The myth of Canada's culturally and linguistically united past.

[Machjo]

Often we read posts about how Canada has become too multicultural. Yet in reality, Canada is far more linguistically and culturally united today than it's been at any time in its history. Sure about 15% of Nunavummiut still can't speak English or French today. Sure bout 57% of Quebecers still can't speak English today. But let's not forget that a hundred years ago the percentage would likely have been much higher. Also, consider that most immigrants to have to pass language tests, unlike native-born Canadians, so quite honestly you could function in even the most multicultural parts of Toronto today in English with no problem, yet would have difficulties in many parts of Quebec or Nunavut where immigrants are few.

Even on the West Coast it was common up until the 1920s for English, French, Chinese, Hawaiians, and local indigenous peoples to have to learn Chinuk Wawa or its sister dialect Kamloops Wawa in certain industries. And if we go back 200 years, there were 30 odd language communities with no common language there.

So I really would be curious to know where Canadians get this idea that we are less linguistically and culturally united today than we've ever been in the past when if anything the exact opposite is true.

 

[taxslave]

Go to Vancouver. It is now known by locals as Hongcouver. And they do not even try to fit in.

 

[Machjo]

Go to Vancouver. It is now known by locals as Hongcouver. And they do not even try to fit in.

Yes, I'd visited Vancouver before, and sure there are some who don't know English (and they shouldn't be here), but all their children do know English, so it's not that bad. A hundred years ago, even native English speakers had to learn Wawa in order to function in some industries! That's not the case in Vancouver today where for the most part it's the Chinese who have to learn English or be marginalized.

In the mid to late 1800s, it would not have been out of place for a Chinese, a French Canadian, an English Canadian, a Hawaiian trader, or local indigenous person to speak to one another in Wawa even if it wasn't any of their mother tongues. Today, it's pretty clear that a Chinese and a Japanese in Vancouver would have to learn English, not Wawa, to communicate with one another. Looking at it that way, the lingua franca is now established as English through most of Canada today. Again, in the early 1800s, that would not have been the case in BC, whereby English would be used mostly only among native English-speakers and those living in the major cities.

 

[Trotz]

Looks like Machjo is quickly becoming that residential internationalist, which every political forum has at least one, who claims to be the moderate even though his views run contrary to everyone else. Almost like an annoying uncle at a family BBQ: "No Machjo, I don't care to hear your opinion on the injustices first nations people of Northern British Columbia had to face in 1872. I asked if you just wanted a steak and a hotdog?"


Regardless, I don't think your point is true at all regarding British Columbia. This may had been true in the 1810s among Fur Traders, but English had always been the dominant language in Victoria, which was both the economic and naval hub in British Columbia until the CPR allowed Vancouver to overtake it.

And on the Prairie side of my family, including the Great Great Grandfather who was alive until 1952, it was made quite clear through family memoirs and writings that no one spoke First Nation languages but English and German were the primary economic languages (nowadays, it's just English).

I think in regards to the original point, I can see you being correct about French in Quebec and even Ontario, but that's no reason to justify state bilangualism of French in Western Canada.

 

[lone wolf]

Why in hell do I keep hearing: 'for service in English, press 1'...?

 

[Johnnny]

So I really would be curious to know where Canadians get this idea that we are less linguistically and culturally united today than we've ever been in the past when if anything the exact opposite is true.

du da du da du da.... winner gagnon

now who knows where thats from? And it aint quebec :lol:

were alright

 

[taxslave]

Yes, I'd visited Vancouver before, and sure there are some who don't know English (and they shouldn't be here), but all their children do know English, so it's not that bad. A hundred years ago, even native English speakers had to learn Wawa in order to function in some industries! That's not the case in Vancouver today where for the most part it's the Chinese who have to learn English or be marginalized.

In the mid to late 1800s, it would not have been out of place for a Chinese, a French Canadian, an English Canadian, a Hawaiian trader, or local indigenous person to speak to one another in Wawa even if it wasn't any of their mother tongues. Today, it's pretty clear that a Chinese and a Japanese in Vancouver would have to learn English, not Wawa, to communicate with one another. Looking at it that way, the lingua franca is now established as English through most of Canada today. Again, in the early 1800s, that would not have been the case in BC, whereby English would be used mostly only among native English-speakers and those living in the major cities.

