The Improbability of God

[Cliffy]

Our thoughts are real, Cliff? That's a terrible thought.

Ain't responsibility a bitch?

 

[ironsides]

"No one can prove she does not exist!"
Why only speak in half truths, can anyone prove she does exist.
And all that leads us to: More Americans say they have no religion. More and more Americans say they have no religion, guess that Christian conversion of N. America some of you feared will never in our lifetime.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090309/ap_on_re/rel_religious_america

 

[Spade]

"No one can prove she does not exist!"[/URL]

Now, explain to me why NASA went to visit her (I know, 40 years ago - maybe) if she doesn't exist?

And why Apollo not Selene? Sexist?
and, shame!
Quote from Wikipedia:
""Selena" ranked 815th and "Selene" 2555th in a common US-based listing of Most Popular Female First Names."

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Just to refresh your mind, our conversation came to an end when you refused to reply to the question about the banking rules of the OT being far better than what exists today

No, it went on for quite a few posts after that, and I did reply. I indicated it was an irrelevant aside that has no bearing on the subject of the thread. I just didn't reply the way you wanted me to. It was quite a while after that that you sank into that juvenile "lalala can't hear you" mode.

Another correction that should be made (and it isn't a big enough of an issue to even look back a few posts let alone many) [then why bring it up?]is that you simply refused to answer several questions put forward.

There's a difference between refusing to answer and not bothering to answer. Questions that seem merely rhetorical to me, and dumb and pointless questions, I usually just let go by. I don't feel obliged to respond to all points raised, I respond to what interests me.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Not about Canada but you'll get the idea:

Vid

It doesn’t surprise me Scott Free. In a Muslims Theocracy (Iran, Saudi Arabia), Christian Theocracy (like they used to have in the old days in Europe, and like the religious right would like to bring to USA even today), in a Nazi Theocracy (Nazi Germany), in a Communist Theocracy (Stalin’s USSR, or Mao’s china), Atheists like me (and perhaps you) will be among the first to be rounded up and sent to concentration camps.

Atheists will always be the thorn in the flesh of any Theocracy. It doesn’t surprise me at all that there are no Atheists in Iran, and no homosexuals. If I were an Atheist or a homosexual living in Iran, I would keep my mouth firmly shut (and try to find ways to emigrate).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The ways of atheists​

It is very strange the way of atheists: they contradict everything related to or commanded by God Almighty:

The homosexuality with all its dangers to community and families and killing the manhood in the object on whom the action is done the guy) and that the subject will like this abnormal and disgusted way – this they encourage.

The adultery with all its dangers to the family and disruption of the lineage so that the son may not know who is his father – this they enhance and confirm.

The gambling with its danger to the loss of money and making many quarrelling – this they like.

The consumption of alcohol with its undeniable risks to the individual and community – this they encourage.

And so on they dislike everything pertaining to God, and cling to everything bad contradicting His way and religion. This indicates they follow the footsteps of their invisible enemy: Satan and his servants, although they deny it.

This is in the Quran 43: 36-39​

ومن يعشُ عن ذكرِ الرحمنِ نقيّضْ له شيطاناً فهو له قرين ...الخ​

The explanation:
(And anyone whose sight is dim to the admonition [: the Quran] of the Most Gracious [God], We exchange for him a devil who becomes his comrade (in stead of the believers whom he disliked).

And the [devils] surely turn the [associaters] from the way [of the truth], and yet the [associaters] deem themselves rightly guided.

Till when the [associater after death] comes to Us, he says [to his comrade, the devil]: "Would that between me and you there was the distance of the two sun-rises -- an evil comrade!"

And [the angels will say to the associaters and their comrades, the devils]: "[Your disputing] profits you not this day; because you wronged [people in the past], so you will be shares in the doom.")

man-after-death.t35.com/1.htm#Devils_​

Eanassir, we neither encourage nor discourage homosexuality, adultery, gambling etc. However, we in the West believe in many freedoms (I know freedom is a dirty word in Islamic countries, perhaps punishable by stoning, I don’t know).

