The Land of Plenty

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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7 Million Poor Hidden in the Land of Plenty
By Paul Harris
The Observer UK

Sunday 19 February 2006

Americans have always believed that hard work will bring rewards, but vast numbers now can not meet their bills even with two or three jobs. More than one in ten citizens live below the poverty line, and the gap between the haves and have-nots is widening.

The flickering television in Candy Lumpkins's trailer blared out The Bold and the Beautiful. It was a fantasy daytime soap vision of American life with little relevance to the reality of this impoverished corner of Kentucky.

The Lumpkins live at the definition of the back of beyond, in a hollow at the top of a valley at the end of a long and muddy dirt road. It is strewn with litter. Packs of stray dogs prowl around, barking at strangers. There is no telephone and since their pump broke two weeks ago Candy has collected water from nearby springs. Oblivious to it all, her five-year-old daughter Amy runs barefoot on a wooden porch frozen by a midwinter chill.

It is a vision of deep and abiding poverty. Yet the Lumpkins are not alone in their plight. They are just the negative side of the American equation. America does have vast, wealthy suburbs, huge shopping malls and a busy middle class, but it also has vast numbers of poor, struggling to make it in a low-wage economy with minimal government help.

A shocking 37 million Americans live in poverty. That is 12.7 per cent of the population - the highest percentage in the developed world. They are found from the hills of Kentucky to Detroit's streets, from the Deep South of Louisiana to the heartland of Oklahoma. Each year since 2001 their number has grown.

Under President George W Bush an extra 5.4 million have slipped below the poverty line. Yet they are not a story of the unemployed or the destitute. Most have jobs. Many have two. Amos Lumpkins has work and his children go to school. But the economy, stripped of worker benefits like healthcare, is having trouble providing good wages.

Even families with two working parents are often one slice of bad luck - a medical bill or factory closure - away from disaster. The minimum wage of $5.15 (£2.95) an hour has not risen since 1997 and, adjusted for inflation, is at its lowest since 1956. The gap between the haves and the have-nots looms wider than ever. Faced with rising poverty rates, Bush's trillion-dollar federal budget recently raised massive amounts of defence spending for the war in Iraq and slashed billions from welfare programmes.

For a brief moment last year in New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina brought America's poor into the spotlight. Poverty seemed on the government's agenda. That spotlight has now been turned off. 'I had hoped Katrina would have changed things more. It hasn't,' says Cynthia Duncan, a sociology professor at the University of New Hampshire.

Oklahoma is in America's heartland. Tulsa looks like picture-book Middle America. Yet there is hunger here. When it comes to the most malnourished poor in America, Oklahoma is ahead of any other state. It should be impossible to go hungry here. But it is not. Just ask those gathered at a food handout last week. They are a cross section of society: black, white, young couples, pensioners and the middle-aged. A few are out of work or retired, everyone else has jobs.

They are people like Freda Lee, 33, who has two jobs, as a marketer and a cashier. She has come to the nondescript Loaves and Fishes building - flanked ironically by a Burger King and a McDonald's - to collect food for herself and three sons. 'America is meant to be free. What's free?' she laughs. 'All we can do is pay off the basics.'

Or they are people like Tammy Reinbold, 37. She works part-time and her husband works full-time. They have two children yet rely on the food handouts. 'The church is all we have to fall back on,' she says. She is right. When government help is being cut and wages are insufficient, churches often fill the gap. The needy gather to receive food boxes. They listen to a preacher for half an hour on the literal truth of the Bible. Then he asks them if they want to be born again. Three women put up their hands.

But Why Are Some Tulsans Hungry?

Many believe it is the changing face of the US economy. Tulsa has been devastated by job losses. Big-name firms like WorldCom, Williams Energy and CitGo have closed or moved, costing the city about 24,000 jobs. Now Wal-Mart embodies the new American job market: low wages, few benefits.

Well-paid work only goes to the university-educated. Many others who just complete high school face a bleak future. In Texas more than a third of students entering public high schools now drop out. These people are entering the fragile world of the working poor, where each day is a mere step away from tragedy. Some of those tragedies in Tulsa end up in the care of Steve Whitaker, a pastor who runs a homeless mission in the shadow of a freeway overpass.

