The Gathering and the Judgment will be in the space

[L Gilbert]

Perhaps it is in line with it not being with an open mind that has left you spiritually void (nothing was taken from you so don't blame God). Your condemnation of the Holy Bible knows no bounds, from Ge:1 to Re:22 it is complete.

lmao An open mind is willing to accept ideas and things on the basis of evidence, not stubbornly stick to beliefs and faith in magic in the face of it. As Dexter said, citing a book as its own support is hardly valid. And as I have said before, every time science opens something up to observation that religions have stated OPINION on, those religions end up back-pedalling to realign themselves with science so they don't look as silly as they are. And even then there are goofballs like eannasir who reject facts and evidence simply because it's contradictory to his book.

 

[L Gilbert]

Our lifetime??? If worked on full time til our sun is due to toast us we couldn't make it off world, yes that is billions of years. You must be forgetting about the near extinction type of events that will happen during that same time.
LOL In our lifetime we will probable see a decline in real-world advances. For everybody not just the elite.

lol The sun is due to make our planet unliveable in about a half billion years. Obviously you have no grasp on how long that is.
As far as discoveries being made, we have a universe full of them, people will keep investigating and developing things for a long time yet.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Perhaps it is in line with it not being with an open mind that has left you spiritually void (nothing was taken from you so don't blame God). Your condemnation of the Holy Bible knows no bounds, from Ge:1 to Re:22 it is complete.

There you go again, assuming you know things about me you don't, simply because I don't share your views of so-called sacred texts. I don't blame god for anything, I'm convinced he had nothing to do with it, he's not real. Nor do I condemn the Bible, it has its place, what I condemn is the claims people like you and herald and alley make about it, which I think are foolish beyond description. Reading the Bible carefully with a truly open mind is one of the surest routes to atheism. If you start from the premise that it's literally true and the revealed word of a deity, as you three do, you've closed your mind to all other understandings of it, and a lot of other things in this world.

 

[eanassir]

A deal between us: Muslims and the People of the Bible (Jews and Christians)

The deal is to worship God alone without associate, and we should not take patrons (like sages, saints and imams) apart from God Almighty.

Therefore, in case you do not agree, then we are quit of all your enthusiasm, atheism and association with God, and then bear witness that we are Muslims submitting ourselves to God alone.

This is in the Quran 3: 64​

قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى كَلَمَةٍ سَوَاء بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَلاَّ نَعْبُدَ إِلاَّ اللّهَ وَلاَ نُشْرِكَ بِهِ شَيْئًا وَلاَ يَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُنَا بَعْضاً أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَقُولُواْ اشْهَدُواْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ​

The explanation:
(Say [O Mohammed], "O people of the Bible [lit. Scripture: Jews and Christians], come to

a word of agreement between us and you:

· that we shall serve none but God,
· that we shall not associate anything [as an associate] with Him;
· and that none of us shall take others for lords other than God."

But should they turn away [from you and do not submit to God] then say [to them:] "Bear witness that we have surrendered [to God alone.]")​

 

[eanassir]

You have to provide good evidence that the idea is true. Citing the Quran in support of itself doesn't do it. The Quran is just one of many supposedly sacred texts that certain groups of people simply assume to be true and argue on that basis, which is not a logically valid way to proceed. I've read several such texts, including the Quran (long before I encountered you) and the Bible, and found them to be so at variance with other things I know to be true beyond any reasonable doubt in the scientific sense that I reject those texts for most purposes. I'd rejected your ideas, after careful consideration, long before you showed up here to preach them.

From the start you chose wrong choice: so following your desires, you chose to discard all the three heavenly books, and said the Quran is like the other two, and made a collective decision.

What you read in fact is the translation, and even so, it will be the argument against the denier.

The Quran is different from the other books: because it is the revelation from God word by word, while the other books are narrations and life story. Of course, I don't deny that the original Torah and Gospel were marvelous, similar to the Quran, in particular the word of God inscribed on the tablets of stone.

Moreover, the available Torah and Gospel are only the translations from an intermediary source; the original Hebrew Torah and Aramaic Gospel are lost.

