The Gathering and the Judgment will be in the space

eanassir

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...it is nothing compared how Muslims offend all Christians by degrading Jesus and bringing Him down to the level of Mohammed, by claiming that He is but a Prophet.


Jesus is not proud over Mohammed, neither is Mohammed proud over Jesus; each believes the other is God's apostle.

God taught Jesus the Torah and the Gospel when he was with angels in heaven, before creating the fetus in the womb of Virgin Mary his mother.

Then God taught Jesus the Quran and its interpretation which he conveyed to the Paraclite: the Awaited Mahdi.

Therefore, if truly you follow Jesus:
>> you have to desist from your enthusiasm,
>> and believe Jesus is only the righteous servant of God like the rest of God's apostles,
>> and you have to believe in Prophet Mohammed and the Glorious Quran.

Or else you will be refused by the Christ himself, and [in spite of that you are related to him by name: Christian, and you speak in his name], he will say to you "I don't know you, away from me ..."

And you will lose in the afterlife if you don't believe in Mohammed and the Quran.
 

Dexter Sinister

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So while He revealed the Quran in Arabic because the apostle and his people are the Arab.
You miss the point entirely. The point is that that's a stupid way to get the message out. And if you doubt that, just look at the consequences so far. By far the majority of the world's people still haven't heard the message, almost 1500 years after it was delivered, and in the meantime there have been, and continue to be, strife, conflict, death and destruction, over the import of that message and other messages supposedly from a deity that others think they've received. Even Muslims themselves are killing each other over it, the schism between Shia and Sunni is roughly equivalent to the schism between Catholic and Protestant in the Christian world, the apostolic succession. If all this is the work of a deity, who by definition must have been able to foresee it all, he's a bumbling moron.

Far simpler to explain it all as the work of men, not god. A real god could have, and should have, made the message available simultaneously in all languages, with no room for doubt about what it is.
 

eanassir

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In the past, countries of the world were distant from each other; cities of the same country were far away from each other. The languages and sublanguages were very much different, and the transport and communication were very difficult.

To each nation, God sent one or more apostles to warn them of the punishment in the World and the afterlife, in case they wrong people and associate others with Him.

Even to each big city, He sent one or more apostles, and sometimes at the same time, there were more than one prophets and apostles.

The message is the same: to worship God alone, similar to the First Commandment.

What we were told is only concerning our region: Only some chief prophets of the Children of Israel, some prophets before them like Noah, Abraham, Salih, Hood, Shuaib, Jonah, etc.

Other nations must have had their apostles and warners, but we were not told about them in the Quran; because this requires extensive writings.

As in the aya 35: 24
إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَإِن مِّنْ أُمَّةٍ إِلَّا خلَا فِيهَا نَذِيرٌ

The explanation:
(We have sent you [Mohammed] with the true [religion, as] a bearer of glad tidings and as a warner; and there was not any [past] nation, but a warner [of them] should have passed away therewith.)

However, when the apostle comes to his people, and speaks with them by their language, and then they divide into two parties according to God's guidance and misguidance.

This is in the Quran 14: 4
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ بِلِسَانِ قَوْمِهِ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَهُمْ فَيُضِلُّ اللّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

The explanation:
(We did not send any messenger [before you, O Mohammed] but [to teach] in the language of his [own] people, in order to explain to them.

So God would lead astray those whom He please and would guide whom He please,

and He is the Almighty, the Most Wise.)

This is about the Quran did not reach a large number of people all over the world:
No, almost most people heard about the Quran; and the Quran meaning have been translated to a large number of languages, and this will be against people who do not believe; because they have already heard about the Quran and the Islam.

The reason for the schism and fighting:
The reason for fighting and schism is not because of the religion of God itself; but because of their deviation from it.

This is in the Quran 5: 14
وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّا نَصَارَى أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَهُمْ فَنَسُواْ حَظًّا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُواْ بِهِ فَأَغْرَيْنَا بَيْنَهُمُ الْعَدَاوَةَ وَالْبَغْضَاء إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَسَوْفَ يُنَبِّئُهُمُ اللّهُ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَصْنَعُونَ

The explanation:
(With those – [Christians] saying: "We ratified a covenant, but they have forgotten a portion of that they were admonished with; so We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them [and they divided into many sects] till Doomsday, and God assuredly will inform them [on the Day of Judgment] of the [statues of the Christ and his mother and the crosses] they used to make.)

