The Improbability of God
- Thread starter Scott Free
- Start date
It wasn't even an argument because it didn't have any valid points in it, it was a personal opinion piece with no substance to it at all.
"Trying to make sense of the information in a collection of 2000 to 5000 year old texts on the assumption that their contents and the assumptions of the people who wrote them are unchangeably true and correct and no further data is required. You'll never figure out anything useful that way."
That's okay run away like always.
The whole God story was doing just fine, the world was this many years and Gods spoke to whoever and came down, to earth, perhaps he can't afford to do that anymore because of heavenly budget cuts. What changed everything the the finding and dating, ancient animal bones. God is a belief system some use it for a
spiritual crutch, and others use it for a political agenda that is very destructive.
No one can prove or disprove whether God exists so the discussion goes on forever
furthering the agenda of those on power tips and wanting to discriminate against others, in the name of God of course. I am a retired Catholic so I have been through this a million times or more and there is no answer, as every answer only furthers some people agenda to discuss the issue to death amen.
spiritual crutch, and others use it for a political agenda that is very destructive.
No one can prove or disprove whether God exists so the discussion goes on forever
furthering the agenda of those on power tips and wanting to discriminate against others, in the name of God of course. I am a retired Catholic so I have been through this a million times or more and there is no answer, as every answer only furthers some people agenda to discuss the issue to death amen.
I doubt that marriage would ever take place. Besides a lazy, unemployed man is a bum (like you say) and not a man anyway.
Sure the marriage could take place. The man may not be unemployed when they got married; he may have lost his job later on and his will to succeed shortly thereafter. On the other hand, the woman may be in an ordinary job when they got married, but with effort, perseverance and dedication, she climbed the corporate ladder and achieved a senior position.
As to a lazy, unemployed bum not being a man, let me get this straight. Your God (or God of Bible) specifies three types of human beings? Men, women and lazy, unemployed bum? When he tells the woman to obey her husband unquestioningly, when he tells the man to rule over the woman, he specified, except if man is a lazy unemployed bum?
When God says that man will rule over the woman, there are no qualifications to the statement, that is an absolute statement. Man will rule over the woman, period. It says nothing about the qualification of man or woman. Same as according to Koran, one man is equal to two women. That man may be Ted Bundy; Jack the Ripper or Hitler, the woman may be Mother Teresa or Florence Nightingale. It doesn’t matter; one man is equal to two women.
Look, we are never going to agree on this one. According to you, Bible is the word of God, and if Bible says that man is the boss, the master, why then man is the boss, and there is no argument about it.
In my opinion, if Bible says that man is the boss, it only tells me that Bible was written by men 2000 years ago, of course they are going to say that the man is the boss. No book written 2000 years ago is going to propound the progressive ideas of today (of equality, diversity, pluralism, freedom of worship etc.).
No book written 2000 years ago (or 1500 years ago, the Koran) is going to agree with the revolutionary, dangerous concept that men and women are equal. Why, to say that woman is the equal of man was probably a capital offense in those days. So to me it makes perfect sense when Bible says that man is the master, woman is the servant, or when Koran says that man is the master, woman is the slave.
We re never going to agree on this one, let us just agree to disagree.
Sure the marriage could take place. The man may not be unemployed when they got married; he may have lost his job later on and his will to succeed shortly thereafter. On the other hand, the woman may be in an ordinary job when they got married, but with effort, perseverance and dedication, she climbed the corporate ladder and achieved a senior position.
As to a lazy, unemployed bum not being a man, let me get this straight. Your God (or God of Bible) specifies three types of human beings? Men, women and lazy, unemployed bum? When he tells the woman to obey her husband unquestioningly, when he tells the man to rule over the woman, he specified, except if man is a lazy unemployed bum?
When God says that man will rule over the woman, there are no qualifications to the statement, that is an absolute statement. Man will rule over the woman, period. It says nothing about the qualification of man or woman. Same as according to Koran, one man is equal to two women. That man may be Ted Bundy; Jack the Ripper or Hitler, the woman may be Mother Teresa or Florence Nightingale. It doesn’t matter; one man is equal to two women.
