The Pope Has Passed On

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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Ya tibear they feel so bad they move the perverts around to other churches so they can have fresh meat to abuse. Stop bullshiting for once.!!!!!
You spit on the men who suffered at the hands of these monsters.
What could be more right than to "owe" up to wrong doing and try to correct it.! This is one thing your pope did that I can admire, he acknowledged what the catholic church did to jews in world war two, and went for reconcilation. Something that should have been done long ago.
Its only the victims and the people that are outraged by what these perverts have done that has even brought any of this to light. Yet there you are with homosexuality which is not and has never been about being a pedophile...Clean up your own house before you start telling other how they should live their lives.
 

JorCON5

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Dec 14, 2004
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I don't really know a lot about the church but if I donated money I would hope it would go to programs that helped people, not to pay for some church officials hotelroom or something like that. The Catholic church has always been wasteful with money (remember Martin Luther's little note).

Perhaps on the small scale there the Priests aren't rich. I just find it funny that a religion based on public servitude and humility has turned into gaudiness. I don't think Jesus and his followers wore fancy clothes and lived in one of the most fancy buildings in the world.


Thank you Rick for the clarification. I thought it was higher but I didn't want to make it seem better than it was.
 

no1important

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Jan 9, 2003
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tibear said:
Pea,

Please find me one quote from the Catholic Church which tried to justify the actions of the abusive priests or those men(and woman) who tried to hide these facts. Just one!!!

There may not be any quotes, but they sure in hell did everything they could to sweep it under the rug.
 

tibear

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2005
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no1, Pea:

How dare you lump all of the hierarchy of the Church as being "in" on the abuse scandals!!!

As I said in earlier posts, as soon as the Pope found out about the abuse, he instructed the American Bishops to get to the bottom of the issue and HE APOLOGIZED to all of the victims. He also stated that there was no room in the clergy for those that attack the innocent.

What else do you want him to do???? Hire a firing squad to kill all of the abusers and those who ignored the issue??? He doesn't have the authority nor does he hold the belief to do such a thing.

Unfortunately, it appears that some people are unable to see some issues with clear eyes. Instead of attacking people(Pea) perhaps you should look at what is written in the posts and find problems with the arguements.

Pea, you've called me a religious zealot many, many times and yet you haven't been able to prove the accusation. The dictionary defines a zealot as a fanatical partisan. I have never quoted scripture to support my arguements, I've never said anyone was going to hell, I've never said that "immoral" people should be jailed or shot. By what definition are you using to call me a zealot???
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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As I said in earlier posts, as soon as the Pope found out about the abuse, he instructed the American Bishops to get to the bottom of the issue and HE APOLOGIZED to all of the victims. He also stated that there was no room in the clergy for those that attack the innocent.

Everybody even peripherally involved in the church knew that abuses went on. It's been known since the middle ages. The Catholic Church, including Pope John Paul II tried to ignore the problem and just let it grow. They didn't act until it became a legal issue and they were forced to deal with it.
 

peapod

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How dare I what???? You little so and so...you would justify the abuse of childern, you who spews your garbage about the right of childern. Oh I forgot that is only when they are a fetus. :roll:

Listen hall monitor...the catholic church did indeed not only hide these people...they MOVED them around so they could continue. They aided and bedded these monsters in destroying the lives of many boys. How dare I? Well I do dare and frankly scarlet if you don't like it, I don't give a dam :wink:
 

tibear

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2005
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RB,

Prove your assertion!

Its easy to say that "everyone knew about it". That simply isn't the case.

It is obvious by your posts that you are completely ignorant of how the Catholic Church is run. The Church is broken into dioceses each with a local bishop. Each local bishop has complete control over his diocese. He must be in union with the Rome and the other bishops with respect to faith and moral teachings but the internal dealing of the diocese is strictly up to the bishop.

The problem is that some bishops did turn a blind eye to what was going on but that is as high as the issue would have gotten in the Church. I guess I did mislead you a bit with my earlier posts because even though the Pope did instruct the American Bishops to get to the bottom of the matter, technically speaking the Pope has no authority to tell the American Bishops to do anything outside of faith and morality teaching.

He was as apalled as the rest of us with respect to the abuse and as a father does with his adult children tried to give them guidance. However, just as adult children has the right to ignore parental advice so do other bishops.

The Pope has a title of "First Among Equals" with respect to fellow bishops, meaning that the Pope has no authority within another bishops diocese. Just as say the premier of Quebec has no right to tell the premier of Ontario or Manitoba how to run their province. Quebec may feel that they have the authority but it doesn't mean they do. Same with the Pope.

Blast the Boston Bishop all you want for trying to move abusive priests around and by all means say all the nasty things you want about the perpetrators of these abuses but don't condemn the people who didn't know anything about it unless you have proof that they knew about it.

