The Pope Has Passed On

[LadyC]

Geez lighten up.As far as i'm concerned you can believe what ever you want.Just don't show up at my door saturday morning and just don't try to shove your morality down my throat! :wink: As far as catholism didn't they protect the nazis ?

What makes you think I'm not "lightened up"? You seem to be the one who thinks it'd be pretty to watch my beliefs ripped to shreds. :wink:

I'm not a JW, so I don't peddle my religion door-to-door. Nor have I tried to shove my morality down your or anyone else's throat.

I'll repeat.... I'm not a Catholic, but I think they did indeed try to protect the Nazis... as did several other groups. I also believe John Paul II apologized for that. Too little, too late perhaps, but I always appreciate an apology nevertheless. Many people have a difficult time admitting they were wrong. Those who do earn my respect and admiration.

 

[LadyC]

I respect your beliefs, I expect the same consideration.

You'd never know it by the way you go after them as soon as they are expressed. My beliefs aren't faith-based though, they are rooted in harsh reality.

I don't go after your beliefs, Rev. In fact, if you like I can post a couple of my old posts where I support your right to your atheism.

Read my words more carefully... I'm not attacking anyone for their beliefs or lack thereof. Rather, I'm criticizing them for attacking other people's beliefs.

There have been more than a couple of topics posted here that are little more than attacks on some people's religious beliefs. I take exception to that.... whether I agree with the religious beliefs or not.

The irony here is delicious.

 

[mrmom2]

Oh okay sorry then.But its not just JW's that show up though we get all kinds around here Lady C 8)

 

[LadyC]

I only get JWs. Here's a tip though... invite them to pray with you, but on condition that YOU do the praying. They won't do that.

And you've earned my respect and admiration. Sorry there's no other prize...

 

[Reverend Blair]

Rather, I'm criticizing them for attacking other people's beliefs.

I don't give a rat's ass about the Pope's beliefs. I attack his actions. If those actions stem from his beliefs, that's his problem.

 

[LadyC]

I think this daylight savings thing has hit you hard. You seem to be having a little difficulty with comprehension.

I'm not talking about the Pope's beliefs... I'm talking about the beliefs of the members here. They get attacked constantly, sometimes with cause, more often without.

I don't care if someone is Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist. I have reasons for believing what I do, I assume the others do as well. Everyone need to show a little more respect.

 

[tibear]

Pea,

Your "evidence" that you posted that indicated that the Pope knew what was going on, never mentions the Pope once. As I said earlier, there are some bishops who knew and should be held accountable but stop trying to persecute people who didn't know about the problems.

If as you suggest that the Pope should routinely go and investigate every priest, brother or sister to see if they are abusing wouldn't the Church be then accused of conducting a "witch hunt". No direct evidence of abuse simply an assumption that there are abusers out there that need to be "smoked" out.

LadyC, Jay, Judland I appreciate the support. It is difficult at times to debate an issue with some of the people in this forum. They are more interested in personally attacking others then they are looking at the topic.

I've had many discussions with different people here and it seems that once the "group" labels you as "religious" they treat you with distain and ridicule everything you say without regard to the content. They have constantly called me a religious zealot, fanatic, etc even though I've never told any of them their going to hell, that we have to live our lives according to the bible, I've never "preached" from the bible. I've simply put forward my beliefs and how Catholics and pro-life people came to understand their belief.

Again, thanks for the support. Sometimes, it feels like Rodney King surrounded by white police officers who don't care what I'm saying, all they know is that they need to keep on attacking until I stop talking.

 

[jamie]

Re: RE: The Pope Has Passed On

jamie:
"P.S. there are many people who have had sex while using a rubber and were infected by AIDS."

Rick:
In fact, condoms are 99.9% of the time effective. You hear that there are people who got a STD or got pregnant while using a condom. Now, they did some research about that, and the chance that it's the "condom's fault" is really, really slim. Rather, the 3% of people where the condom doesn't work like it should, it is mostly these people to blame for it. Meaning: they have for example broken the condom themselves by putting it on incorrectly, or they have used a condom which was far too old. I saw an interesting documentary on this already some time ago on Belgian television, it was made after a Brazilian bishop had said that condoms are far from reliable. The documentary clearly showed that condoms ARE reliable, but it are the people themselves who aren't 100%.

Like I pretty much said, condoms are not a cure all. Shit happens.


"P.S. there are many people who have had sex while using a rubber and were infected by AIDS."

That is the dumbest point ever made. Condoms are like 97% effective from stopping STD's. Just because people get HIV while using condoms doesn't mean they should not wear them. That's like saying we shouldn't cross the street because sometimes people die.

Why don't you go locate someone who has been infected that way and ask them how friggen dumb it is. It is a valid point. Wait- it's not a point, it is a fact. Some argue that condoms should be handed out like candy...knock yourself out. Keep in mind it is cruel and dishonest to make people think that they can slap a jimmy-hat on and everything is hunky dory.
In cases in Africa, instead of just showing them how to put on a rubber, they should also try to stop adults from raping babies, children, women and in some cases, men...in the sick, ritualistic way others do, because they think it will cure them of aids. That infects quite a huge number of Africans.

 

[Jo Canadian]

I'd rather take the 3% chance rather than the 100% chance. It's just called common sense, unless you have no concept of probability.

 

[peapod]

Like the rev said, we do not give a rats ass what you believe. But when you try and take your beliefs and force them on society, than we most certainly do have the right to question it.

LadyC until you can go and debate vanni on his challenge, and prove he is wrong, than he and everyone else not only has the right they have the duty to challenge a system of beliefs, especially if they are going to use them to try and shape laws and legislation.

What is ironic is that you will not do that, yet because you get upset we are suppose to stop questioning any belief system that wants to Force their values onto us. Well that is not the way freedom works, and that has nothing to do with thinking.