Wawa ? On the coast it is either Salish or Kwakitul. Unless one went north of Pr. Rupert where Tinglit or Russian was spoken.I have a book hiding around here somewhere that I inherited that has the trade lingo used in B.C. in the 1800s. The only word I remember is "Cultus", which means worthless. Which is what multiculturalism is.

 

[Colpy]

Often we read posts about how Canada has become too multicultural. Yet in reality, Canada is far more linguistically and culturally united today than it's been at any time in its history. Sure about 15% of Nunavummiut still can't speak English or French today. Sure bout 57% of Quebecers still can't speak English today. But let's not forget that a hundred years ago the percentage would likely have been much higher. Also, consider that most immigrants to have to pass language tests, unlike native-born Canadians, so quite honestly you could function in even the most multicultural parts of Toronto today in English with no problem, yet would have difficulties in many parts of Quebec or Nunavut where immigrants are few.

Even on the West Coast it was common up until the 1920s for English, French, Chinese, Hawaiians, and local indigenous peoples to have to learn Chinuk Wawa or its sister dialect Kamloops Wawa in certain industries. And if we go back 200 years, there were 30 odd language communities with no common language there.

So I really would be curious to know where Canadians get this idea that we are less linguistically and culturally united today than we've ever been in the past when if anything the exact opposite is true.

Oh for cryin' out loud! This is a nation of immigrants........and a great one. But you are missing the point.

One hundred years ago;

If an immigrant demanded to wear a mask in court, they would be jailed for contempt.

If immigrants held rallies against our allies and in support of our enemies, if they were lucky, they would just get ridden down, clubbed, and deported.

If immigrants were suspected of spying, of industrial espionage, they would be arrested, tried, and publically hanged.

If an immigrant demanded their children not eat with other religions at school.......they would be laughed at.

If an immigrant demanded the right to carry a weapon amongst a disarmed people, they would be jailed.

That is because we used to know who we were, and we were confident in our own skins, and brooked no stupidity from anyone who came here to take advantage of our SUPERIOR society. If it was not superior.....why did they come????

Now they come to our society, and want to drag it down to the level of the cesspits they left.

It is absolutely disgraceful.

 

[china]

Machjo

fej
chang
how
Happy New Year

 

[TenPenny]

Oh for cryin' out loud! This is a nation of immigrants........and a great one. But you are missing the point.

One hundred years ago;

If an immigrant demanded to wear a mask in court, they would be jailed for contempt.

If immigrants held rallies against our allies and in support of our enemies, if they were lucky, they would just get ridden down, clubbed, and deported.

If immigrants were suspected of spying, of industrial espionage, they would be arrested, tried, and publically hanged.

If an immigrant demanded their children not eat with other religions at school.......they would be laughed at.

If an immigrant demanded the right to carry a weapon amongst a disarmed people, they would be jailed.

That is because we used to know who we were, and we were confident in our own skins, and brooked no stupidity from anyone who came here to take advantage of our SUPERIOR society. If it was not superior.....why did they come????

Now they come to our society, and want to drag it down to the level of the cesspits they left.

It is absolutely disgraceful.

Oh, how I long for the days when all the bars had signs that said 'No dogs or Irish allowed'.

 

[Machjo]

Oh for cryin' out loud! This is a nation of immigrants........and a great one. But you are missing the point.

One hundred years ago;

If an immigrant demanded to wear a mask in court, they would be jailed for contempt.

If immigrants held rallies against our allies and in support of our enemies, if they were lucky, they would just get ridden down, clubbed, and deported.

If immigrants were suspected of spying, of industrial espionage, they would be arrested, tried, and publically hanged.

If an immigrant demanded their children not eat with other religions at school.......they would be laughed at.

If an immigrant demanded the right to carry a weapon amongst a disarmed people, they would be jailed.

That is because we used to know who we were, and we were confident in our own skins, and brooked no stupidity from anyone who came here to take advantage of our SUPERIOR society. If it was not superior.....why did they come????

Now they come to our society, and want to drag it down to the level of the cesspits they left.

It is absolutely disgraceful.

And in WWI, Ukrainian Canadians were all jailed as enemy aliens to do forced labour for the profit of the jailers. So it woudl seem you're wrong about your claims about deportation. They were used as profitable forced labour instead, just for belonging to the wrong ethnic group.

About 90 years ago, a head was placed on the Chinese, not all immigrants of course, but specifically the Chinese.