This also is in the Quran 2: 253
وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلَ الَّذِينَ مِن بَعْدِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَلَكِنِ اخْتَلَفُواْ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ آمَنَ وَمِنْهُم مَّن كَفَرَ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلُواْ وَلَكِنَّ اللّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ

The explanation:
(Had God willed, then the [people] after these [apostles] would not have fought with each other, even after manifest signs [of revelation] had come to them [included in the heavenly scriptures.]

But they varied: some [steadfastly] believed and others disbelieved.

Had God willed, then they would not have fought each other,

but God does whatever He wills.)

And this aya 6: 65 is also related to this subject:
قُلْ هُوَ الْقَادِرُ عَلَى أَن يَبْعَثَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَذَابًا مِّن فَوْقِكُمْ أَوْ مِن تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِكُمْ أَوْ يَلْبِسَكُمْ شِيَعاً وَيُذِيقَ بَعْضَكُم بَأْسَ بَعْضٍ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُصَرِّفُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَفْقَهُونَ

The explanation:
(Say: He is All-Able to send forth upon you, [associaters,] chastisement from above you or from under your feet, or to confuse you in sects and to make you suffer of the violence of one another.

Behold [O Mohammed] how We turn about the revelations; haply that they may understand.)

And there are many other ayat with the same implication.
 

Dexter Sinister

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However, when the apostle comes to his people, and speaks with them by their language, and then they divide into two parties according to God's guidance and misguidance.
...
So God would lead astray those whom He please and would guide whom He please,
and He is the Almighty, the Most Wise.
And again you concede, twice in one post, that god deliberately misguides people. And then he condemns them for what by any reasonable standard is his fault. How would you judge a man who behaved that way, while claiming to be the Most Wise, and demanding respect? I'll take my chances in Hell rather than spend eternity with that double-dealing SOB.
 

L Gilbert

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And again you concede, twice in one post, that god deliberately misguides people. And then he condemns them for what by any reasonable standard is his fault. How would you judge a man who behaved that way, while claiming to be the Most Wise, and demanding respect? I'll take my chances in Hell rather than spend eternity with that double-dealing SOB.
Ditto.
A long time ago I was told the best leaders lead, they don't push. These gods of Christians and Muslims push.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Maybe it's a cultural thing with Dr. Nassir, bowing to capricious abuse of power. Sounds a bit like the kind of weight the Catholic Church had in mediaeval Europe, and Islam's about as old now as Christianity was then. I don't think that's a coincidence. Islam needs a Reformation and an Enlightenment, starting with somebody like Rene Descartes to show them how to think properly, without all this magical hocus pocus.
 
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eanassir

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And again you concede, twice in one post, that god deliberately misguides people. And then he condemns them for what by any reasonable standard is his fault. How would you judge a man who behaved that way, while claiming to be the Most Wise, and demanding respect? I'll take my chances in Hell rather than spend eternity with that double-dealing SOB.


If you are the owner of a company or factory, and there are many workers in your factory: their work and efforts are different: some of them are lazy and some work hard; some are cunning and others have good intention and manner, will you then deal with all workers in the same way ?

Of course the good among them will deserve your reward, while the bad will deserve the punishment.

This is only a parable to explain that God guides and misguides according to the person himself: if man is kind-hearted and good-doer --> God will guide him and give him the reward of Paradise in the afterlife;
while if he is hard-hearted, and evil-doer and wrong-doer --> God will dislike, misguide and punish him in Hell in the next afterlife.

Moreover, if man changes his conduct: he becomes kind-hearted, good-doer --> then God will guide him (God will accept his repentance);
while if he changes his conduct: he becomes hard-hearted and wrong-doer --> God will then misguide him (this one will apostatize), and then will deserve God's punishment in Hell in the afterlife.

So this is the meaning: that God guides whomever He please, and misguides whomever He will: it means : God - be glorified - guides the one worthy of guidance and will reward him, and He misguides the one worthy of misguidance and will punish him.
 

L Gilbert

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If you are the owner of a company or factory, and there are many workers in your factory: their work and efforts are different: some of them are lazy and some work hard; some are cunning and others have good intention and manner, will you then deal with all workers in the same way ?

