The Gun Registry Must be Deregistered!!

[bluealberta]

but the Gun Registry does have a positive effect. Stolen firearms are now reported.

That's because the registered owner will get charged if a the gun is found by police, or a crime is committed with it if they haven't reported it stolen. This is a positive effect? More paperwork?

Police now know when going to a call whether there are guns in the residence.

Nonsense. They only know that if they happen to be going to the house of a lawabiding citizen, which is where they're least likely to call. For most houses they have to go to, they don't have a clue if there are guns there or not.

People who are being sought by the law for unrelated things can now be checked to see if they own guns.

No, they can only be checked to see if they have registered guns, and again, those whom the police seek are least likely to bother registering their weapons.

The costs you keep freaking out about are partly due to idiots plugging up the system by registering soldering guns and toasters too.

No, it's a government beaurocracy. Civil servants may be dumb enough to register a few staple guns, but theres no way that would cause a billion dollar overrun on a 2 million dollar project.

There was a very recent case in Calgary where the police were confronted by several high powered guns at a residence which they did not know about. Seems to me that the arguments for the gun regsitry should have known this.

Similarly, the gun used to kill the four RCMP officers was not registered either. Does not anyone see the fallacy in thinking that the cops will know if there are illegal or unregistered guns in a house? How? Yes, they may know about the odd domestic disturbance where there are guns registered, but as these are more urban than rural issues, as Blair rightly points out these disturbances are unlikely to have guns involved. Most rural domestic distrubances go unreported due to the length of time for a response.

Blair, I disagree, this is an east west issue, simply because the west is more rural than the east. Making everyone register their varmit guns simply to appease an over reaction by central canada is what makes the western opponents of gun control so cranky.

And the cost overrun is not due to the faux registration. After Adscam, I am not so sure that this was not simply another slush fund for the liberals, just like HRDC was too. Does ANYONE know ANYONE who works for this agency?

 

[Reverend Blair]

That's because the registered owner will get charged if a the gun is found by police, or a crime is committed with it if they haven't reported it stolen. This is a positive effect? More paperwork?

Yes it is a positive effect. The police can now track a stolen gun.

Nonsense. They only know that if they happen to be going to the house of a lawabiding citizen, which is where they're least likely to call. For most houses they have to go to, they don't have a clue if there are guns there or not.

Police make many calls each day for domestic disputes, parties, etc...situations that can get violent but where the residents are generally law-abiding.

No, they can only be checked to see if they have registered guns, and again, those whom the police seek are least likely to bother registering their weapons.

Yup. And if somebody is wanted for something and you were the cop going to arrest him, wouldn't you want as much information as possible?

Most folks I know have rifles. I do. My MLA does. None of us have registered our weapons. As several elected MPs and MLAs in Western Canada have stated publically 'come and charge me'.

So? You're proud that you are breaking the law? Do your MLAs register their cars? If they didn't, would you consider them reasonable or unreasonable.

This is very much an East-West issue. If the West (including urban Calgary/Edmonton/Regina etc. MPs) had the majority in the house of Parliament then the insanity of the registry would have been scrapped long ago.

No it is not an east-west issue. People from Newfoundland to BC hunt. People in Ontario hunt. People in Quebec hunt. It's been falsely turned into an east-west issue by a bunch of Reform/Alliance/Conservative hacks that were too stupid to take part in the issue when they had the chance. Now all they do is whine about and blame it on the east, further alienating themselves and making better legislation less and less likely.

When the hell are you guys going to learn how politics works in this country? Here's a hint...don't look south for an example, our system is not theirs.

There was a very recent case in Calgary where the police were confronted by several high powered guns at a residence which they did not know about. Seems to me that the arguments for the gun regsitry should have known this.

These are ridiculous points Blue. Illegally owned guns aren't registered and the registry was never meant to address that.

It's stupid to keep pointing it out...heroin is illegal and cops find it all the time. Does that mean that we should deregulate all prescription opiates and make everything over the counter?

That is exactly the argument that you've been making over and over again about guns. It's ridiculous.

