The early Quran revelations

[Torch light]

You call that logic? If your choice is constrained by what the tester already knows to be true, you don't have the freedom to choose, you have only an illusion of it because you don't know a priori what you're going to choose. And what possible difference is there between misguiding the wrong doer and misguiding the wrong doer into wrong doing? He's obviously not guiding him into doing right, so what is he guiding him into?

You don't want to be convinced; only want to object; for this reason, you select this topic of the free will of man and the obligation by God.
Therefore, this subject has been clearly explained by the Quran interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, salam to him.

So I repeat and iterate that God guides whoever deserves the guidance and misguides whoever deserves the misguidance.

People are two categories: some of them are modest, kind-hearted and good doers to parents, to neighbors, to the poor and weak ... God likes such features and will guide such people to know Him and fear Him and to work more righteousness and give them more guidance.
The other category are those who transgress on others and trespass the rights of people particularly the weak and poor among them, in addition to their arrogance and wickedness ... God dislikes such features of such people and so He will misguide them: and they may not know Him, neither give gratitude for His bounties, and He will leave them to Satan and the devils to confuse them and prevent them from giving charity and from doing any good work.

Generally, people have the free choice or else they will not be judged justly, but the prophets and the guides are obliged or moved by God for the happiness of people.

Quran 2: 26-27, which mean:
(26. Surely God is not ashamed to say a parable [about insects and other animals] whatsoever, [even about] a tiny mosquito and anything superior to it.
As for those who believe, they know that the [Quran] is the truth [coming] from their Lord [and these parables are not forged by Mohammed];
but as for those [Jews] who disbelieve [in the Quran], they say: 'What is it that God means by this [insect] as a parable?’

He misleads many thereby and thereby guides many d;
thereby He only misleads evildoers e.

[Then God started to dispriase Jews, and He said:]
27. Those who break God's covenant after ratifying it,
and sever that [kinship] which God ordered to be joined,
and make mischief in the earth [by sedition, road robbery and barring those who believe in Mohammed]:
Such are the losers [who lose themselves and their families for that they exchange hell for propserity.])
............................................................................................................................................................................

d Because people are two kinds: righteous and evil-doers:
The righteous has good manners: he is truthful, generous, merciful, compassionate with the needy, and is not proud over the weak.
While the evil-doer is the opposite of that: liar, over-proud, wrong-doer, transgressor, slanderer and stingy; and even if he does not have all these manners, he at least has some of them.
So the righteous will follow the plain ayat of the Quran and will be guided, and will leave the ambiguous ayat to God's knowledge;
while the evil-doer will disregard the plain ayat and object to the ambiguous ayat: and will be misguided by such ayat.

Therefore, as in the aya, many people follow the ambiguous ayat and will be misguided by such ayat, and many people will be guided to the truth by following the plain ayat without resorting to the ambiguous ayat.

e who have bad manners.

The complete explanation of these ayat is here:

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/2.htm#a2_26

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You don't want to be convinced..

That's got nothing to do with it. What I want or don't want doesn't enter into it, you consistently claim these are matters of fact, and facts speak for themselves. If you can offer convincing evidence and arguments in support of your claims, I'll be convinced. I don't think you know what good evidence or a good argument would be (it isn't waving the Quran and al-Hilly's interpretation of it around and quoting from them), but aside from that, you haven't done it, and in fact can't. There is no evidence or argument you can put forward that couldn't be applied with equal facility to any of the religions humanity has invented, and I'm sure you'd agree they're all wrong. So is yours, and for the same reasons. All you've got, all you've ever had, is the argument from authority fallacy.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

That's got nothing to do with it. What I want or don't want doesn't enter into it, you consistently claim these are matters of fact, and facts speak for themselves. If you can offer convincing evidence and arguments in support of your claims, I'll be convinced. I don't think you know what good evidence or a good argument would be (it isn't waving the Quran and al-Hilly's interpretation of it around and quoting from them), but aside from that, you haven't done it, and in fact can't. There is no evidence or argument you can put forward that couldn't be applied with equal facility to any of the religions humanity has invented, and I'm sure you'd agree they're all wrong. So is yours, and for the same reasons. All you've got, all you've ever had, is the argument from authority fallacy.

Well, no. There's also a bit of argument from antiquity fallacy in there.

 

[Torch light]

That's got nothing to do with it. What I want or don't want doesn't enter into it, you consistently claim these are matters of fact, and facts speak for themselves. If you can offer convincing evidence and arguments in support of your claims, I'll be convinced. I don't think you know what good evidence or a good argument would be (it isn't waving the Quran and al-Hilly's interpretation of it around and quoting from them), but aside from that, you haven't done it, and in fact can't. There is no evidence or argument you can put forward that couldn't be applied with equal facility to any of the religions humanity has invented, and I'm sure you'd agree they're all wrong. So is yours, and for the same reasons. All you've got, all you've ever had, is the argument from authority fallacy.