Each day the homeless and the drug addicted gather here, looking for a bed for the night. Some also want a fresh chance. They are men like Mark Schloss whose disaster was being left by his first wife. The former Wal-Mart manager entered a world of drug addiction and alcoholism until he wound up with Whitaker. Now he is back on track, sporting a silver ring that says Faith, Hope, Love. 'Without this place I would be in prison or dead,' he says. But Whitaker equates saving lives with saving souls. Those entering the mission's rehabilitation programme are drilled in Bible studies and Christianity. At 6ft 5in and with a black belt in karate, Whitaker's Christianity is muscular both literally and figuratively. 'People need God in their lives,' he says.

These are mean streets. Tulsa is a city divided like the country. Inside a building run by Whitaker's staff in northern Tulsa a group of 'latch-key kids' are taking Bible classes after school while they wait for parents to pick them up. One of them is Taylor Finley, aged nine. Wearing a T-shirt with an American flag on the front, she dreams of travel. 'I want to have fun in a new place, a new country,' she says. Taylor wants to see the world outside Oklahoma. But at the moment she cannot even see her own neighbourhood. The centre in which she waits for mom was built without windows on its ground floor. It was the only way to keep out bullets from the gangs outside.

During the 2004 election the only politician to address poverty directly was John Edwards, whose campaign theme was 'Two Americas'. He was derided by Republicans for doing down the country and - after John Kerry picked him as his Democratic running mate - the rhetoric softened in the heat of the campaign.

But, in fact, Edwards was right. While 45.8 million Americans lack any health insurance, the top 20 per cent of earners take over half the national income. At the same time the bottom 20 per cent took home just 3.4 per cent. Whitaker put the figures into simple English. 'The poor have got poorer and the rich have got richer,' he said.

Dealing with poverty is not a viable political issue in America. It jars with a cultural sense that the poor bring things upon themselves and that every American is born with the same chances in life. It also runs counter to the strong anti-government current in modern American politics. Yet the problem will not disappear. 'There is a real sense of impending crisis, but political leaders have little motivation to address this growing divide,' Cynthia Duncan says.

There is little doubt which side of America's divide the hills of east Kentucky fall on. Driving through the wooded Appalachian valleys is a lesson in poverty. The mountains have never been rich. Times now are as tough as they have ever been. Trailer homes are the norm. Every so often a lofty mansion looms into view, a sign of prosperity linked to the coal mines or the logging firms that are the only industries in the region. Everyone else lives on the margins, grabbing work where they can. The biggest cash crop is illicitly grown marijuana.

Save The Children works here. Though the charity is usually associated with earthquakes in Pakistan or famine in Africa, it runs an extensive programme in east Kentucky. It includes a novel scheme enlisting teams of 'foster grandparents' to tackle the shocking child illiteracy rates and thus eventually hit poverty itself.

The problem is acute. At Jone's Fork school, a team of indomitable grannies arrive each day to read with the children. The scheme has two benefits: it helps the children struggle out of poverty and pays the pensioners a small wage. 'This has been a lifesaver for me and I feel as if the children would just fall through the cracks without us,' says Erma Owens. It has offered dramatic help to some. One group of children are doing so well in the scheme that their teacher, Loretta Shepherd, has postponed retirement in order to stand by them. 'It renewed me to have these kids,' she said.

Certainly Renae Sturgill sees the changes in her children. She too lives in deep poverty. Though she attends college and her husband has a job, the Sturgill trailer sits amid a clutter of abandoned cars. Money is scarce. But now her kids are in the reading scheme and she has seen how they have changed. Especially eight-year-old Zach. He's hard to control at times, but he has come to love school. 'Zach likes reading now. I know it's going to be real important for him,' Renae says. Zach is shy and won't speak much about his achievements. But Genny Waddell, who co-ordinates family welfare at Jone's Fork, is immensely proud. 'Now Zach reads because he wants to. He really fought to get where he is,' she says.

In America, to be poor is a stigma. In a country which celebrates individuality and the goal of giving everyone an equal opportunity to make it big, those in poverty are often blamed for their own situation. Experience on the ground does little to bear that out. When people are working two jobs at a time and still failing to earn enough to feed their families, it seems impossible to call them lazy or selfish. There seems to be a failure in the system, not the poor themselves.