Of course the good among them will deserve your reward, while the bad will deserve the punishment.
You play god and fire the ones who don't perform. If it was up to employers to make the workers they use, the employers would manufacture good workers, not manufacture bad workers.
So these gods that made everything are abject failures because they manufactured faulty workers.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Of course the good among them will deserve your reward, while the bad will deserve the punishment.
I've been a manager, I once had a staff of 24 people under me, including a couple of bad ones, and that's not how to deal with them. You don't punish the bad or mislead them into being even worse, that's completely counterproductive. You try to find out why they behave as they do and help them get better. That's elementary morality, and if I know that surely god ought to know it too. Your version of god is a nasty, capricious, cruel, heartless bastard. And you wonder why I reject him?
 

Cliffy

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I wonder if it has something to do with the water in the middle east?

Look at India and how colourful and interesting their gods were. They were on some good stuff back then.
 

eanassir

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I've been a manager, I once had a staff of 24 people under me, including a couple of bad ones, and that's not how to deal with them. You don't punish the bad or mislead them into being even worse, that's completely counterproductive. You try to find out why they behave as they do and help them get better.


Don't you know that God is the Most Forgiving, and All-Turning to His servants and the Most Clement: He gives them respite and respite may be to the last moment (including me and you and all people); He gives them opportunities by day: it may be by night they will repent and desist, and by night: it may be by day they may repent; this may be just till the hour before death. When the pangs of death is there, the way to repentance is closed.

Then if that worker transgresses on others and steals their salaries and makes serious troubles to the safety of your factory, or leadd you to big loss and disturb seriously the economy of your factory or directorate, and expose all of you to serious tax payment; you keep smiling in his face: of course this is the top of morality; but be sure God Almighty is the Most Gracious and more Merciful than you whatever you do.

Moreover, He is Strong and Powerful and All-Mighty, and in spite of that, He forgives, turns towards His stubborn servants, and gives Him the opportunity after the opportunity and chance after another and makes their way easy and their life comfortable, and gives them more and more blessings, and they deal with all that with ungratefulness and denial and oppose their Creator who created them from a scanty seminal fluid of their fathers in the wombs of their mothers.

In addition, the kindness of the mother to her child is inserted in her heart by God, and if you have any mercy you said to the couple of workers or others, it is from Him.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Don't you know that God is the Most Forgiving, and All-Turning to His servants and the Most Clement...
No, I don't know that, and neither do you, you simply assume it's true, while at the same time giving the lie to it by arguing that god deliberately misleads to their doom people he doesn't like. Beats me how an apparently intelligent person like yourself can't see the obvious logical flaws in your position.
 

eanassir

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No, I don't know that, and neither do you, you simply assume it's true, while at the same time giving the lie to it by arguing that god deliberately misleads to their doom people he doesn't like. Beats me how an apparently intelligent person like yourself can't see the obvious logical flaws in your position.


No way to argue with you anymore; this is your fortune, and I am quit of your words and your atheism.

This is according to the Quran 11: 34 about Noah and his advising his people:
وَلاَ يَنفَعُكُمْ نُصْحِي إِنْ أَرَدتُّ أَنْ أَنصَحَ لَكُمْ إِن كَانَ اللّهُ يُرِيدُ أَن يُغْوِيَكُمْ هُوَ رَبُّكُمْ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ
The explanation:
([Noah said:]"And my sincere advising will not profit you, if I desire to advise you [more than that I have advised you], if God wills to pervert you [because of your wrong-doing];
He is your Lord, and to His [sentence] you will be returned [after your death.]")
 

AnnaG

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Allah is merciful alright. Think of Bam, Iran in 2003, for instance. Something about an earthquake? The "merciful" and "All Mighty" sent an earthquake to kill and torture thousands.
A merciful being lets the USA and insurgents massacre and maim innocents in Iraq?
 

YukonJack

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It was Allah the merciful that allowed the recent tsunami and earthquake on the largest Islamic Nation in the world.

Oh, the sweet irony!
 

Dexter Sinister

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...I am quit of your words and your atheism.
Good. But really, what's this, about the third or fourth time you've said that to somebody? Yet you keep coming back and trying again, hanging around with infidels (which you've also said you don't do), and preaching your particular version of the argument from authority fallacy. But at least you're not trying to pass it off as science anymore.