Look, we are never going to agree on this one. According to you, Bible is the word of God, and if Bible says that man is the boss, the master, why then man is the boss, and there is no argument about it.
In my opinion, if Bible says that man is the boss, it only tells me that Bible was written by men 2000 years ago, of course they are going to say that the man is the boss. No book written 2000 years ago is going to propound the progressive ideas of today (of equality, diversity, pluralism, freedom of worship etc.).
No book written 2000 years ago (or 1500 years ago, the Koran) is going to agree with the revolutionary, dangerous concept that men and women are equal. Why, to say that woman is the equal of man was probably a capital offense in those days. So to me it makes perfect sense when Bible says that man is the master, woman is the servant, or when Koran says that man is the master, woman is the slave.
We re never going to agree on this one, let us just agree to disagree.
The whole God story was doing just fine, the world was this many years and Gods spoke to whoever and came down, to earth, perhaps he can't afford to do that anymore because of heavenly budget cuts.
Damngrumpy, maybe God invested heavily in AIG or in City Bank. And now he is forced to cut back.
Damngrumpy, maybe God invested heavily in AIG or in City Bank. And now he is forced to cut back.
And suppose the wife has extensive agricultural experience and knowledge, maybe she worked on the farm of her father, does that count for anything? Not according to your God. What man says is the law, is the final word, and the wife can lump it.
And further suppose that the man came to the farming recently, maybe he inherited the farm from his uncle, decided to give up his job (his final decision, wife had no say in it of course) and take up farming. Is man’s word still final (the wife has no say in the matter)? Of course it is.
Indeed, that is the problem with taking any religious book literally, there are no exception. When God says that man will rule over the woman, he will rule over the woman, period, regardless of the qualifications, background or knowledge of the man and the woman.
If religion gave a **** about women and kids, or moral laws decried from god then rape and molestation would be commandments 11 and 12
Woman rights in the Quran – 2
There is nothing as the persecution of women or that woman is not human …etc. this is obviously some deliberate confusion.
In the Quran 2: 228 the woman has similar rights of man, but man has a grade superior to her.
وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ
The explanation:
(And [wives] have rights similar to those [of husbands] over them according to the reasonable [measures]; but the men have an authority over them.
God is All-Mighty [and] Wise.)
(And [wives] have rights similar to those [of husbands] over them according to the reasonable [measures]; but the men have an authority over them.
God is All-Mighty [and] Wise.)
Certainly, there are many differences between man and woman, as are there differences between the adult and the child.
How can the woman be like the man in every respect? To this, no reasonable man may agree, neither will women agree.
There are anatomical, physiological, psychological and social differences; although both man and woman are human individuals.
Life will not be real unless the woman has her role as has the man his role.
Man is certainly superior to woman in one degree, as has the father a degree over his son; although both of them respect each other.
The requirements of the man in his society and family is other than what is required of a woman. In other words, man has some social and familial duties, more than that of the woman; therefore, if the share of inheritance of the male be like the female, then this will be unfair.
This is generally speaking, but some women may be more clever, intelligent or socially active among her family members, and even may have more commercial affairs and may be more rich than men even in her family; this is not forbidden, and none can rob her property or transgress on any of her rights according to the religion of God and the Quran.
In the Quran, God ordered that the share of the female is half the share of her brother: according to the aya 4: 11
يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ ...الخ
The explanation:
(God instructs you as regards your children's [share of inheritance]: [the portion of the inheritance] of a male shall be like the portion of two females…etc.)
(God instructs you as regards your children's [share of inheritance]: [the portion of the inheritance] of a male shall be like the portion of two females…etc.)
On the other hand, the rights of woman in inheritance is preserved and none can transgress on her right unless in contradiction to the Quran and by disobeying God Almighty.