In WWII, Japanese Canadians had their property confiscated and they were all interned.

About 60 years ago, Inuit were forcibly relocated to fight the cold war.

Up until about 30 years ago, PROFUNC was a secret government plan to intern Canadians who identified themselves as communists. I don't believe in communism myself, but whatever happened to freedom of belief?

Up until about 50 years ago, forced residential schools where children were raped, beaten, and even killed were still in operation.

The beliefs that contributed to these acts are the exact same beliefs that contributed to the acts you'd just mentioned.

Why do you think Canada is culturally more united today than it was before? Simple answer! We stamped out other cultures, especially the First Nations, quite violently.

So it shouldn't be too surprising that the actions you describe would have been considered quite mild back then.

Oh, how I long for the days when all the bars had signs that said 'No dogs or Irish allowed'.

I thought it was 'No dogs and Chinese allowed'?

Oh, and what about 'Speak White':

YouTube - Michèle Lalonde - Speak White - Notre Poésie 1970

I love this poem. And this was only in the 1970s, not that long ago.

It's a bilingual poem by the way, so you should understand at least some of it. She also mentions many English poets, pronouncing them in French, but you'll progably pick up on it. She mentions a few famous Quebec poets too, so if you're familiar with Canadian poetry, you'll probably pick it up too.

Actually, forget the 1970's. I remember a friend who told me how he'd been told to 'Speak White' just a few years ago in Gatineau of all places.

Machjo

fej
chang
how
Happy New Year

Ni de xin nian hao ma?

Wawa ? On the coast it is either Salish or Kwakitul. Unless one went north of Pr. Rupert where Tinglit or Russian was spoken.I have a book hiding around here somewhere that I inherited that has the trade lingo used in B.C. in the 1800s. The only word I remember is "Cultus", which means worthless. Which is what multiculturalism is.

Wawa was the native language of very few. It had developed as a trade language, beginning in Oregon but, owing to the many different languages of the region and the simplicity of this trade language, it had quickly spread as a common language among many. Here's what its status was in 1890:

An international idiom : a manual of the Oregon trade language, or "Chinook jargon"

You can read much more here:

Internet Archive Search: chinook jargon

Though I should point out that Chinuk Wawa is a more recent name of the language. At that time it was usually called, in English, 'Chinook Jargon', and in Chinuk or Kamloops Wawa, either Lelang (probably from French 'La langue), or just Wawa (meaning speech in the original Chinuk language, not to be confused with Chinook Jargon, an interlanguage spoken by few as a first language except perhaps those born to international families int eh region at the time).

The first video I posted just above was recited by the original poet. Here is another rendition that I also like of the same poem by another reciter:

YouTube - Moulin à Paroles - Speak White

The original recitation is much better though, especially seeing that it was memorized unlike this one.

 

[Colpy]

Oh spare me the pap! Mushy, brain-dead apologetic non-specific guilt is what got us in this sorry position in the first place.

Here's a bulletin for you.....every nation on earth holds enemy aliens in a time of war. It is only sensible. What was bad about the Japanese internment in World War Two was that we put away second and third generation CANADIANS of Japanese descent.......and we failed to release them, and we kept up punitive measures for years, and we failed to compensate those unjustly held for seized property........

BTW, in eastern Canada we had camps where German ex-pats from Britain were held.....many of them Jews that fled Germany before the war. SOP.

Now, when somebody from the Punjab, or Sri Lanka, or Yemen, or God knows where finds their way to the shores of Canada....I ask you once again....why did they come?

Why???

And I will answer.....they come because we are a rich nation, and a free one, where they can live without fear of persecution or attack, or tribal war, or famine, or racial attack......etc.......because here we have in the western capitalist democracy a society that is at the absolute pinnacle of human development.........never have so many been so rich and so free........and I am damned proud of that, and I absolutely refuse to kiss anyone's arse because of some insult delivered by my Great Grandpa...maybe.

Now....the greatness of that society rests on freedom......the equality of all before the law..........

So when you come from some hell-hole like Somalia, and you expect special consideration in being able to force your wife (or wives, God forbid) to wear a tent in public, when you think multicultural toleration allows you to mutilate your daughters, or you have the mindset that they can be murdered if they defy you....we have then FAILED.

When you demand the right to be masked in court............and receive it, we have FAILED.