Therefore, Dexter, it is your desire that implied on you to choose such anti-religious attitude or skeptic as you called. In other words, you chose what you liked and wished and desired for.


And this is in the Quran 45: 23

أَفَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ وَأَضَلَّهُ اللَّهُ عَلَى عِلْمٍ وَخَتَمَ عَلَى سَمْعِهِ وَقَلْبِهِ وَجَعَلَ عَلَى بَصَرِهِ غِشَاوَةً فَمَن يَهْدِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ اللَّهِ أَفَلَا تَذَكَّرُونَ​

The explanation:
(Have you considered him who takes as his god according to his desires, ​

and God leads him astray in spite of having knowledge[or science], ​

and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart, and has placed upon his eyesight a covering? ​

Who then shall guide him after God [misguided him?] ​

Will you not then reflect?)​

-----------------------------------------------

I tell you this: you said that you read the translation of the meaning of the Quran, and you found it not worthy so you discarded it; therefore, tell me how then do people spent all their time studying and investigating the meaning of the Glorious Quran and they did not yet reach to the depth of all its wisdom and the included knowledge, and you only went over its pages of the translation (for few hours or few days) and said it is worthless?

Read again the translation of its meaning, from the start (although the age and time is passing on all of us) and if you need any question about any aya, I may tell you according to the late inspired interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan - salam be on his soul:

Read at least the translation of the meaning of the Quran by a non-Muslim translator: A J Arberry
http://mlivo.com/translations/Arberry.htm

Moreover, the Quran agrees with the pricipal bases of the heavenly books (particularly the Ten Commandments, especially concerning the monotheism and devotion to God alone without associate, son or patron),

but the Quran differs in many points, because it came to correct the mistakes and the distortions that took place in such books of the Bible.

In addition, the Quran includes the proofs and arguments and evidences and give the explanation and the correct answer to much of their questions.

 

[eanassir]

Now comes Gilb the winterized with all his insisting on atheism and skepticism claiming all that is science and open-mindedness.

Why don't you have open mind and understand what the Quran says and it includes many evidences and proofs and arguments, many of them in the form of parables and others in the form of many ayat that dumb the disbelievr.

If there is any goofball, it is you; and you make some propaganda? to Dexter: so while your style and ideas are the same as this Dexter; it may be you and he are copies of the same person, or you are his mirror image

 

[Cliffy]

All these books were written by men, so they are not reliable sources of anything. I decided to go to the source to find out what the truth was and guess what? It is all BS, The Qoran, the Bible and the Torah. There is no god that is going to fry our asses because we don't bow down and kiss his ass every day. Eanassir, you, Mhz, Herald, Alley and Coldstream are all wasting your lives on this crap.

Perhaps some supreme being created the Universe and perhaps it is the Universe itself but it certainly is not so insecure that it needs your insignificant praise and adoration to feel appreciated. It has more important things to do than to be concerned with the petty activities and thoughts of a bunch of idiots on an obscure planet lost in this infinite Universe.

 

[eanassir]

Of course these books were written by men: these books are the word of God revealed to His servants the apostles and prophets, they conveyed them to people who wrote them down.

Certainly I and all others are so trivial in comparison to the tremendous God's creation, but God has honored me by His guidance, and He is not unaware of and will not neglect His servants and creatures.

 

[YukonJack]

Re #53.

An illiterate dictating to another illiterate can be considered a holy book or a classic only by fellow, modern day illiterate. Or those desperately stuck in 12th century barbarism.

Anyone "marrying" a nine-year-old is a pathetic pedophile.

No self-respecting woman would ever share a husband. Not a normal one, anyways.

Any "prophet" who is so bloody insecure in in his own teachings that he has to promote the destruction of any and all who disagree with him, is surely the spawn of Satan.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I tell you this: you said that you read the translation of the meaning of the Quran, and you found it not worthy so you discarded it; therefore, tell me how then do people spent all their time studying and investigating the meaning of the Glorious Quran and they did not yet reach to the depth of all its wisdom and the included knowledge, and you only went over its pages of the translation (for few hours or few days) and said it is worthless?

