The minute you think it's safe to change lanes.

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Sep 06, 2007 11:50 AM
Richard Brennan
Staff Reporter


Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory scrambled today to downplay his policy of funding religious schools and the controversies surrounding it.
“It represents a quarter of a page in a 52-page document,” he said defensively as he neared the end of his first week of campaigning for the Oct. 10 provincial election.

Tory was still smarting from telling reporters yesterday that Christian schools would still be able to teach creationism even if they got funding, which feeds into fears these schools will still teach whatever they want, despite Tory’s assurance they will have to teach the provincial curriculum in order to get the funding.

Creationism is controversial in that it is the view that all things on earth were created directly by God, as described in the Book of Genesis.

Tory, who said today he believes in evolution, issued a clarification yesterday stating that his proposal would allow creationism to be discussed only as part of religious studies, as is now the case in Ontario’s publicly-funded Catholic schools, and not in science class.

Tory said today he understands that funding religious schools with public money is controversial and that he will have to chose his words more carefully.

He added that while the media seems to be obsessed with his faith-based school funding proposal, most people, according to him, are concerned about taxes, community safety and other things.

“I know some people raised the schools issues … but I will tell you that many issues are being raised in many different contexts by voters and that a big part of what people are talking about is Mr. McGuinty’s broken promises, his disrespect for taxpayers and the struggles they are having and issues like community safety.”

Tory attempted to change the channel today with an attack on the governing Liberals’ “reckless spending.”

“I am here today discussing scandalous waste in government and scandalous lack of accountability for taxpayers’ money,” he said.

The Conservative leader attacked Premier Dalton McGuinty’s “irresponsible” spending and secret slush fund, saying it has robbed the province of money for badly needed programs such as health and education.

“At a time when so many urgent public needs go without, a time when many taxpayers can barely afford to keep up with the cost of living, it is appalling that Dalton McGuinty always seems to have a few million extras dollars lying around to hand out to his friends,” he told reporters today.

The Liberals were slammed by opposition parties and Ontario's auditor general for handing out $32 million to over 100 multicultural groups -- many with Liberal ties -- with no formal application process or formal controls over the last two years.

Tory has accused the Liberals of $2.7 billion in “undocumented year-end spending."
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Sorry was that a 5 billion dollar deficit these jokers left the public after the last election? Now he wants to get everyone to pay for alsorts of kooky mumbo jumbo schools to teach kids what they should be taught in their own homes and by already tax exempt places of worship?

Idiot!
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

Satelitte Radio Addict
May 28, 2007
15,286
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Toronto, ON
I don't like this plan at all. We should also revoke all funding for the Catholics as well. Public education should be public education.

Of course, if its a MsQuinty-like promise it won't mean squat come the day after the election.
 

Philo Cojones

New Member
Aug 28, 2007
33
2
8
agreeing with doug about the funding. I don't see why my taxes are going to pay for religious teachings i don't beleive in.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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bliss
I don't get the worry... mind you, I suppose there may be some Christian school which are different, but when I attended Catholic school, we were taught the creation story in religion class, and about evolution in science class. The rest was left to us to decide for ourselves.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
It's not so much the creation/evolution thing as it is the funding for all these different schools. Kids can sort it out - but if the roof's leaking or the paint's peeling or the computers are all out of date because the money's all got to be split among four or five different Boards and yours happens to be the oldest building (the Public School System) how easy do the lessons come?

Wolf
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
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bliss
I had kind of focused on Unf's highlighting, which strictly pertained to issues of evolutionism/creationism.

As for funding, everywhere I've ever lived with a dual system has had you declare where your taxes go... public or a seperate school. That seems a fair enough system to me.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
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California
Separation of education from religious teaching should be the choice of the family of course

Religious teaching can be accomplished after school and/or on weekend studies, but to incorporate them in a publicly funded school system is baiting the bear for controversy.

Children are inclined to soak up many beliefs and if they are to be indoctinated through exposure to
one only religious teaching along with their education, I see this as limiting their learning abilities
restricting them from exploration the many facets of religious studies along with other non-inclusive
studies which should be taught outside the public classroom setting.

Comparative general religious studies as taught through classroom formulae of covering as many religious groups as possible, can be incorporated into many social programs, but not limiting to one
religious study - as dictated by the school itself unless it is a self-governing, self-funding education/religious school.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,666
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Northern Ontario,
And where I live it's a single board controlling the (so far) two systems allocating the money according to your choice when you pay property taxes..the half hour or so a day that they would teach the kids about their own religion doesn't bother me as long as they properly teach them according to the provincial curriculum the rest of the day......
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
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bliss
there's a difference between public funded, whereby all schools are given equal cuts of tax dollars, and participant funded, whereby the schools are given a cut according to enrollment and the support of tax payers who decide where their money should go.