We believe in freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom to worship whoever one chooses, freedom of association etc. If somebody wants to practice homosexuality, gambling or whatever, that is their business, and not the business of a busybody, tyrannical, dictatorial state. And above all it is none of the business of Imams, Mullahs and Ayatollahs.

I would much rather live in a free society, with all its defects, that live in an Islamic dictatorship, where a woman is stoned to death, where one man is considered equal to two women, where a man can kill his mother, daughter, wife or sister, if he suspects that they may have besmirched his honour. Or the Islamic dictatorship where homosexuals are put to death and Atheist like me are sent to concentration camps (or put to death, as infidels).

So you can keep your Islamic dictatorship, give me democracy (with all its faults) any time.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The atheism and the association with God or idolatry are two similar things; and both the idolater (or the associater) and the atheist will be in Hell forever.

Eanassir, about that. Tell me who is going to be in Heaven. Mohammed Atta (who flew a plane into World Trade Centre)? Osama Ben Laden? Mullah Mohammed Omar (Taliban dictator of Afghanistan)? Ayatollah Khomeini (former dictator of Iran)?

If these luminaries are in Heaven, believe me, I would much prefer to go to Hell. I can’t stand these people in the current life, why in the world would I want to spend an eternity with them?

If Heaven is filled with Islamic Fundamentalists, Islamic terrorists, give me Hell any day.

 

[ironsides]

"Now, explain to me why NASA went to visit her (I know, 40 years ago - maybe) if she doesn't exist?"

Because she does exist? ;-)

 

[Spade]

If you use yourYouTube - First Moon Landing 1969 imagination, ironsides, you can see right through Armstrong!
I wish NASA had continued; I thought I'd live to see man on Mars.

 

[ironsides]

Willing to bet that is just a previous image that did not fade fast enough before new image. I do see what you mean though.

 

[Scott Free]

It doesn’t surprise me Scott Free. In a Muslims Theocracy (Iran, Saudi Arabia), Christian Theocracy (like they used to have in the old days in Europe, and like the religious right would like to bring to USA even today), in a Nazi Theocracy (Nazi Germany), in a Communist Theocracy (Stalin’s USSR, or Mao’s china), Atheists like me (and perhaps you) will be among the first to be rounded up and sent to concentration camps.

Atheists will always be the thorn in the flesh of any Theocracy. It doesn’t surprise me at all that there are no Atheists in Iran, and no homosexuals. If I were an Atheist or a homosexual living in Iran, I would keep my mouth firmly shut (and try to find ways to emigrate).

I agree.

Religion is the worst kind of tyranny possible. It supposes ultimate authority by association with an imaginary deity thereby empowering adherents to commit atrocities. The nicest people can be persuaded to do the worst imaginable things to please their god and reinforce his authority through violence.

 

[eanassir]

Since I am also supposed to be in misery and yet I'm not, so then you found a quote that said I could enjoy myself, you'll have to understand...

The life in the World and the afterlife​

• The life in the World is only very little in comparison to the next afterlife when man will live for millions of years and is not going to die once again.

This is in the Quran 23: 112-114​

قَالَ كَمْ لَبِثْتُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ عَدَدَ سِنِينَ . قَالُوا لَبِثْنَا يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْضَ يَوْمٍ فَاسْأَلْ الْعَادِّينَ . قَالَ إِن لَّبِثْتُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا لَّوْ أَنَّكُمْ كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ​

The explanation:
(He will say: "For how long have you [deniers of the Hereafter] tarried in the earth, by number of years?"​

They will say: "We have tarried merely a day or part of a day, but inquire of those who count [the days and years.]"​

He will say: "You have not tarried but a little, if you had only known [the truth.]")​

• The life of the World is so trivial in comparison to the next afterlife; it is only playing and pastime.