 

[mrmom2]

So let me get this right Rev the NDP would keep the registry :? Keep throwing good money down an ever deepening whole :x

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: The Gun Registry Must

I don't speak for the NDP, Mom. There is discussion within the party on what policy should be. The split runs along urban/rural lines, not east/west lines.

Even if they scrapped the registry though, there would be tighter restrictions on gun ownership. There would be more attention paid to guns imported from the US as well. That would bring about similar screams from the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives as we've been hearing about the gun registry.

 

[bluealberta]

RB Said:

These are ridiculous points Blue. Illegally owned guns aren't registered and the registry was never meant to address that.

It's stupid to keep pointing it out...heroin is illegal and cops find it all the time. Does that mean that we should deregulate all prescription opiates and make everything over the counter?

That is exactly the argument that you've been making over and over again about guns. It's ridiculous.

Of course illegally owned guns aren't registered, that makes my point, not the supporters of the gun registry. Comparing it to heroin is apples and oranges.

The point which was made in your response is that only legally registered guns will be known to the police, which is no different than before the implementation of this $2billion piece of crap. The process and restrictions in place before the current gun registry did EXACTLY what you say the new one did. Therefor, the new registry is totally redundant. Unless of course it is simply another liberal slush fund, which given the illogical responses from the supporters, is something that many are starting to believe more and more.

New registry vs old system: No change
Cost: $2,000,000,000.00 and rising.

What an absolute waste of money. :roll:

 

[Extrafire]

Yes it is a positive effect. The police can now track a stolen gun.

Really? How? Do registered guns have little hidden homing devices? It only means that if a stolen gun is recovered by police they can return it to the rightful owner. It would be cheaper if the government would just reimburse victims of gun theft than register them.

Police make many calls each day for domestic disputes, parties, etc...situations that can get violent but where the residents are generally law-abiding.

Quote:
No, they can only be checked to see if they have registered guns, and again, those whom the police seek are least likely to bother registering their weapons.


Yup. And if somebody is wanted for something and you were the cop going to arrest him, wouldn't you want as much information as possible?

Naturally. But the one piece of information I wouldn’t ever know is that there are no guns there, registry or no registry. Any cop who approaches such a situation without assuming the worst take a chance ending up like the four who died north of Edmonton.

Illegally owned guns aren't registered and the registry was never meant to address that.

And there’s the problem. It was never really meant to address anything. One Liberal MP, in a moment of candid weakness, admitted to a reporter that the only reason for the registry was that urban voters would support it. $2 billion to buy votes.

In ’67 I bought a Smith & Wesson revolver. I had to go to the police station in Kamloops and register. A week later I picked up my gun. Nothing more than a check for a criminal record. I bought long guns just by going to the store and handing over the cash. No courses, no regulations, no training, no paranoia. It was a good system. The long guns I used for hunting. The revolver for target shooting. I was a good shot with rifles, but terrible with handguns, so I sold the revolver. I stopped hunting long before the regulations went nuts. It was easy, and people felt safe. The politicians created a fear and used that to buy votes. Totally immoral.

Unlike you, and probably everyone else here, I have had a close relative murdered by a long gun. His girlfriend’s former boyfriend shot him from behind in a fit of jealousy and then shot himself. He had no record, no prior convictions and was not known to police. If the registry had been in place at that time (1971) he would have had no trouble being registered, and the crime would still have happened. The same for the Montreal massacre. Marc Lepine would have had no trouble purchasing and registering his weapon.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Of course illegally owned guns aren't registered, that makes my point, not the supporters of the gun registry. Comparing it to heroin is apples and oranges.

It's not apples and oranges. You are using the same logic. Actually it's illogic, but it is what you are using.

The point which was made in your response is that only legally registered guns will be known to the police, which is no different than before the implementation of this $2billion piece of crap.

Legally owned guns can be used to commit crimes as well, Blue. They often are.

The process and restrictions in place before the current gun registry did EXACTLY what you say the new one did. Therefor, the new registry is totally redundant.

No, actually, they didn't. They did not register guns. I pointed out a few benefits of the Registry and you have not responded to that. You are wrong again, Blue.

Unless of course it is simply another liberal slush fund, which given the illogical responses from the supporters, is something that many are starting to believe more and more.

