspects of the people on this forum.
Well yes ladyC you have got it! That is exactly it. Since there is now an element that wants to put the beliefs of the church into the government, than yes I do support vanni's thread in showing that such a belief system is flawed.
Tibear again I ask you where do you get the "belief" that homosexuality is wrong. Answer the question so we can move on. If you come to that belief based on the teaching of the bible than yes I do believe vanni can show the flaws in the bibles teachings.
Don't fret ladyc vanni is up for the challenge it should get interesting and informative now that you have joined the debate.
Tibear again I ask you where do you get the "belief" that homosexuality is wrong. Answer the question so we can move on. If you come to that belief based on the teaching of the bible than yes I do believe vanni can show the flaws in the bibles teachings.
Don't fret ladyc vanni is up for the challenge it should get interesting and informative now that you have joined the debate.
One more thing tibear...get real! Do you actually think I could admire a insituation that tells a women she has to keep giving birth even when she cannot feed the childern she has. Get real! Where is the common sense in that???
Do you think I could admire an institution that has no place for women in its organazation???
Do you really think I could admire an institution run by men that tells a women what she can do with her own body.
And I will even go further than that, a majority of those people that tick the box next to catholic, well they are just living a life of sin like the rest of us. They are using birth control, they are having abortions, and some are even gay. No I do not have to get real you do.
Do you think I could admire an institution that has no place for women in its organazation???
Do you really think I could admire an institution run by men that tells a women what she can do with her own body.
And I will even go further than that, a majority of those people that tick the box next to catholic, well they are just living a life of sin like the rest of us. They are using birth control, they are having abortions, and some are even gay. No I do not have to get real you do.
No, peapod... Vanni's thread has nothing to do with politics.
No-one, not tibear nor anyone else, owes you an answer or an explanation. He's free to answer whatever questions he chooses.
I don't care if you believe Vanni can prove the Bible is flawed. He's just another anonymous moniker on the 'net. We have no idea who he is or what his credentials are.
For me, it's all about respect.
No-one, not tibear nor anyone else, owes you an answer or an explanation. He's free to answer whatever questions he chooses.
I don't care if you believe Vanni can prove the Bible is flawed. He's just another anonymous moniker on the 'net. We have no idea who he is or what his credentials are.
For me, it's all about respect.
For me its about the truth.
And of course tibear will not answer the question, because his beliefs about homosexuality are based on the bible. You don't even care that they are based on bullshit, and single out on a minority of people.
And of course tibear will not answer the question, because his beliefs about homosexuality are based on the bible. You don't even care that they are based on bullshit, and single out on a minority of people.
RE: The Pope Has Passed O
The church's opposition to condom usage is well-known, tibear. Various agencies and individuals have reported priests in the developing world telling people they will go to hell if they use condoms. If you'd been following the story at all, you'd know about that. You would also know about John Paul's decision to keep telling people not to use condoms in spite of the AIDS epidemic, overpopulation, poverty, and starvation.
The church's opposition to condom usage is well-known, tibear. Various agencies and individuals have reported priests in the developing world telling people they will go to hell if they use condoms. If you'd been following the story at all, you'd know about that. You would also know about John Paul's decision to keep telling people not to use condoms in spite of the AIDS epidemic, overpopulation, poverty, and starvation.