As for your assertion that abuse was happening in the Church, I'm sure that some hockey coach somewhere is abusing a player somewhere but that doesn't mean that every hockey organization is to blame when a coach is actually caught.
 

tibear

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2005
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Pea,

Once again you avoid the issue!! It is easy to tell when you feel that you are losing a debate because you always pull out the "rolling eyes".

Childish tactic simply proves your lack of intelligence and debating skills.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: The Pope Has Passed O

I was raised Catholic, tibear. I'm fully aware of how the church works. I'm also fully aware of the whispers that surrounded some priests, the history of the church, and all the rest.
 

tibear

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2005
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RB,

Then I don't understand how you can make assertions that you know are invalid. A priest working in rural Ontario has nothing to do with the Bishop of Rome. Absolutely nothing. He is subject to his personal bishop.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Tibear, don't put yourself through it.

These ppl have no respect for any church.
 

Reverend Blair

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RE: The Pope Has Passed O

the Pope bears ultimate responsibility, tibear. That's the way hierarchical institutions works. To put it another way...A rotten fish stinks from the head down.
 

peapod

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Anglicans did the same thing to natives. Blah! And you can cry to till the cows come home tibear about your hurt feelings, it still does not change the fact that MANY in the catholic church not only knew who these monsters were, they got them counciling and moved them to other places. When in fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what they should have done is called the police! tossed their disquisting asses out of the church and made sure that they did EVERYTHING in their power to bring these perverts to justice. Blah! its so hypotritical I could puke!
 

peapod

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Blah! there so much proof its almost overwheming.

HAYWARD
Church is accused of 'betrayal of trust'
East Bay trial starts in case of alleged abuse of 2 brothers
Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer

Tuesday, March 29, 2005




Roman Catholic Church leaders in the East Bay showed "knowing disregard" for the safety of children by transferring a known pedophile priest from parish to parish in the 1970s, a plaintiffs attorney said Monday at the start of a trial in Hayward that could influence the outcomes of hundreds of similar cases throughout California.

The Diocese of Oakland's failure to control the "compulsive sexual rituals" of the Rev. Robert Ponciroli severely damaged the lives of two former Antioch altar boys, Bob and Tom Thatcher, attorney Rick Simons said in his opening statement.

"This betrayal of trust took away their faith," Simons told the jury.

The Thatcher brothers, who served as altar boys under Ponciroli at St. Ignatius Catholic Church in Antioch, are seeking unspecified damages against Bishop Allen Vigneron, the current leader of Roman Catholics in Alameda and Contra Costa counties.

Their lawsuit is the second case to face a jury among hundreds of lawsuits filed against Catholic dioceses across California. The suits were made possible under a 2002 state law that temporarily lifted the statute of limitations on damages claims against organizations that gave known child molesters access to more victims.

Last week, a San Francisco jury issued a $437,000 verdict against the Archdiocese of San Francisco in the first of those abuse claims to reach a jury.

Over the weekend, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Stockton reportedly agreed to pay $3.6 million to settle claims by two victims molested by a Lodi priest who was later deported to Ireland.

The two unidentified victims are now in their 40s. They were 11 and 12 years old when they were molested by the Rev. Oliver O'Grady at St. Anne's Catholic Church in Lodi.

O'Grady was convicted in 1993 of molesting the boys and served seven years in prison before he was deported.

The Thatcher case now under way in Hayward could be particularly costly for the church because the judge in that case, Alameda County Superior Court Judge Allen Sheppard, has allowed the jury to consider awarding punitive damages to Bob Thatcher.

Church attorney Allen Ruby told the jury in his opening statement Monday that the Diocese of Oakland admitted it was negligent in its supervision of Ponciroli. At issue, he said, is what amount of money constitutes "reasonable damages" to compensate the Thatcher brothers and whether Bob Thatcher should be awarded punitive damages.

"No excuses," Ruby said. "There is no excuse for what happened to Bob Thatcher or Tom Thatcher.''

But Ruby said Bishops Vigneron and John Cummins, who preceded him, had offered repeated public apologies and put strict new policies in place to protect children. Ruby said the most recent child abuse accusation against the diocese concerned an incident that allegedly occurred in 1989.

The Thatcher brothers' case appears to be particularly strong because of a May 22, 1975, memo written by then-Oakland Bishop Floyd Begin.

In the memo, marked "confidential" and "to myself," Begin cites suspicions that Ponciroli was "too free with boys, especially altar boys" at St. Cornelius parish in Richmond.

It says the parents of a seventh-grade boy complained to church officials after their son said Ponciroli "took down my pants, touched my privates."

The memo also states that one group of boys at St. Cornelius presented a petition to their pastor in which they complained that Ponciroli was "weird" and "queer" and "has a habit of putting his hands where they don't belong."

Two months later, in July 1975, Begin transferred Ponciroli to Our Lady of Grace parish in Castro Valley. Begin died in 1977 and was replaced by Cummins, who appointed Ponciroli as the founding pastor of St. Ignatius parish in Antioch.