When you come from the Punjab, and are allowed to carry weapons, while our English common law right to bear arms is denied, we have FAILED.

When you go to our schools, and demand and receive special considerations that hold your children apart from mine, we have FAILED.

When the State hauls people into quasi-courts on charges that amount to insulting Islam, we have FAILED in a colossal fashion.

It used to be that people came wanting to be Canadian........and welcome to them, no matter what their race, language, ethnicity........

But immigrants must adapt to OUR ways. It is OUR way that made us great, to accomodate and change our way is to make us less great, to subvert our own society.

Who said this? Liberals are like lemmings, just not as cute.....

Ann Coulter?

 

[TenPenny]

I thought it was 'No dogs and Chinese allowed'?

Not in New Brunswick and New England.

\

 

[Machjo]

Oh spare me the pap! Mushy, brain-dead apologetic non-specific guilt is what got us in this sorry position in the first place.

Here's a bulletin for you.....every nation on earth holds enemy aliens in a time of war. It is only sensible. What was bad about the Japanese internment in World War Two was that we put away second and third generation CANADIANS of Japanese descent.......and we failed to release them, and we kept up punitive measures for years, and we failed to compensate those unjustly held for seized property........

BTW, in eastern Canada we had camps where German ex-pats from Britain were held.....many of them Jews that fled Germany before the war. SOP.

Now, when somebody from the Punjab, or Sri Lanka, or Yemen, or God knows where finds their way to the shores of Canada....I ask you once again....why did they come?

Why???

And I will answer.....they come because we are a rich nation, and a free one, where they can live without fear of persecution or attack, or tribal war, or famine, or racial attack......etc.......because here we have in the western capitalist democracy a society that is at the absolute pinnacle of human development.........never have so many been so rich and so free........and I am damned proud of that, and I absolutely refuse to kiss anyone's arse because of some insult delivered by my Great Grandpa...maybe.

Now....the greatness of that society rests on freedom......the equality of all before the law..........

So when you come from some hell-hole like Somalia, and you expect special consideration in being able to force your wife (or wives, God forbid) to wear a tent in public, when you think multicultural toleration allows you to mutilate your daughters, or you have the mindset that they can be murdered if they defy you....we have then FAILED.

When you demand the right to be masked in court............and receive it, we have FAILED.

When you come from the Punjab, and are allowed to carry weapons, while our English common law right to bear arms is denied, we have FAILED.

When you go to our schools, and demand and receive special considerations that hold your children apart from mine, we have FAILED.

When the State hauls people into quasi-courts on charges that amount to insulting Islam, we have FAILED in a colossal fashion.

It used to be that people came wanting to be Canadian........and welcome to them, no matter what their race, language, ethnicity........

But immigrants must adapt to OUR ways. It is OUR way that made us great, to accomodate and change our way is to make us less great, to subvert our own society.

Who said this? Liberals are like lemmings, just not as cute.....

Ann Coulter?

I agree with some of what you say with regards to today. However, from a historical perspective, I'd say nothing's changed. Today we need to fight against religious fanatics trying to impose their Faith on others. Back then, others had to fight against the French and then the English imposing their ethnic traditions on others, a legacy we continue to see today with statutory holidays imposing English, French, and Christian ethnic and religious holidays on the population, and English and French on each other, etc. it's a matter of everyone trying to impose their will on everyone else. While I certainly agree with protecting the population from people trying to impose their Faith on them, that ought to go in all directions. First off, scrap any official statutory holiday of a religious or ethnic nature, and secondly scrap all official language laws. After all, neither the US nor the UK have official languages at the national level and they seem to be doing just fine. Why are we Canadians so intent on using the strong arm of the law to impose this or that ethnic or religious tradition. I'm not the greatest fan of the contemporary US, but I must say that they had got it far more right than we had when they'd made it clear that the government was not to impose any religious laws (compared to our separate school system in the BNA, still law today and absolutely shameful). The US Constitution also has no official language. Sure individual states might have their official languages, but not at the federal level. That could solve so many problems for Canada too. Again, I hate to say this, but varring contemporary America, the US sure as hell had it right with their Bill of Rights.