It is an impression backed up by many of those mired in poverty in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Few asked for handouts. Many asked for decent wages. 'It is unfair. I am working all the time and so what have I done wrong?' says Freda Lee. But the economy does not seem to be allowing people to make a decent living. It condemns the poor to stay put, fighting against seemingly impossible odds or to pull up sticks and try somewhere else.

In Tulsa, Tammy Reinbold and her family are moving to Texas as soon as they save the money for enough petrol. It could take several months. 'I've been in Tulsa 12 years and I just gotta try somewhere else,' she says.

Savethechildren.org

From Tom Joad to Roseanne

In a country that prides itself on a culture of rugged individualism, hard work and self-sufficiency, it is no surprise that poverty and the poor do not have a central place in America's cultural psyche.

But in art, films and books American poverty has sometimes been portrayed with searing honesty. John Steinbeck's novel The Grapes of Wrath, which was made into a John Ford movie, is the most famous example. It was an unflinching account of the travails of a poor Oklahoma family forced to flee the Dust Bowl during the 1930s Depression. Its portrait of Tom Joad and his family's life on the road as they sought work was a nod to wider issues of social justice in America.

Another ground-breaking work of that time was John Agee's Let Us Now Praise Famous Men, a non-fiction book about time spent among poor white farmers in the Deep South. It practically disappeared upon its first publication in 1940 but in the Sixties was hailed as a masterpiece. In mainstream American culture, poverty often lurks in the background. Or it is portrayed - as in Sergio Leone's crime epic Once Upon A Time In America - as the basis for a tale of rags to riches.

One notable, yet often overlooked, exception was the great success of the sitcom Roseanne. The show depicted the realities of working-class Middle American life with a grit and humour that is a world away from the usual sitcom settings in a sunlit suburbia, most often in New York or California. The biggest sitcoms of the past decade - Friends, Frasier or Will and Grace - all deal with aspirational middle-class foibles that have little relevance to America's millions of working poor.

An America Divided

* There are 37 million Americans living below the poverty line. That figure has increased by five million since President George W. Bush came to power.

* The United States has 269 billionaires, the highest number in the world.

* Almost a quarter of all black Americans live below the poverty line; 22 per cent of Hispanics fall below it. But for whites the figure is just 8.6 per cent.

* There are 46 million Americans without health insurance.

* There are 82,000 homeless people in Los Angeles alone.

* In 2004 the poorest community in America was Pine Ridge Indian reservation. Unemployment is over 80 per cent, 69 per cent of people live in poverty and male life expectancy is 57 years. In the Western hemisphere only Haiti has a lower number.

* The richest town in America is Rancho Santa Fe in California. Average incomes are more than $100,000 a year; the average house price is $1.7m.

Some people in Canadian Content wouldn,t mind being American
well your welcome to it.
:(
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Darkbeaver, may I wonder if you are curious why
no society will ever cure the complexity of poverty
or ever cure the disparity of wealth ?

If you're for real, you might entertain a real
conversation about this, involving not just ideology
but rather of psychology and sociology.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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The reasons for poverty are quite complex.

And the complexity has defied every ideolology
of capitalism to communism to socialism to fascism to
any "jism" to ever sit on this planet.

I'm a huge pontificator on this point and I could
write a really long post on this subject exploring
every angle you could think of, but for the purposes
of keeping posts short enough for people to want
to read, I'm going to sit a little and see what
responses this thread gets.

BUT !!!

Before I do that, let me propose just one small angle
on the subject of psychology that defeats any prejudice
anybody has on the subject of poverty.

We are all very different, and why some of us do well or
worse given the same circumstances is a question
always ignored in the shallow world of politics.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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The reasons for poverty are simple Jimmoyer, greed and gluttony, we are in a real sense our brothers keepers, any nation that blames the poor and underprivilaged for thier poverty is ethicly and morally bankrupt. The top 20% (your gluttonous elite) rake in over 50% of income, the bottom 20% exist on 3.5% of the income, that,s a crime. And you promote and have promoted that process globally.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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Re: RE: The Land of Plenty

darkbeaver said:
The reasons for poverty are simple Jimmoyer, greed and gluttony, we are in a real sense our brothers keepers, any nation that blames the poor and underprivilaged for thier poverty is ethicly and morally bankrupt. The top 20% (your gluttonous elite) rake in over 50% of income, the bottom 20% exist on 3.5% of the income, that,s a crime. And you promote and have promoted that process globally.