It was several months, and several different translations, not that it matters. The number of people who believe something to be true has nothing to do with whether it's actually true, and the effort people put into studying the Quran is not relevant to its truth content.

 

[eanassir]

It was several months, and several different translations, not that it matters.

No, that does matter; because you tell people that you studied the Quran and found it not worthy.

The number of people who believe something to be true has nothing to do with whether it's actually true, and the effort people put into studying the Quran is not relevant to its truth content.

I told you that only to explain that the Quran has deep meanings and implication.

And take into consideration that the translation is not the Quran itself, but only its interpretation in another language, and if the interpreter does not understand the meaning or does only grasp part of the meaning then his translation will be defective.

Therefore, if many ayat have many meanings, and a large number of such ayat are ambiguous even to interpreters, then how can the translator transmit the meaning exactly?

Example: this aya
42: 7

وَكَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّتُنذِرَ أُمَّ الْقُرَى وَمَنْ حَوْلَهَا وَتُنذِرَ يَوْمَ الْجَمْعِ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ فَرِيقٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَفَرِيقٌ فِي السَّعِيرِ​

The explanation:

([Just as had We inspired into the apostles before you, Mohammed, in the languages of their peoples], as such have We inspired into you an Arabic Quran that you may warn [Mecca:] the mother-city [: the capital or the central and most important city] and those [dwelling] about it, and that you may warn of the Day of Gathering, wherein is no doubt – a party [will be in Paradise and a party in the Blaze. )​

So here if the translator translates literally it will be: the mother of cities; while it is not like that, but it means the capital or the most important among all cities. This is only an example; because the word أم means: mother, the worm of vinegar, the essence of anything in addition to many other meanings.
The indication of this is in another aya 28: 59

وَمَا كَانَ رَبُّكَ مُهْلِكَ الْقُرَى حَتَّى يَبْعَثَ فِي أُمِّهَا رَسُولًا يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِنَا وَمَا كُنَّا مُهْلِكِي الْقُرَى إِلَّا وَأَهْلُهَا ظَالِمُونَ​

The explanation:

(Yet [O Mohammed] your Lord never destroyed cities until He sent into their capital a messenger, to rehearse Our revelations to them;

and We never destroyed the cities unless that their people were wrong-doers.)​

So if the translator does not know this meaning, he will translate it:until He sent into their mother a messenger. And so on.

 

[petros]

In our lifetime we will probable see a decline in real-world advances. For everybody not just the elite.

The knowledge we have have now is a mere pittance of the knowledge that has been lost, forgotten, destroyed or hidden.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

And take into consideration that the translation is not the Quran itself, but only its interpretation in another language, and if the interpreter does not understand the meaning or does only grasp part of the meaning then his translation will be defective.

Yes, I understand all that, the same difficulties beset biblical translators. But it seems self-evident to me that if god really wanted to get a message to us in writing, he could have made a much better job of it than delivering such an ambiguous document, in medieval Arabic, to an unlettered tradesman, in the middle of nowhere. That guarantees the message is always going to be unavailable to the vast majority of the worlds people, which is just one thread in a larger argument that's convinced me your beliefs are false.

 

[L Gilbert]

Now comes Gilb the winterized with all his insisting on atheism and skepticism claiming all that is science and open-mindedness.

Why don't you have open mind and understand what the Quran says and it includes many evidences and proofs and arguments, many of them in the form of parables and others in the form of many ayat that dumb the disbelievr.

If there is any goofball, it is you; and you make some propaganda? to Dexter: so while your style and ideas are the same as this Dexter; it may be you and he are copies of the same person, or you are his mirror image

Any "science" I've seen you post here has been demonstrably wrong. I'm not open-minded enough to swallow erroneous "science". Not only that, your interpretation of it leaves a lot to be desired.
How's the witchdoctor business going these days? Do you have spare bones in case the one stuck through your nose gets lost or breaks? Spare grass skirts? Spare rattles?