You say you will be convinced, but in fact you don't like to be convinced, and so you will not yield to any logic.
In fact, I give the evidence which you disregard, and I give the argument of the Quran which is full of arguments and examples, and I give the evidence of the interpretation of the Quran which is full of evidence, and I confirm my words by the blessed ayat of the Quran which you abhor .. so what will I do to you, and you dislike the Quran!?.. Almost you will keep to your misguidance, unless God may guide you, but you may not until you perish as infidel and disbeliever, unless you at last save yourself which I doubt ..

Quran 15: 91-93, which mean:
(91. Those who considered the Quran as 'spiky thorns.' g
92. But [O Mohammed] by your Lord! We will question them all.
93. About what they did. h}
.....................................................................................................................................................................

g i.e. they have considered the Quran like the 'spiky thorn‘ : as if it hurts them, falsifies their opinions and disproves their creeds. While God has made it as an admonition and mercy for them.
h So that the disbeliever will be questioned in a way of rebuking and censuring, while the believer will be questioned in a way of judgment, and the prophets will be questioned about their conveying of the message, and every responsible one will be questioned about those whom he was responsible about.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/15.htm#a15_91

 

[Ron in Regina]

You don't want to be convinced; only want to object; for this reason, you select this topic of the free will of man and the obligation by God.
Therefore, this subject has been clearly explained by the Quran interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, salam to him.

That's got nothing to do with it. What I want or don't want doesn't enter into it, you consistently claim these are matters of fact, and facts speak for themselves. If you can offer convincing evidence and arguments in support of your claims, I'll be convinced. I don't think you know what good evidence or a good argument would be (it isn't waving the Quran and al-Hilly's interpretation of it around and quoting from them), but aside from that, you haven't done it, and in fact can't.

Torch light, I believe Dexter Sinister (& pretty much anyone else that isn’t already a muslim), is looking for you, in your own words like an unbrainwashed adult who is capable of free thought….to provide any evidence or logic for your recruiting effort that isn’t recycled & regurgitated from the Quran or Mohammed-Ali-Hassan Al-Hilly’s version & interpretation of the Quran.

You say you will be convinced, but in fact you don't like to be convinced, and so you will not yield to any logic.

He, & everyone else here, is waiting on you to provide this logic, from anywhere but the Quran or Mister Billy’s interpretation of the Quran. What do YOU think? What evidence can YOU provide from ANY OTHER SOURSE than Mr. Hilly’s version of what he thinks you should believe from the Quran?

In fact, I give the evidence which you disregard, and I give the argument of the Quran which is full of arguments and examples, and I give the evidence of the interpretation of the Quran which is full of evidence, and I confirm my words by the blessed ayat of the Quran which you abhor .. so what will I do to you, and you dislike the Quran!?…………

Habibi, can you not see the mental trap you are stuck in? Again, what do YOU think? Not Mohammad Ali-etc…or the Quran, but YOU! What evidence or logic can YOU provide? YOU Youself, or from ANY Other Source?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I give the evidence which you disregard, and I give the argument of the Quran which is full of arguments and examples, and I give the evidence of the interpretation of the Quran which is full of evidence, and I confirm my words by the blessed ayat of the Quran which you abhor

Arguments and examples from the Quran, and al Hilly's interpretations of them, say nothing about the truth of those arguments and examples. You can't cite a book in support of its claims, that's the fallacy of self reference, you can only report what the claims are, other evidence external to the Quran is required for proof. All promoters of truth claims in scriptures make that mistake. And given some of the completely crackpot claims al Hilly makes, that you keep repeating, I wouldn't take any interpretations of his seriously. I haven't read his whole book, I've got better things to do, but what I have read suggests that most of the time he hasn't a clue what he's talking about.

. so what will I do to you,

You can't do anything to me.

and you dislike the Quran!?..

You seem incapable of understanding anyone's perspective but your own. I don't dislike the Quran. I don't like it either, it hasn't much to recommend it, the fact is I don't care enough about it to bother liking or disliking it. It's just one of the many books that aren't worth reading more than once. Anyone who's read the Jewish and Christian scriptures will immediately recognize that large parts of the Quran are plagiarized from them. It needs to be read by anyone who wants to understand what's going on in today's world, because so many people take it so seriously and use it to guide their thoughts and actions, but it's really very derivative, repetitive, and boring. It may be sublime poetry in the original Arabic for all I know (though I strongly doubt it), but it seems rather foolish of Allah to provide a new revelation in a form that's not accessible to most of the world's people. Maybe you could explain that, you do sometimes claim to know something of what motivates him.

 

[Torch light]

Arguments and examples from the Quran, and al Hilly's interpretations of them, say nothing about the truth of those arguments and examples.

This is your fallacy: I invite to the argument of the Quran and its interpretation; so go and discuss that, unless your pride over God and His revelations prevents you.

You can't cite a book in support of its claims, that's the fallacy of self reference,

I can tell you the evidence, then bring the Quran as a confirmation.
Your mistake: The way in which I or anyone makes a mistake is to cite the argument then tell others: it is true because it is in such papers or books; of course this is wrong.
But it is different in my case: I give the argument which is the argument of the Quran and its interpretation.
i.e. the Quran proves the argument more than I prove: the Quran explains it in better way than I do.
So my argument and the argument of the Quran is the same one; or I try that my argument is the argument of the Quran.
Therefore, your insisting on this point explains much: and I reiterate: I only give the argument of the Quran.