Well if this is the case how come you communists haven't solved the problem on your side of the fence?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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Re: RE: The Land of Plenty

Jay said:
darkbeaver said:
The reasons for poverty are simple Jimmoyer, greed and gluttony, we are in a real sense our brothers keepers, any nation that blames the poor and underprivilaged for thier poverty is ethicly and morally bankrupt. The top 20% (your gluttonous elite) rake in over 50% of income, the bottom 20% exist on 3.5% of the income, that,s a crime. And you promote and have promoted that process globally.

Well if this is the case how come you communists haven't solved the problem on your side of the fence?


Constant interferance by capitalist pricks! :)
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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Even behind the Iron Curtains yall constructed?
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
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The flickering television in Candy Lumpkins's trailer

-Candy
-Lumpkin
-Trailer

If she's not a stripper i'll eat my mousepad.

Congratulations beaver, you've become my new person to slap around on these forums (had to give Caracal a break).:

The reasons for poverty are simple Jimmoyer, greed and gluttony, we are in a real sense our brothers keepers, any nation that blames the poor and underprivilaged for thier poverty is ethicly and morally bankrupt. The top 20% (your gluttonous elite) rake in over 50% of income, the bottom 20% exist on 3.5% of the income, that,s a crime. And you promote and have promoted that process globally.

So you're saying that every person that fails to achieve at least middle class is the burden of the rest of society? You've got this spin that all the financial implications are somehow or other the work of the rich? How can you cast blame upon a person who works hard to achieve success for the failures of others? You fail to take in to account that many of the poor in the U.S. and Canada are ill-educated, often drop outs who never move beyond minimal wage jobs. Is that our fault? That people won't finish school and get a real job? You fail to take in to account that many of the people who live in poverty have placed themselves in such a situation by way of bankruptcy, or overspending. I have an Aunt on my mothers side who received a substantial amount of money when her husband passed away and every cent of it is gone due to her overspending. Now she's not in poverty, but my point is that often people manage money poorly. Can you blame me for someone who cannot retain their money? I'm in the Army and thereby rich by no stretch of the imagination, however I have common sense in how to spend the money I make. I know my limits. Yes I have no doubts that the poverty situation in North America is bad, however it's far worse in other nations on this planet. Take for example, Afghanistan, a nation where 80% live below the international poverty line. There are no capitalists, in the true sense of the word, in Afghanistan, yet many live in absolute poverty. Many children are in the exact situation as the girl mentioned in the article you posted. How do you explain that? You seem willing to cast blame on a fragment of society for the short comings of all, that's sheer folly. I'd like to point out a few things about the info you posted (what I write may offend some, so be don't read this is you're easily offended, you've been warned):

The United States has 269 billionaires, the highest number in the world.

That's because they congregate to the U.S. Many aren't even Americans, they're simply drawn there. Do you think any of the Canadian billionaires live soley in Canada? What do you want to bet that every one has a home in the States?

Almost a quarter of all black Americans live below the poverty line; 22 per cent of Hispanics fall below it. But for whites the figure is just 8.6 per cent.

It's a sad fact that the racial groups have different forms of worth ethic in the U.S. Every person in the U.S. is given the exact same opportunities. However many blacks and hispanics in the U.S. tend to do poorly in school and end up contributing nothing to society. There's always been the cliche that the prisons are filled with blacks...that's because they're the ones committing the crimes. Once again let me reiterate that i'm not saying this is the case with all blacks, or all hispanics, however this tends to be the rule. Look at gangs, look at the "hood", these people have every opportunity to excel and better their lives, but what do they do? Deal drugs? Run with a gang? Steal cars? Am I suppose to feel sorry for these people and the abject state of poverty they're keeping themselves in? No, I refuse to take social blame for people who cannot go through school like I did, and get an education. And to prevent the retort that I assume you'll use "how can they afford college", let me just say two words "student loan". I have a friend from Hickory North Carolina, her family isn't rich, or even middle class by any sense of the word. Her parents work at dead-end jobs and barely have enough money left over for food after the bills are paid. However, Kelly, my friend, is going to the University of North Carolina in Raleigh, where she's taking Zoology to become a vet. How can she afford this? A student loan. Nothing is beyond reach, it only requires the individual to take steps to reach their goals.