Tibear the catholic church knew what going on, they hide it, and worse they aided and abetted sexual perverts for years, you don't like it, I don't care, its the truth, and for someone who is always yapping about childern, its a little strange to say the least.

 

[jamie]

Jo Canadian- I'm not saying you shouldn't wrap it up (flash-back from Chapelle Show- anyways), but "educating" others, especially those from such countries as Africa or India who wouldn't know any different than what they are told on the subject, for example, is horrible. It's not fool proof, implying it is to others is deadly.

P.S. your lucky! I can't wait til later this year (hopefully) when I get to go to PEI. I'm in love with that place.
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[peapod"]Like the rev said, we do not give a rats ass what you believe. But when you try and take your beliefs and force them on society, than we most certainly do have the right to question it.

Ditto. Don't think others don't feel the same way about your religion of Secularism. :tongue:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: The Pope Has Passed O

The AIDS programs in Africa that are allowed to promote the use of condoms do say that abstinence and avoiding blood and body fluids is the only 100% safe method, Jamie. The people there aren't stupid and they are given the facts. In places like Uganda it has made a huge difference.

The Pope went to Africa, one of the few places where the Catholic church is growing, and told people not to use condoms. That is completely indefensible.

 

[Jay]

Ditto. Don't think others don't feel the same way about your religion of Secularism. :tongue:

And were supposed to take them seriously.

 

[peapod]

That still does not change the truth or the facts. I am not a sheep, I think for myself and ask questions. You can follow blindly whatever doctine or dogma you like, just don't try to force it on me through laws and legislation. And if you truly wanted to win the hearts and minds, than go and take vanni up on his challenge. Prove he is wrong and I will humbly re-think my postion.

 

[Jay]

I am not a sheep, I think for myself and ask questions.

We all do Pea.

You can follow blindly whatever doctine or dogma you like, just don't try to force it on me through laws and legislation.

How about you lefties quit forcing your socialism on the rest of us, When that happens, I'll take you seriously.

Blindly you say? How do you know this is blind, or are you just making accusations again? Just because you don't have faith Pea, doesn't mean that others don't have reasons to have theirs. Many of those reasons are very personal too. Why do I have to tell you that?

And if you truly wanted to win the hearts and minds, than go and take vanni up on his challenge. Prove he is wrong and I will humbly re-think my postion.

Now who is this vanni that if take his challenge and win I have won your heart?

I had a brief look at this Vanni Challenge thread a while ago, and I respectfully decline to debate the most useless of topics ever. Why my religion is the correct one? Give me a break......It seems that ppl like Vanni and yourself, are more preoccupied by my faith than I am about your atheism, why is that? I thought people like you were convinced it was us trying to convert you…..

 

[tibear]

Pea,

We all know that faith cannot be proven to the satisfaction of secular individuals such as yourself.

It is like the wind or gravity, you can see the effects but you cannot see either the wind or gravity themselves.

I think if you were to look at the effects of the various religions in the world you would find that they are all doing good. Yes, there are some religious fanatics who misinterpret their faith and yes there have been many wars and killing over the years.

However, if we are to look TODAY at all of the faiths of the world and say, "Are these various religions good for our society?" I think that we will all agree that the vast majority of people who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, etc are good people who want to help others and are a positive influence on our society.

The teachings of all of these faiths is to love and respect each other.(Something this forum could use a dose of)

You will point out radicals in various groups that are killing people and before you do, please look up what the senior members of their faith say regarding their actions. You tend to paint a group with a very large brush when one member does evil.

Again, I will say that it is nice to see more and more people starting to back the "respect others" side.

The problem is that when you say things like,

You can follow blindly whatever doctine or dogma you like, just don't try to force it on me through laws and legislation.

You fail to recognize the fact that many of your beliefs are imposed onto others by the current laws and proposed legislations. You can't have it both ways, saying the the right can't legislate morality but the left can.

 

[peapod]

No they are not, you seem to fail to understand that most humans are born with common sense. What is common sense, its the right thing. There is no explanation for it, its just there. So you see I do not need a "religious" belief to be a spiritual person.

 

[Reverend Blair]

We promote legislation based on scientific and rational thought, tibear. You promote legislation based on book of myths. Many of those myths are repugnant, even harmful, in the modern world.

 

[tibear]

Pea,

Children are not born with common sense. They must learn everything that they do.

150 years ago in the southern states, common sense to a white child was that a black child wasn't human but something to be used and abused.

We all learn from our environment and culture. So if we need to learn something, how about the message that virtually every major religion in the world teaches: Love and Respect.

You seem to have a problem with those two basic teachings of the world's religions. Could you explain your problem with them??? Not with radical extremists from various religions who don't follow the teachings but the the fundamental teachings of the various religions.

 

[Jay]

No they are not, you seem to fail to understand that most humans are born with common sense. What is common sense, its the right thing. There is no explanation for it, its just there. So you see I do not need a "religious" belief to be a spiritual person.

A favorite quote of mine from a book called the Denial of Death.

Take stock of those around you and you will ... hear them talk in precise terms about themselves and their surroundings, which would seem to point to them having ideas on the matter. But start to analyze those ideas and you will find that they hardly reflect in any way the reality to which they appear to refer, and if you go deeper you will discover that there is not even an attempt to adjust the ideas to this reality. Quite the contrary; through these notions the individual is trying to cut off any personal vision of reality, of his own very life. For life is at the start a chaos in which one is lost. The individual suspects this, but he is frightened at finding himself face to face with this terrible reality, and tries to cover it with a curtain of fantasy, where everything is clear. It does not worry him that his 'ideas' are not true, he uses them as trenches for the defense of his existence, as scarecrows to frighten away reality."


Jose Ortega y Gasset