This is in the Quran 4: 19
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُواْ النِّسَاء كَرْهًا وَلاَ تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُواْ بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا
The explanation:
(O believers, it is not lawful for you to inherit women against their will;
neither trouble them, that you may take away part of [the dower] you have given them, –– except where they have been guilty of obvious adultery.
But consort with them kindly;
for if you hate them, it may be that you hate something wherein God may put much good [for you.] )
(O believers, it is not lawful for you to inherit women against their will;
neither trouble them, that you may take away part of [the dower] you have given them, –– except where they have been guilty of obvious adultery.
But consort with them kindly;
for if you hate them, it may be that you hate something wherein God may put much good [for you.] )
quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
Last edited:
Dex, before moving on go back and reply to the banking post. From the articles I've read so far a high-tech lab is essential, nature doesn't work that way.
The strange thing is that they once say the evolution and natural selection, and another time they say the probability and chance.
Let us all imagine this concept of the evolution by natural selection; is this reasonable?
Even though some may give it the cover of science and may use some scientific expressions.
If it was concerning one organism or one being: it might be somewhat accepted. But see:
How can all these beings of man, animal and plant (with their large number and great variations on one hand and systemic similarities on the other hand) come to existence spontaneously without any Creator?
Because of their insisting, and overcoming others in words in the name of science; while all this is only falsehood.
And how can all this come to existence without Someone Who systemizes all this order, and at least supervises this tremendous process?
And why all this system keeps up in harmony, and will not corrupt or be destroyed?
Now let us consider man: did the natural selection know that he needed a female; so this natural selection created for him the woman to continue the kind?
Then why did not such natural selection keep man living and not make him die?
Then the natural selection made the offspring by the sperms and ova, with all their internal structures and chemical substances secreted.
So why didn't the natural selection continue so that the male and female will separate continuously and become far in features from each other?
Then why did not such natural selection keep man living and not make him die?
Then the natural selection made the offspring by the sperms and ova, with all their internal structures and chemical substances secreted.
So why didn't the natural selection continue so that the male and female will separate continuously and become far in features from each other?
How could the natural selection make man symmetrical with almost two equal arms, two equal legs, two equal eyes, ears …etc?
This is in the Quran 82: 6-12
يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنسَانُ مَا غَرَّكَ بِرَبِّكَ الْكَرِيمِ . الَّذِي خَلَقَكَ فَسَوَّاكَ فَعَدَلَكَ . فِي أَيِّ صُورَةٍ مَّا شَاء رَكَّبَكَ ...الخ
The explanation:
([The angels will say to the unbeliever:] "O man! What has made you careless concerning your Bountiful Lord",
([The angels will say to the unbeliever:] "O man! What has made you careless concerning your Bountiful Lord",
"Who created you [from scanty seminal fluid],
then made you [a man: hearing and seeing]
then equalized you[r organs] symmetrically?"
then made you [a man: hearing and seeing]
then equalized you[r organs] symmetrically?"
"And He composed you into whatever form [of the four human races] He willed."
No, but [actually] you [unbelievers] unbelieve in the 'Requital'.
Yet, there are [some] recording [angels] in charge of you.
[That are] honorable [before God], and writers [of your deeds and words.]
[And] they know [the work] that you do.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
How could the natural selection make the eye of the seagull when it is flying in the sky to see the fish under the surface of the water? This thing which no human being may be capable to do, whatever intelligent is he.
So if such natural selection can do all this, it is very wise, intelligent and genius! And it cannot be without mind and purpose and wisdom.
man-after-death.t35.com
Last edited:
Sorry to interject, but.
Saw "Water" on CBC's late move last night. Set in 1938 India, it's a commentary on the misery of widows trapped by custom and religion.
Really, that misery was little different from that imposed by today's Islam or not-so-long-ago's Christianity! Religion, must give the gods pains in the butt!
Saw "Water" on CBC's late move last night. Set in 1938 India, it's a commentary on the misery of widows trapped by custom and religion.
Really, that misery was little different from that imposed by today's Islam or not-so-long-ago's Christianity! Religion, must give the gods pains in the butt!