There are 46 million Americans without health insurance.

That's a failure of your nation, not the "capitalist pigs". Your nation deems it more important to spend billions on defence instead of universal health care. Why? Well the U.S. was caught with their pants down in 1941 and they don't plan to be caught again. Is it right to sacrifice basic healthcare for weapons? No, however a nation such as the U.S. needs to protect itself. Perhaps a balance should be struck? Then again i'm not in power, nor am I an American. The end result? You cannot blame the fact that millions don't have health care on the rich people of society. I'd also like to just chip in with a notion that perhaps the rich don't have healthcare either? Many rich (even in Canada) have private doctors thus negating the end for healthcare. I wouldn't be surprised if a large chunk of that 46 million is millionaires and billionaires. Lastly Blue Cross is available to every American. While it isn't as good as public healthcare like in Canada, it is still an option. Here's an idea folks, put down the dope, stop smoking crack, stop getting baked all day, and put that money towards medicare. Problem solved.

In 2004 the poorest community in America was Pine Ridge Indian reservation. Unemployment is over 80 per cent, 69 per cent of people live in poverty and male life expectancy is 57 years. In the Western hemisphere only Haiti has a lower number.

I have no sympathy for natives. They've done it to themselves. They live for free, get everything for free from the Government and then accomplish nothing with their lives. Imagine getting everything handed to you? A house, a car, food, what point would there be to get an education? Get a job? There wouldn't. So you aren't rich, but as long as you've got your x-box, smokes, and bottle of rye life is good. You may disagree but remember, i'm in the Army, I see a lot of natives join this organization to get away from the reserve. A good example is a guy who was on basic training with me years ago. Brooks, a Micmac Indian from Nova Scotia. Excellent guy, good soldier. He joined the CF to get off the reserve. We asked him one night over cards why it was so bad. He said that there was no direction. People were handed everything and never had to work to achieve. People didn't feel the need to finish school, get a real job, worry about yard work, maintain a healthy lifestyle. It was just live as you are and let life take its course. Luckily Brooks got off the Reserve, but he's the exception not the rule. Many natives build themselves the situation described above Beaver. You cannot, once again, blame the well off for their situation. Millions of our tax dollars are poured in to their reservations yearly and they do nothing with the money. What should we do? Give them more money so they can buy more booze, more smokes, and die sooner? No, I won't take responsibility for the lazy people of society.

The richest town in America is Rancho Santa Fe in California. Average incomes are more than $100,000 a year; the average house price is $1.7m.

And we're suppose to be angry at these people? They've worked hard to achieve their lifestyles. I say good for them, let them be an example to the shiftless people in society.

To sumize, yes povery exists. Is it anyones fault? Yup, the people who fail to drag themselves out of the gutter. Do I have sympathy? Yes I do. Will I accept responsibility? No.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Mogz said:
"Congratulations beaver, you've become my new person to slap around on these forums (had to give Caracal a break).: "

Help yourself Mogz I,ll enjoy it more than you will. And by the way what ideas do you have to end poverty?
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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Re: RE: The Land of Plenty

darkbeaver said:
Jay said:
darkbeaver said:
The reasons for poverty are simple Jimmoyer, greed and gluttony, we are in a real sense our brothers keepers, any nation that blames the poor and underprivilaged for thier poverty is ethicly and morally bankrupt. The top 20% (your gluttonous elite) rake in over 50% of income, the bottom 20% exist on 3.5% of the income, that,s a crime. And you promote and have promoted that process globally.

Well if this is the case how come you communists haven't solved the problem on your side of the fence?


Constant interferance by capitalist pricks! :)

What, no cut and paste? I'm saddened.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Darkbeaver, here are the questions on poverty:

1. Given the same circumstances, the same
family heritage, the same start, why do some people
fail and others excel ?

2. Why do some people rise out of poverty and
do even better than those with a head start ?
Or vice versa ?

3. Why are heroes not a regular occurrence ?

4. Why is failure easier than success ?

5. Why does greed and self interest hurt
ourselves or help ourselves, for it does do both ?

6. Why do you not shed all your accumulation of
assets to a homeless person, because obviously
compared to that person you are a wealthy
selfish glutton?