 

[L Gilbert]

Of course these books were written by men: these books are the word of God revealed to His servants the apostles and prophets, they conveyed them to people who wrote them down.

Certainly I and all others are so trivial in comparison to the tremendous God's creation, but God has honored me by His guidance, and He is not unaware of and will not neglect His servants and creatures.

lol Do you believe everything that men write?

 

[Kreskin]

God created the universe but he couldn't hire a good translator. Some things are just too difficult.

 

[L Gilbert]

God created the universe but he couldn't hire a good translator. Some things are just too difficult.

If I was a god, I'd probably be able to scribble down what I wanted to say in a book just by wishing it. And I'd make it so it was self-translating into whatever language whoever wanted to read it in.
All these gods sure had no imagination if this is the best that they could do.

 

[eanassir]

But it seems self-evident to me that if god really wanted to get a message to us in writing, he could have made a much better job of it than delivering such an ambiguous document, in medieval Arabic, to an unlettered tradesman, in the middle of nowhere.

The Quran is in Arabic and its explanation in many languages

If the apostle is Hebrew, will the revelation be in English or French? How can this be the apostle speaks Arabic, and his book is revealed in English?

This is in the Quran 41: 44​

وَلَوْ جَعَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا أَعْجَمِيًّا لَّقَالُوا لَوْلَا فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ أَأَعْجَمِيٌّ وَعَرَبِيٌّ قُلْ هُوَ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا هُدًى وَشِفَاء وَالَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ فِي آذَانِهِمْ وَقْرٌ وَهُوَ عَلَيْهِمْ عَمًى أُوْلَئِكَ يُنَادَوْنَ مِن مَّكَانٍ بَعِيدٍ​

The explanation:
(Had We appointed it a Quran in a foreign [language], they would have said:
"Why are not its revelations expounded [in Arabic]?
How could [the Quran] be in a foreign [language], and [the messenger be] an Arab?"

Say [O Mohammed to them]: "[The Quran], to those who believe, is guidance and healing, [whereas] those who unbelieve have deafness in their ears, and it is blindness for them.

Such [associaters] will be summoned from a far place [because they will remain on Earth, and the Crier: the angel will be in the space].)
----------------------------------------------------------------

But the Quran is in fluent eloquent Arabic, then its meaning may be explained to various nations by men knowing different languages and they transmit the meaning to other languages, in addition to preserving the original revelation in its original Arabic language.​

 

[YukonJack]

enassir, no matter how my words might offend you, it is nothing compared how Muslims offend all Christians by degrading Jesus and bringing Him down to the level of Mohammed, by claiming that He is but a Prophet.

 

[eanassir]

But it seems self-evident to me that if god really wanted to get a message to us in writing, he could have made a much better job of it than delivering such an ambiguous document, in medieval Arabic, to an unlettered tradesman, in the middle of nowhere.

​

The basal part of the Quran is plain

The Quran is plain: its essence or its main part is plain, and some of its revelations or ayat are ambiguous which will be explained in the future.

The believer follows the plain ayat of the Quran [which he knows], and believes that both the plain and the ambiguous are from God – be glorified- although he does not know the meaning of the ambiguous ayat [until they will later be interpreted.]

This is in the Quran 3: 7​

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ ... ​

The explanation:
([God] is He Who has revealed to you [Prophet] the Book [: the Quran] some of which being 'precise' [or plain] ayat; they are the essence of the Book,
[whereas] others being 'similitudes'.
But those, in whose hearts is a deviation [from the truth]; these follow the 'similitudes' therein: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away], and seeking to interpret it. But none but God [only] does know its interpretation …)
-----------------------------------------------------
So while He revealed the Quran in Arabic because the apostle and his people are the Arab.
It is not the single factor is that the revealed book available in Arabic: in fluent language style:

but the important thing is that guidance is up to God alone. And in fact some non-Arab converted on hearing the Quran read in Arabic when they do not understand Arabic.

In addition, the interpretation of the ambiguous ayat will be a new revelation, which will give them more fields of knowledge and wisdom, in addition to explaining many scientific facts and correcting many wrong ideas attributed to science.
​

​