You believe whatever you want, Blue. That those beliefs are based on your own paranoid fantasies and fueled by the lies and rhetoric put forth by the politicians you support and their lackeys in the radical right press.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Really? How? Do registered guns have little hidden homing devices? It only means that if a stolen gun is recovered by police they can return it to the rightful owner. It would be cheaper if the government would just reimburse victims of gun theft than register them.

This isn't really that complicated. A gun gets stolen. It is used in a crime. Where that gun came from can be tracked back to who did the stealing and who did the selling.

Naturally. But the one piece of information I wouldn’t ever know is that there are no guns there, registry or no registry. Any cop who approaches such a situation without assuming the worst take a chance ending up like the four who died north of Edmonton.

So what? You can never be sure that there isn't a gun there, but that one is can change things considerably. What happened in Alberta, and how willing the gun lobby is to use it for their political purposes makes me sick, was a tragedy. The cops knew all about the guy though.

And there’s the problem. It was never really meant to address anything. One Liberal MP, in a moment of candid weakness, admitted to a reporter that the only reason for the registry was that urban voters would support it. $2 billion to buy votes.

And I've said that again and again. On this very site. I'm not sure why you guys have so much trouble reading it.

The rest of your post is as irrelevant as usual.

 

[Extrafire]

Where that gun came from can be tracked back to who did the stealing and who did the selling.

Which isn't much different from what I said, but is of little value to society or police.

So what? You can never be sure that there isn't a gun there, but that one is can change things considerably.

My point exactly. That being so, the registry is no help at all and police must always assume that there is a gun.

And there’s the problem. It was never really meant to address anything. One Liberal MP, in a moment of candid weakness, admitted to a reporter that the only reason for the registry was that urban voters would support it. $2 billion to buy votes.



And I've said that again and again. On this very site. I'm not sure why you guys have so much trouble reading it.

I have no trouble reading it, just understanding why you would try to defend that worthless registry or suggest that it has any value at all.

The rest of your post is as irrelevant as usual.

Real life examples of how useless the registry is are hardly irrelevant.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Real life examples of how useless the registry is are hardly irrelevant.

Real life examples do not work in a political discussion, Extrafire. They especially do not work on the internet when your claims cannot be verified.

The fact is that for every real life example you produce, and can produce one showing the opposite. If no documentation is required, I can produce several.

Which isn't much different from what I said, but is of little value to society or police.

It is of great value because it leads to other criminals.

My point exactly. That being so, the registry is no help at all and police must always assume that there is a gun.

But the registry is of help because they can know for sure that there is a gun.

I have no trouble reading it, just understanding why you would try to defend that worthless registry or suggest that it has any value at all.

As opposed to your view that even FACs are too intrusive?

 

[bluealberta]

Once again, there is no sense responding to opinions as facts. That the supporters think that the police will know where there is a gun when they go to a house is so naive as to be ridiculous. This was either a vote buying slush fund, or an Adscam type slush fund. There is really no other reason to spend that kind of money on something that was never going to do any more than the previous procedures, regisration policies, and restrictions already did. To pretend otherwise is to buy into the continual lies and misinformation of the liberals and NDP.

 

[Andygal]

RE: The Gun Registry Must

You keep talking about not treating opinions as facts but then you turn around and pretend your opinions are facts when they are reguritations of all Stephen Harper's spin. If you like spinning so much you should buy a desk chair that spins and spin on that. It would make you look a hell of a lot less ignorant.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must

You keep talking about not treating opinions as facts but then you turn around and pretend your opinions are facts when they are reguritations of all Stephen Harper's spin. If you like spinning so much you should buy a desk chair that spins and spin on that. It would make you look a hell of a lot less ignorant.

Okay. If you are not so ignorant, again your opinion, then you tell me exactly what the gun registry has done, complete with links and stats. As near as I can tell, it has done zilch, but then, hey, I 'm just an ignorant redneck from Alberta who really don' understand you city folks who must be so much better because, hey, you live in a city and vote for the left. What crap.