7. What line of wealth do you set for others to
give up what they have?

8. Why do you not invite 5 homeless people into
your spacious abode ?

9. Why do you think some people win at chess
and others lose when both are bound by the same
rules?

10. Why do you think whatever society rules and
design you invent, will there always be a bell curve
of a bottom, a middle, and a top level?

11. Why do some people think that if they work
harder and smarter than the other guy that they
should deserve a better reward?

12. Why is wealth a matter of vantage point, as in
the numerous stories you hear from grandparents
and parents that when they were kids they didn't
know they were all poor ?

13. Why does vantage point matter when if everyone
is in the same boat, they don't feel disadvantaged,
because, well, everyone else is ---- and yet with
the same amount of wealth feel very disadvantaged
if they live next to a wealthier neighbor ?

14. Why do we praise those who don't resort
to blaming others for their own situation ?

15. Why do we find it so hard to give power to others
to determine how wealthy each person is allowed
to be ?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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All very good questions Jimmoyer, all valid observations on the state of poverty, but I believe in universal healthcare, universal education, and universal basic housing and food, those are the criteria that I would judge a nations greatness with.You have stated that poverty has always been and always will be, to accept that is wrong, to blame the poor is wrong, to stop trying to help change that is wrong. It,s said that a chain is only as strong as it,s weakest link, America has many weak links.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
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The Evil Empire
Re: RE: The Land of Plenty

darkbeaver said:
All very good questions Jimmoyer, all valid observations on the state of poverty, but I believe in universal healthcare, universal education, and universal basic housing and food, those are the criteria that I would judge a nations greatness with.

You believe in universal health care and yet Canada ranks right with the US according to the UN, hypocrit.

You believe in universal education and yet Canada provides next to zero in aid (bursaries) to your student population, hypocrit.

You believe in basic housing and food and yet you have your own homeless and starving roaming around the streets, I say again, hypocrit.

If this is how you measure greatness, i suggest you step down from your podium in shame.

darkbeaver said:
You have stated that poverty has always been and always will be, to accept that is wrong, to blame the poor is wrong, to stop trying to help change that is wrong. It,s said that a chain is only as strong as it,s weakest link, America has many weak links.

And while you smirk at America's shortcomings and hope for its demise you have become apathetic to your internal problems, once again, hypocrit.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Holy Mackeral, Darkbeaver !!

You appear to be reasonable !!!

So let's talk.

I hope those questions remain with you whenever the
subject of poverty and disparity come up.

Those questions might lead you to conclude that we
should accept poverty and disparity as inevitable.

Instead, I think those questions force us to look at the
complexity of human nature and to have those questions
govern our search for understanding, especially in
the strident shallow world of political ideologues.

Treating those questions as accepting poverty as
inevitable DEMEANS the value of those questions.

Take a different approach with those questions.

I think those questions comprise a beginners course
on the matter of disparity and its enduring complexity,
despite our best wishes and hopes, and failed solutions.

I don't think it's ever an argument about EITHER/ OR.

I think we argue on the margins.

We argue how much subsidy, how much taxes,
how much burden we accept.

Like any of us, we might want to buy something,
but can we afford it?

And if we invest in a purchase, will it last ?

Or will we be fools throwing money down a hole?

These are not callous questions, but questions of adults,
not idealistic children.

Like Mother Teresa said, "You teach that man how
to fish, but I will feed him fish until he is strong
enough to learn how."

As we nuture the weak, we define success as a weaning
that child from the parent. We define success
as emancipation from dependency.

And dependency is a narcotic, an addiction hard
to lick.

Often we yell at each calling the other stupid and the other one responding "capitalist pig."

That argument is shallow of course.

Because it gets us far away from something we all know.
We all know those questions posed.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Re: RE: The Land of Plenty

I think not said:
darkbeaver said:
All very good questions Jimmoyer, all valid observations on the state of poverty, but I believe in universal healthcare, universal education, and universal basic housing and food, those are the criteria that I would judge a nations greatness with.

You believe in universal health care and yet Canada ranks right with the US according to the UN, hypocrit.

You believe in universal education and yet Canada provides next to zero in aid (bursaries) to your student population, hypocrit.

You believe in basic housing and food and yet you have your own homeless and starving roaming around the streets, I say again, hypocrit.