This is in the Quran 57: 20​

اعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا لَعِبٌ وَلَهْوٌ وَزِينَةٌ وَتَفَاخُرٌ بَيْنَكُمْ وَتَكَاثُرٌ فِي الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَوْلَادِ كَمَثَلِ غَيْثٍ أَعْجَبَ الْكُفَّارَ نَبَاتُهُ ثُمَّ يَهِيجُ فَتَرَاهُ مُصْفَرًّا ثُمَّ يَكُونُ حُطَامًا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَغْفِرَةٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانٌ وَمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا إِلَّا مَتَاعُ الْغُرُورِ​

The explanation:
([O people] know that the life of the World is but playing, diversion, adornment, boasting among you, and a rivalry in having more wealth and children; ​

It is as a rain whose vegetation delights the tillers, then [after draught] it is withered [by the wind], and you see it turning yellow, then it becomes broken fragment. ​

In the Hereafter there will be severe chastisement, and [there will be] forgiveness and good pleasure of God; surely the life of the World is but chattels of deception.)​

• In general the life in the World (where man lives with his material body) is only an opportunity to acquire good faith and good righteous work in preparation for the next afterlife where man will live for millions of years (with his ethereal soul without his material body.)

This is in the Quran 59: 18​

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَلْتَنظُرْ نَفْسٌ مَّا قَدَّمَتْ لِغَدٍ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ​

The explanation:
(O believers, ward off God['s disobedience]; ​

let every soul consider what [good work] it has forwarded for tomorrow [following death.] ​

And ward off [the disobedience of the messenger of] God; ​

[for] God is Most Aware of [all] that you do.)​

• So the Worldly life resembles a respite for man (until he reaches his appointment of death) then this respite will end, and no more chance for additional work reward may be given, so that man may be able to change his gain of the righteous work and moderate his evil work to some better work.

God – be glorified – said in the Quran 35: 37 about the associaters in Hell:​

وَهُمْ يَصْطَرِخُونَ فِيهَا رَبَّنَا أَخْرِجْنَا نَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا غَيْرَ الَّذِي كُنَّا نَعْمَلُ أَوَلَمْ نُعَمِّرْكُم مَّا يَتَذَكَّرُ فِيهِ مَن تَذَكَّرَ وَجَاءكُمُ النَّذِيرُ فَذُوقُوا فَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِن نَّصِيرٍ​

The explanation:
(And they [will] cry therein [saying:] "Our Lord, release us; we will do righteous [work], not [the evil] that we used to do." ​

[And it will be said to them:] "But did not We grant you a life long enough therein for him who would receive admonition? And [the prophet:] the warner came to you. ​

Now suffer [the torment], for wrong-doers have no helper.)​

man-after-death.t35.com/1.htm#The_Hereafter_Is_Better_and_more_Enduring

 

[eanassir]

The "life in the World" and the "afterlife" - 2​

Both the life in the World and the next afterlife belong to God Most Gracious.
​

• In the life of the world: both the believer and the disbeliever will enjoy themselves with health, wealth, children, women, eating, drinking and all other sorts of joys.

As in the aya 17: 20​

كُلاًّ نُّمِدُّ هَؤُلاء وَهَؤُلاء مِنْ عَطَاء رَبِّكَ وَمَا كَانَ عَطَاء رَبِّكَ مَحْظُورًا​

The explanation:
(To each of these [believers] and those [disbelievers] We give freely of the bounty of your Lord [O Mohammed];

and your Lord's bounty can never be strictly confined.)
----------------------------------------------------------
That is because God is Generous and Open-handed.

​

• Then the disbeliever will be punished in the afterlife, following his death.

This is in the aya 20: 124​

وَمَنْ أَعْرَضَ عَن ذِكْرِي فَإِنَّ لَهُ مَعِيشَةً ضَنكًا وَنَحْشُرُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ أَعْمَى​

The explanation:
(But whoso turns away from My admonition,
then there will be for him a hard living [in the afterlife],
and on the Day of Judgment We shall bring him blind to the gathering together.)

​

• The disbeliever may be given much bounties in the World, only to fulfill for him the reward of any good work he might have done.