And unlike the left, who spout NDP and LIberal non policy, I don't need anyone, Harper or Klein, to tell when some piece of legislatation that has cost us billions has done nothing. Unlike the vast majority of the left, right wing types can think for themselves.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: The Gun Registry Must

Okay. If you are not so ignorant, again your opinion, then you tell me exactly what the gun registry has done, complete with links and stats. As near as I can tell, it has done zilch, but then, hey, I 'm just an ignorant redneck from Alberta who really don' understand you city folks who must be so much better because, hey, you live in a city and vote for the left. What crap.

And unlike the left, who spout NDP and LIberal non policy, I don't need anyone, Harper or Klein, to tell when some piece of legislatation that has cost us billions has done nothing. Unlike the vast majority of the left, right wing types can think for themselves.

Well this whole tirade of yours looks a hell of a lot like conjecture and opinion to me...which of course is only my opinion...:wink:

So not only are you an ignorant redneck, as you've suggested, but you're also hypocritical... which is also my opinion...

 

[Andygal]

RE: The Gun Registry Must

I don't know enough about the gun registry to legitimately start blabbering about it. So I won't. I was merely pointing out that in my opinion you were being hypocritical, since your statements are largerly opinion and spin.

 

[Extrafire]

Real life examples do not work in a political discussion,

Are you suggesting that politics is all lies? 8O What a novel idea! I would never have suspected. Personally I prefer to deal in truth (reality) which may explain why I never felt drawn to run for office.

They especially do not work on the internet when your claims cannot be verified.

They can be verified by a little research, but I'm not about to publicise my deceased relative for this unimportant forum. As for Marc Lepine, it's been well publicised that he met all the requirements for gun ownership. You should have no trouble verifying that, not that I would expect you to for this unimportant discussion.

But the registry is of help because they can know for sure that there is a gun.

Sigh... Let me try again. That means they'll have to proceed exactly the same as if they didn't know for sure there is a gun. That is no help at all.

 

[Extrafire]

Once again, there is no sense responding to opinions as facts. That the supporters think that the police will know where there is a gun when they go to a house is so naive as to be ridiculous. This was either a vote buying slush fund, or an Adscam type slush fund. There is really no other reason to spend that kind of money on something that was never going to do any more than the previous procedures, regisration policies, and restrictions already did. To pretend otherwise is to buy into the continual lies and misinformation of the liberals and NDP.

That's why it's so difficult to try to reason with leftists. The only way they can stay leftist is to continually deny reality.

 

[bluealberta]

Once again, there is no sense responding to opinions as facts. That the supporters think that the police will know where there is a gun when they go to a house is so naive as to be ridiculous. This was either a vote buying slush fund, or an Adscam type slush fund. There is really no other reason to spend that kind of money on something that was never going to do any more than the previous procedures, regisration policies, and restrictions already did. To pretend otherwise is to buy into the continual lies and misinformation of the liberals and NDP.

That's why it's so difficult to try to reason with leftists. The only way they can stay leftist is to continually deny reality.

Reality and leftists don't belong in the same sentence. You just made a great point in a few words. Well done. 8)

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Once again, there is no sense responding to opinions as facts. That the supporters think that the police will know where there is a gun when they go to a house is so naive as to be ridiculous. This was either a vote buying slush fund, or an Adscam type slush fund. There is really no other reason to spend that kind of money on something that was never going to do any more than the previous procedures, regisration policies, and restrictions already did. To pretend otherwise is to buy into the continual lies and misinformation of the liberals and NDP.

That's why it's so difficult to try to reason with leftists. The only way they can stay leftist is to continually deny reality.

Reality and leftists don't belong in the same sentence. You just made a great point in a few words. Well done. 8)

Yeah...just watch you don't catch your eyebrows in his zipper... 8O

 

[Andygal]

That's why it's so difficult to try to reason with leftists. The only way they can stay leftist is to continually deny reality.

It is my OPINION that right-wing people are the people who are denying reality. You accuse US of being unreasonable? The right wing )again this is my opinion) is composed of people who have never learnt to reason. I arrived at most of my views by thinking about it, where did you get yours Blue? Right out of the mouth of Stephen Harper no doubt.