 

[Colpy]

I agree with some of what you say with regards to today. However, from a historical perspective, I'd say nothing's changed. Today we need to fight against religious fanatics trying to impose their Faith on others. Back then, others had to fight against the French and then the English imposing their ethnic traditions on others, a legacy we continue to see today with statutory holidays imposing English, French, and Christian ethnic and religious holidays on the population, and English and French on each other, etc. it's a matter of everyone trying to impose their will on everyone else. While I certainly agree with protecting the population from people trying to impose their Faith on them, that ought to go in all directions. First off, scrap any official statutory holiday of a religious or ethnic nature, and secondly scrap all official language laws. After all, neither the US nor the UK have official languages at the national level and they seem to be doing just fine. Why are we Canadians so intent on using the strong arm of the law to impose this or that ethnic or religious tradition. I'm not the greatest fan of the contemporary US, but I must say that they had got it far more right than we had when they'd made it clear that the government was not to impose any religious laws (compared to our separate school system in the BNA, still law today and absolutely shameful). The US Constitution also has no official language. Sure individual states might have their official languages, but not at the federal level. That could solve so many problems for Canada too. Again, I hate to say this, but varring contemporary America, the US sure as hell had it right with their Bill of Rights.

You still don't get it.

British, French and Christian cultural traditions ARE what made us great. And we should be chauvanistic in the defense of same.

 

[captain morgan]

And in WWI, Ukrainian Canadians were all jailed as enemy aliens to do forced labour for the profit of the jailers. So it woudl seem you're wrong about your claims about deportation. They were used as profitable forced labour instead, just for belonging to the wrong ethnic group.

About 90 years ago, a head was placed on the Chinese, not all immigrants of course, but specifically the Chinese.

In WWII, Japanese Canadians had their property confiscated and they were all interned.

About 60 years ago, Inuit were forcibly relocated to fight the cold war.

Up until about 30 years ago, PROFUNC was a secret government plan to intern Canadians who identified themselves as communists. I don't believe in communism myself, but whatever happened to freedom of belief?

Up until about 50 years ago, forced residential schools where children were raped, beaten, and even killed were still in operation.

.... And, and, and when I was a kid, Billy Tatum pushed down little Jimmy Wilkinson and took his lunch money?!... Oh, the humanity!

Why do you think Canada is culturally more united today than it was before? Simple answer! We stamped out other cultures, especially the First Nations, quite violently.

Where did the first of the First Nations come from Machjo?... I'm guessing that you don't believe that they grew out of the ground right next to a spruce tree, so it goes to logic that they came from somewhere.

So, with that in mind, who did they displace? Was it done 'humanely'? Did they respect and promote the cultures of those that they impacted?

 

[Trotz]

Machjo,
there is no "we".

Enough of this reverse racism that "all white people are the same:".

Ottawa was hostile to anyone in the country who was not British. The Canadian Government, between the 1880s and 1950s, only allowed immigrants from Germany and Austro-Hungary (including the Ukrainians and other Slavic minorities) because they wanted industrial expertise and in the Ukrainian's case winter wheat farming.

Notice how quick Winnipeg, full of "inferior Germans and Slavs", quickly became the industrial hub of Canada during this period?

Even then, the official policy called for immigrants of English and Scottish policy but this was only slightly modified, to allow in the Germans and Austro-Hungarians, because of fear that America might annex the Prairies and there were not enough British coming in to settle the Prairies.

Ottawa's treatment of those German and Austro-Hungarian immigrants weren't any better. I know, because my mother went to school in Northern Manitoba during the 1950s and it was quite common for Englishmen and Scotsmen from Ontario to beat children with rulers and paddles. Sexual abuse probably did happen too much but, as the 1950s were, reports were probably dismissed or it would had brought shame to the household and the individual (no one then would had married someone who was known to have been raped as a child).

So enough of this bull**** that my ancestors were running around in First Nations' reserves, "forcing da white man's way", when they themselves (much like other immigrants on the Prairies) were subjected to similar conditions - enough of the hypocrisy!

 

[Corduroy]

Yes, I'd visited Vancouver before, and sure there are some who don't know English (and they shouldn't be here)

Because they don't know English?

 

[JLM]

Not in New Brunswick and New England.

\

Wouldn't be on account of their propensity for drinking would it? :smile:

 

[relic]

I was listening to the radio this morning as I picked dead fish and these "new Canadians"were whining that the notice about school closings were not given in their particular language. Boo Hoo should have learned english before you came here !!! I don't care what colour you are but like the old t shirt used to say "spesk english or get the F out !"