This is according to the Quran 23: 55-56​

أَيَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّمَا نُمِدُّهُم بِهِ مِن مَّالٍ وَبَنِينَ . نُسَارِعُ لَهُمْ فِي الْخَيْرَاتِ بَل لَّا يَشْعُرُونَ​

The explanation:
(Do they think that the wealth and children that We bestow on them.

[That] We hasten for them every good thing [in recompense of their deeds and because they are honored before Us!?] [No,] but [actually] they perceive not.)


man-after-death.t35.com/1.htm#The_Hereafter_Is_Better_and_more_Enduring
​

 

[Niflmir]

Of what use have the gods been to man? It is no answer to say that some god created the world, established certain laws, and then turned his attention to other matters, leaving his children weak, ignorant and unaided, to fight the battle of life alone. It is no solution to declare that in some other world this god will render a few, or even all, his subjects happy. What right have we to expect that a perfectly wise, good and powerful being will ever do better than he has done, and is doing? The world is filled with imperfections. If it was made by an infinite being, what reason have we for saying that he will render it nearer perfect than it now is? If the infinite "Father" allows a majority of his children to live in ignorance and wretchedness now, what evidence is there that he will ever improve their condition? Will God have more power? Will he become more merciful? Will his love for his poor creatures increase? Can the conduct of infinite wisdom, power and love ever change? Is the infinite capable of any improvement whatever?



We are informed by the clergy that this world is a kind of school; that the evils by which we are surrounded are for the purpose of developing our souls, and that only by suffering can men become pure, strong, virtuous and grand.



Supposing this to be true, what is to become of those who die in infancy? The little children, according to this philosophy, can never be developed. They were so unfortunate as to escape the ennobling influences of pain and misery, and as a consequence, are doomed to an eternity of mental inferiority. If the clergy are right on this question, none are so unfortunate as the happy and we should envy only the suffering and distressed. If evil is necessary to the development of man, in this life, how is it possible for the soul to improve in the perfect joy of Paradise?


Robert Ingersoll, 'The gods'

 

[Trex]

Anyone rented Bill Maher's flick Religulus?

Asks a few interesting questions.

It's worth a watch

Trex

 

[eanassir]

The "life in the World" and the "afterlife" - 3​

​

• So this is in general: the disbeliever, the associater (or idolater) and the atheist will be given respite in this World,

and may be given much authority and wealth and position, and may become haughty and tyrant because of this: because he sees himself independent, and does not need (according to his illusion: does not need any god or lord)

This is in the Quran 3: 196-197 ​

لاَ يَغُرَّنَّكَ تَقَلُّبُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فِي الْبِلاَدِ . مَتَاعٌ قَلِيلٌ ثُمَّ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ وَبِئْسَ الْمِهَادُ​

The explanation:
(Let it not delude you [Mohammed] that the unbelievers go to and fro freely in the land;

[They will have only] a little enjoyment [in this World], then their refuge will be Hell – an evil resort [will it be!] )

And in the aya 14: 42​

وَلاَ تَحْسَبَنَّ اللّهَ غَافِلاً عَمَّا يَعْمَلُ الظَّالِمُونَ إِنَّمَا يُؤَخِّرُهُمْ لِيَوْمٍ تَشْخَصُ فِيهِ الأَبْصَارُ​

The explanation:
(Think not that God is unaware of wrong-doers. He only gives them respite till a day when eyes will fixedly stare forwards.)

​

• There is some particular examples like some hypocrites who did not struggle and fight in the way of God together with the prophet; so He said concerning them in the Quran 9: 82

فَلْيَضْحَكُواْ قَلِيلاً وَلْيَبْكُواْ كَثِيرًا جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُواْ يَكْسِبُونَ​

The explanation:
(So let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the [evil] that they do.)

It means: From now on We shall make their life with much sadness and little joy; and by this their weeping will increase and their laughing will be little.