If this is how you measure greatness, i suggest you step down from your podium in shame.

darkbeaver said:
You have stated that poverty has always been and always will be, to accept that is wrong, to blame the poor is wrong, to stop trying to help change that is wrong. It,s said that a chain is only as strong as it,s weakest link, America has many weak links.

And while you smirk at America's shortcomings and hope for its demise you have become apathetic to your internal problems, once again, hypocrit.

You made us in your image, Harper will do the rest.
:)
 

meta4r

New Member
Feb 17, 2006
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Like Mother Teresa said, "You teach that man how
to fish, but I will feed him fish until he is strong
enough to learn how."

The people I help face situations like this:
  • Rent = $400 - $600 for minimally habitable dwellings

    Utilities = $200 - $400 (lower rents equal higher utilities in most cases)

    Monthly take home = $700 to rarely $1000

    Available hours = less than 34 per week (part time equals no benefits)

    Social assistance = $200/month food credit, $300/year utility assistance, possibility for rental assistance one month out of the year, medical including prescription, food bank available once monthly.

    Employability = likelihood of mental or physical handicap precluding education or advancement
Do the math, clients in this situation have no money for drugs, booze, or any other extravagance. They consistently apply themselves to their own survival. Some of the posters here have been quite callous in asking these people to do more for themselves. They cannot.

Quite cynically, I applaud your efforts to pull the rug out from the least fortunate. The minimal aid we do provide is another soporific that encourages complacency. If you succeed in removing the aid, desperation will rise and perhaps then you will see the need for a universal safety net.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
The privatizing capitalists believe in the phony trickle down
scenario promoted by president Ronald Reagan, all it promotes is huge piles of gold at the upper end of the spectrum and huge privation at the bottom end.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
69
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Darkbeaver, you showed a rare moment of reasonableness earlier in this thread, so let me speak
to that side of the Darkbeaver.

The disparity of wealth is duly noted by all of us.

In fact we should not ignore it.

Now what?

We can use the lingo of the Left and the Right
and have a Punch and Judy show.

Or ?

We can forget about Harper or Reagan or Bush or
any other idiot who has a fan club.

Instead, we ought to look at what do-able solutions
there are, without Leftist or Rightist language and without references to political leaders.

All we ever argue about is the politician, and so both
left and right prostitute themselves as some groupie
or fan club attacking the other guy's favorite guy.

We all do it.

You do it.

I do it.

So let's ponder how what kind of system can
pull us all together. And preferably this system
should be a mix of the best of both left and right
understanding.

Left and Right brain stuff.

Or maybe no system should be pondered at all ?

Perhaps it will never be any system that can do this.

Perhaps it finally comes down to a very personal
level, what each does to accept personal responsibility
no matter what the rules are, no matter what
the obstacles are.

These are just some sketches to elevate us
above our politicians, for my sneaking suspicion
is that we critics are no better than our leaders,
and my suspicion gets even darker because I
believe we are a lot worse at mis-understanding the
reality than any politician we praise or demean.

Why ?

Simple division of labor.

These guys are eating, sleeping and reading this stuff
and we aren't. We got other irons in the fire, like
family, jobs, hobbies.

Even the most hated politician is rarely the cartoon
the media presents. We see only a 2 dimensional
characature sketch in a cartoon, or an editorial, or
a sound bite.

We the people rarely do as much homework as
those we think know less --- our politicians.

And so maybe we can prove otherwise by actually
discussing how we would do the job.

That oughta prove how stupid we all really are.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
I remember watching the news as local NFL Players were handing out turkeys to the less fortunate. Every one of the "less fortunate" was obese. OBESE. I am talking three hundred pounders. I was stunned. We have the fattest poor people in the world. Not just that, they have the best foot gear and hippest clothing to boot. When I see them at the Super Market their carriages are filled with all the best junk food you can by. It is a great way to do nothing with your life, live off people paying taxes, and complain that you are poor.

Another news story out of Florida was when the computers went kaput and food stamps had to be given out at a much slower rate. Of course they were complaining and fighting with Police because they had to wait in long lines. One man was quoted saying

"Now when we don't get our eats and we gotta sell drugs ya'll be mad at us."

Well we can always go back to the way Stalin did it. Starve them to death and there would be no poverty. Ship them to Siberia and work them to death. Or just plain wipe out whole segments of the population. Isn't that the Communist way?

Maybe you're little green men that you have been posting about lately can help. Any contact yet?