I'm not even sure you understand who has authority over who, you use man and woman quite often when you should be using husband and wife being that is who Adam was given authority over. You have also been given the information that a husband will leave his parents (2nd most important people in his life) because of the love for his wife, that isn't a control issue that a man has over a woman, if anything it is control of the wife over a husband that is greater than the control of a parent (either parent BTW) has over any of their own children. Since your post is more of a rant than anything rather than me giving you the skinny on what the Bible says, you go and look up the restrictions placed on a husband about how he cannot treat a wife. You post is indicative that any man has authority over any woman, that is false and you know it and I'm pretty sure you intentionally worded it that way. I'm pretty sure it is common knowledge that any man attempting to control a woman who is not his wife will attract a lot of attention from the woman's parents, brothers. uncles, male neighbors who will basically draw and quarter that man.
Your useless man would have been turned over to the temple leaders in the OT for stoning to death, today most wives would kick his ass to the curb and then divorce him and marry another, more stable, man. If she doesn't do the above then I guess that lazy SOB does have authority over her for some obscure reason.
Yes, it's eminently reasonable, if you actually understand anything about it, but you keep insisting on extreme positions, which is both the false dichotomy fallacy and the fallacy of the excluded middle. Reality is in between. No doubt you've observed that animals and plants are all individuals, that members of a species are not identical? That's the normal genetic variation that natural selection operates on.
Does the fact that you would have to agree have anything to do with that reluctance? No need to respond to this post, I'm pretty sure everybody here already know the answer, that's the Bible bashers are so quiet about that subject. Doesn't look good for Atheists agreeing that this system today is meant for enslavement while the Biblical method would pretty much eliminate poverty for all people.
Eanassir, now we are getting somewhere, you are making my case for me. Let me quote a few statements from your post.
the woman has similar rights of man, but man has a grade superior to her.
So according to you, Islam says that man is superior to woman, I agree (I don’t agree that man is superior to woman, but I agree that Islam says that).
but the men have an authority over them
Man has an authority over his wife, has absolute control over his wife. Again I agree (that Islam says that).
[FONT="]Man is certainly superior to woman in one degree[/FONT]
Again, I agree (that Islam says that man is superior to woman).
This is generally speaking, but some women may be more clever, intelligent or socially active among her family members
Really? No!!!! Isn’t that blasphemy?
the share of the female is half the share of her brother:
[the portion of the inheritance] of a male shall be like the portion of two females…etc
Exactly, according to Islam, one man is equal to two women. Again, we agree.
So you have made my case for me. Thank you.
SJP, this subject seems very dear to you, are you a man playing the role of a woman in a "marriage" where your role is the one of a wife but you still get to make some sort of decisions?
Again, you have made my case for me. Let me quote a couple of sentences.
you should be using husband and wife being that is who Adam was given authority over.
I agree that Adam is given the authority over Eve, that Adam is the master, Eve is the servant.
I'm pretty sure it is common knowledge that any man attempting to control a woman who is not his wife will attract a lot of attention
I see. So any man who is controlling his wife is presumably a commonplace occurrence, that is how it should be, that is ordained by God. A man has the God given right to control his wife. That clearly implies that man is superior to woman, that man is the master, woman is the servant.
Again, I agree (that Bible says so).
today most wives would kick his ass to the curb and then divorce him and marry another, more stable, man.
Really? Why? Doesn’t’ your God say that man has the absolute control over his wife? Then why would the wife have the right to divorce her husband? Anyway, according to your Holy Book (Bible), the only ground for divorce is fornication, or adultery. Laziness, failure to get a job are not grounds for divorce, according to the Bible. So if the woman would behave in the manner you describe, she would be behaving in a most unbiblical manner, and bring the wrath of your God upon herself.
Anyway, so thank you for making my case for me. It has been my experience, give the religious fanatic, religious extremists enough rope, he invariably hangs himself.
No, SJP, it's stoning not divorce.
Deuteronomy 22.22
“If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman and the woman; so shalt thou put away evil from Israel."