Or like the wrong-doer who frankly oppresses someone, then he will sooner or later be punished in this World, may be before the afterlife, then in the afterlife before Judgment Day.

man-after-death.t35.com/1.htm#Punishment_and_Prosperity_in_the_Barzakh_World_

man-after-death.t35.com/1.htm#Prosperity_for_Believers_in_the_Hereafter_
​

 

[eanassir]

Of what use have the gods been to man?

Here, we don’t agree to this sentence of the words of this atheist, that you quoted from his book.

There is no god but God alone without associate; He is the Most Gracious and Most Merciful and Most Bountiful to both the believer and the disbeliever, but the disbeliever denies all his blessings and favors that he has been given like:
the PhD degree and the intelligence in addition to the large number of bounties from the eye-sight to the reason that he has and the health, the wealth, the house, the children, the car, the security, the good salary, the beautiful loving wife, the dear children…etc.

As in the Quran 14: 34 ​

وَآتَاكُم مِّن كُلِّ مَا سَأَلْتُمُوهُ وَإِن تَعُدُّواْ نِعْمَتَ اللّهِ لاَ تُحْصُوهَا إِنَّ الإِنسَانَ لَظَلُومٌ كَفَّارٌ​

The explanation:
(And gave you of all you asked Him, and if you would count the bounty of God you cannot count it. Man, indeed, is a wrong-doer, an ingrate.)

Moreover, from the first day man was created, God acquainted him how to behave and have a good conduct, and to cooperate with e

ach other, and to be good to parents and relatives, and to learn and to work in lawful way for his livelihood. And to abandon the stealing, killing and lying, and first of all to worship God alone and leave the worshipping of stars, idols and other men.

Therefore without God's instructions and revelations, man would have been immersed in the darkness of ignorance and savage conduct.
​

It is no answer to say that some god created the world, established certain laws, and then turned his attention to other matters, leaving his children weak, ignorant and unaided, to fight the battle of life alone.

God did not leave his servants helpless: on the contrary He sent them His apostles successively to teach all generations about the monotheism to which they might be guided, only if they desist from their wrong and oppression against each other.

Moreover, God did not leave his creation and turned His attention to other matters. This is in the Quran 23: 17​

وَمَا كُنَّا عَنِ الْخَلْقِ غَافِلِينَ​

The explanation:
(Nor are We heedless of creatures.)

And in the aya 34: 3​

عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ لَا يَعْزُبُ عَنْهُ مِثْقَالُ ذَرَّةٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَا أَصْغَرُ مِن ذَلِكَ وَلَا أَكْبَرُ إِلَّا فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ​

The explanation:
([By my Lord!] Who knows the 'Unseen'. Not an atom's weight [of your words and works] or less than that or greater, may escape Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a manifesting record.)
​

It is no solution to declare that in some other world this god will render a few, or even all, his subjects happy.

God created them to show them His mercy, but the wrong-doers chooses no other way but the disbelief.

This is in the Quran 17: 99​

أَوَلَمْ يَرَوْاْ أَنَّ اللّهَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ قَادِرٌ عَلَى أَن يَخْلُقَ مِثْلَهُمْ وَجَعَلَ لَهُمْ أَجَلاً لاَّ رَيْبَ فِيهِ فَأَبَى الظَّالِمُونَ إَلاَّ كُفُورًا​

The explanation:
(Have they not seen that God Who created the heavens and the earth is Able to create the like of them;
moreover He has appointed for them an [appointed] term, of which there is no doubt; yet the wrong-doers refuse anything but to unbelieve.)


man-after-death.t35.com​

 

[Spade]

The god du jour.
Today is Thor'sDay or jeudi (Jove or Jupiter Day)
Thor is the Norse equivalent of Jupiter.

Jupiter, the king of the gods.
Jupiter (mythology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Spade]

Jupiter is real; see his eye!

 

[Trex]

The god du jour.
Today is Thor'sDay or jeudi (Jove or Jupiter Day)
Thor is the Norse equivalent of Jupiter.

Jupiter, the king of the gods.
Jupiter (mythology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dude is gonna be catching a little wood in no time