In court Monday, Simons showed the jury enlarged copies of three incriminating church documents, along with giant color photos of the Thatcher brothers at age 8 and 10, when the abuse allegedly occurred.

Among Simons' witnesses was Bradley Hardgrove, another former altar boy. Hardgrove testified that he and his best friend had circulated the petition at St. Cornelius parish, which was signed by seven or eight altar boys and presented to the pastor who supervised Ponciroli at the Richmond church.

Ponciroli, known to the altar boys as "Father Bob," was a sexually abusive, obese man with a quick temper, Hardgrove said.

"He'd yell at you," Hardgrove said. "He was a big man. We were little kids.''

Another of Simons' witnesses, Antioch police detective Mary Hooker, testified that Ponciroli admitted in a taped telephone conversation that he was "a sick puppy" and "sex addict."

"He said a lot of people trusted him, and he did a lot of damage,'' Hooker said.

Ponciroli, 68, has been removed from public ministry. He faced criminal molestation charges until the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in July 2003 that a separate law retroactively extending the statute of limitations in criminal cases was unconstitutional.

Bob Thatcher, 34, now lives in Arizona. His brother Tom, 33, resides in Florida.

Vigneron, who sat through all of Monday's testimony, told reporters during a break that "the whole record of abuse brings great shame" upon the church.

"I want to make sure I do my part to make sure this doesn't happen again, '' he said.

Testimony in the trial, which could last a month, was scheduled to continue today.

associated press
 

Judland

Electoral Member
peapod said:
Clean up your own house before you start telling other how they should live their lives.

There are a lot of injustices that happen in this world; many of them, we (individually and as a society) know about and consciously allow to continue, "sweeping them under the rug," so to speak.

Fortunately, we can sit here at our computers, detached from the world outside, and pass judgement on others and how they handle these situations.

None of this, however, is helping the situation.

I was raised a Catholic myself. Although, I'll admit it's been quite sometime since I last attended a mass. The one rule of life I try to practise, which I'll bring up here, is "he who is without sin may cast the first stone."

Does anyone in this group really believe they have the right to cast that stone?

It's easy to point out flaws. But it's a real gift to be able to fix them. Maybe, instead of insulting one another, we should be discussing how we can help correct the wrongs being done in this world.

Could the Pope have done more to correct the wrongs being done in the Church? Perhaps. But maybe the question should be: could YOU have done something more to help correct the wrongs being done in the Church? If you (and I) really wanted to, yes, I think so.

As a civilization, we are ALL responsible for what happens in this world.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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"Does anyone in this group really believe they have the right to cast that stone? "


I believe Pea believes she does.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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Does anyone in this group really believe they have the right to cast that stone?

I've never raped a child (or an adult for that matter) and I've never covered up for anybody who has. I've never told people not to use rubbers during an AIDS epidemic. I've never suggested that people who are living on the bare edge of survival not use birth control.
 

Judland

Electoral Member
Reverend Blair said:
I've never raped a child (or an adult for that matter) and I've never covered up for anybody who has. I've never told people not to use rubbers during an AIDS epidemic. I've never suggested that people who are living on the bare edge of survival not use birth control.

I'm not saying that anyone here has. That's not the message I am trying to convey.

But, in reply to your response.... the next question is, what have you done to help the situation?

By the way, this is more a rhetorical question. I'm not interested in justification, I'm just trying to convey a thought, here.
 

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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Cast stones...what else could you expect from Jay????? Did I cast a stone or did I simply put the truth out there. Oh I see we are suppose to pretend that none of this ever happened...Why???? because it was done by priests! Blah! they are no better than anyone other citizen on the planet, except of course.....they are put in a postion of trust after all its the work of god they do right???
And as for doing my bit...well my friend you have barked up the wrong tree on that one...in fact I would say I must be one of the few people on this island that the individual in charge of all crown councils on this island have to visit and explain his position to me. This is what happens when you speak out and won't shut up about an injustice. Of course mine had to do with a teacher and his molesting of at least 8 boys, one who I KNOW very well. I Do not close my eyes or mouth to injustice.

Most of all what really makes me sick, is these wackos having the nerve to call homosexuality a sin, but hey a pedophile, which is not a HOMOSEXUAL, you can hide and let them carry on with their "work". You think this stuff was just random, well you are wrong there are hundred and hundred of cases like that I posted up there. Take an example from your pope and make right what was clearly a wrong, especially from those that claim they have a "higher moral ground."
 

Judland

Electoral Member
So, my question is: what is your solution to this problem? How do we proceed? Post on this forum that the Pope is a wacko once more? Insult another member of the forum because of their beliefs?

...these wackos having the nerve to call homosexuality a sin...

I thank you for making the information in your previous posts known. It is clear that you do not hold the Catholic church in high regard. But where's this all leading?

I suppose, if this thread has turned into one long rant, then there's not much I can contribute to benefit anyone.