If I decide I want my kids homeschooled, then my tax dollars are funnelled into supporting my choice. I am entitled to moneys for texts, standardised testing, and even entitled to money to enroll my kids in a few extracurriculars.

The decision to put your kids into a seperate school should be no different.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
Once upon a time, you had eight kids who all went to one school. Every kid paid a buck for the lessons. Schoolmarm got two bucks and there was six bucks left to fix the roof. One day a new preacher came into town and said all the kids of my faith have to learn with their own. Now, the kids saw they were different. Attendance was cut in half, there were two schoolmarms - and only two bucks left to fix the roof. One day one of the parents heard a kid use a word that wasn't of the tongue spoke at home. My kids deserve to learn in their own language. Now, there were three schoolmarms and not enough money to fix the roof at the old school. Then came the day someone spoke like a sinner. Another school marm was hired. Another roof leaked. Then, the rich kid had his shirt spoiled by a leak in the old school's roof. Daddy bought him a private school. Eight kids, who were once friends, suddenly realized they didn't know each other any more. They couldn't play together.

Wolf
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
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bliss
Once upon a time, you had eight kids who all went to one school. Every kid paid a buck for the lessons. Schoolmarm got two bucks and there was six bucks left to fix the roof. One day a new preacher came into town and said all the kids of my faith have to learn with their own. Now, the kids saw they were different. Attendance was cut in half, there were two schoolmarms - and only two bucks left to fix the roof. One day one of the parents heard a kid use a word that wasn't of the tongue spoke at home. My kids deserve to learn in their own language. Now, there were three schoolmarms and not enough money to fix the roof at the old school. Then came the day someone spoke like a sinner. Another school marm was hired. Another roof leaked. Then, the rich kid had his shirt spoiled by a leak in the old school's roof. Daddy bought him a private school. Eight kids, who were once friends, suddenly realized they didn't know each other any more. They couldn't play together.

Wolf

And that makes total sense if you only have eight kids in a town to go to school.

Fort St John was a prime example... not enough kids to fund a Catholic school, so, no Catholic school. But rarely are there only 8 (figuratively speaking) children.

And on a side note... my kids play with 7 other children in our neighborhood, and none of them attend the same schools. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school?
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
212
63
In the bush near Sudbury
It's not a literal story.... What kid gets away with a buck for lessons? The point is, you can have one or two good teaching facilities, or a lot of mediocre ones. Look at our kids' academic scores in comparison to the rest of the world. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school? Twenty-five years ago, my wife and I opened our home to kids in need of short-term emergency placement. Karrie ... I would not EVER want to be that sort of person....

Wolf
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
It's not a literal story.... What kid gets away with a buck for lessons? The point is, you can have one or two good teaching facilities, or a lot of mediocre ones. Look at our kids' academic scores in comparison to the rest of the world. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school? Twenty-five years ago, my wife and I opened our home to kids in need of short-term emergency placement. Karrie ... I would not EVER want to be that sort of person....

Wolf

You seem to be assuming that a fancy infrastructure and large building make a good school.

I'd rather my kids were in a smaller school, where all the teachers are familiar with the students, than in a shiny spanky new building with so many classes that teachers can only possibly have time to remember a quarter of the faces that roam their hallways.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
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Not to mention that there are standards for schools. You must have somethings in order to teach children and this will take away money from the already shy of funding public system. A building is a building and it costs what it costs to operate that building no matter if it's full or nearly empty.

They have been closing schools here in Ontario to consolidate buildings and keep them closer to full, even if that means busing kids all over to school and ending a central meeting facility in a community.

Not to mention, this also allows for any religion to claim a percentage of funding regardless of the religion they teach. What if it happens to be some thing not so acceptable to our "western" morals and traditions? How much argument and fighting will that cause among people of various groups who find ways to control the board?

There is no reason that all religions can't be taught in religious studies courses if that is what is needed. But I think there is a different agenda at work here and that is to get school to teach religion to students, not about religion, religion.

And Tory being the power hungry freak he is, stumbled into an old and clearly marked trap that everyone else knows enough to steer clear of.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
212
63
In the bush near Sudbury
You seem to be assuming that a fancy infrastructure and large building make a good school.

I'd rather my kids were in a smaller school, where all the teachers are familiar with the students, than in a shiny spanky new building with so many classes that teachers can only possibly have time to remember a quarter of the faces that roam their hallways.

Infrastructure and a large building have nothing to do with it. My best learning was done at a two-room school in Kirkfield Ontario. The difference was in teachers who cared about the kids, teachers who took the time to teach - individually if need be, and teachers who treated that kid like a human. When there's lots of openings, you don't have the quality of teacher. Unionization further waters it down because the teacher knows the job is safe. Then, it all comes down to money.

Wolf
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
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bliss
Yeah but wolf, in a situation like my children's school, sure, it's a seperate school division, but it's full classes. You'd need the same number of teachers, even if you put all the kids into one public school. So the only difference would be a larger building, and no religion.