Then if you are just, discuss the argument of the Quran of God and don't be proud over it, claiming you have more important things to do; while the Quran guides to every good in this life in addition to every good in the Next Life.
And he will lose, the one occupied by the affairs of this life of the World, and he disregards the lasting inevitable Next Life.

 

[Torch light]

About the arguments of the Quran, I cite this great aya of the Quran 25: 33, which means:
(And they bring you [Mohammed] no argument g but We bring you the true [answer h as against it], and a better explanation [and exposure of the meaning.])
..............................................................................................................................................................................................

g With which they dispute against you so as to falsify your message and to contradict you.
h Which disproves and refutes their arguments.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/25.htm#a25_33

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You continue to miss the point. You cannot cite the Quran as proof of itself, that's not a legitimate argument. It's no different in principle from me claiming that whatever I say is true because I say it's true. I'm sure you'd recognize that as an illegitimate argument, and your arguments in support of the Quran are no different. For instance, you claim "...the Quran guides to every good in this life in addition to every good in the Next Life." You need to show that to be true by some means other than citing the Quran in support of it, otherwise you're just trying to prove it's true by assuming it to be true, another fallacy called begging the question.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You continue to miss the point. You cannot cite the Quran as proof of itself, that's not a legitimate argument. It's no different in principle from me claiming that whatever I say is true because I say it's true. I'm sure you'd recognize that as an illegitimate argument, and your arguments in support of the Quran are no different. For instance, you claim "...the Quran guides to every good in this life in addition to every good in the Next Life." You need to show that to be true by some means other than citing the Quran in support of it, otherwise you're just trying to prove it's true by assuming it to be true, another fallacy called begging the question.

It MUST be the truth. It says so right on the cover!

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture."
--Thomas Paine

 

[Torch light]

You continue to miss the point. You cannot cite the Quran as proof of itself, that's not a legitimate argument. It's no different in principle from me claiming that whatever I say is true because I say it's true. I'm sure you'd recognize that as an illegitimate argument, and your arguments in support of the Quran are no different. For instance, you claim "...the Quran guides to every good in this life in addition to every good in the Next Life." You need to show that to be true by some means other than citing the Quran in support of it, otherwise you're just trying to prove it's true by assuming it to be true, another fallacy called begging the question.

It is useless to discuss anything with you, while you refuse every advice, and your outcome will be very bad in the Next Life as also at last in this life of the World (if you keep to the same disbelief.)
You like to wrangle; in fact your points are not correct completely.

 

[Torch light]

It MUST be the truth. It says so right on the cover!

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture."
--Thomas Paine

I only tell about the argument of the Quran, but I cannot convert anyone whether atheist or idolater unless God Himself likes to guide him, and His plan is that He does not guide all people, but will misguide the wrong-doer and guide the good-doer.
Jesus Christ also said about the same meaning in one of his parables:
Like a sower who sows some seeds: if it falls in a good land, it yields; if it falls in a salty land, it will not grow.

This is in the Quran 32: 13, which means:
(If We had so willed, We could have given to every soul its guidance, but My due word was pronounced in truth: "Certainly, I will fill Hell with [the wrong-doers of] the genie-kind and the man-kind altogether.")

More explanation:

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/32.htm#a32_13

Therefore, if anyone likes to be guided, let him repent from his wrong-doing and trespassing the rights of people and repent from sins, and ask God's forgiveness and He will be guided God's willing.

 

[Torch light]

How could any wise man deny God the Creator [: the atheism], and how could anyone equalize God Almighty with any being or anything [: the idolatry]?

Today, I talked to a young man; I said to him: Do you see the trees in that near garden? They are moving with the wind; it is God Who moves them.
The man agreed.
Then I said: It is God Who brings the sun from the east every morning.
If you see the stars of the sky: they are almost suns with planets and worlds full of people and other created beings, and God is All-Aware and All-Knowing about all this creation.
God knows the secret thoughts of every man and even more than man can know about his own secrets and his motives.
The man said: Glory to God Almighty and Most Gracious.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It is useless to discuss anything with you, while you refuse every advice, and your outcome will be very bad in the Next Life as also at last in this life of the World (if you keep to the same disbelief.)
You like to wrangle; in fact your points are not correct completely.

It's useless to discuss anything with you too, you're blind to reality. Your advice is ill-founded, there is no next life, this one is all there is, your Allah is a human invention with no reality outside the realm of ideas, and that young man you claim to have spoken to today is an ignorant idiot if he believes that crap you offered him. "How could any wise man deny God the Creator?" Easy; there's no good evidence he exists.

 

[taxslave]

How could any wise man deny God the Creator [: the atheism], and how could anyone equalize God Almighty with any being or anything [: the idolatry]?

Today, I talked to a young man; I said to him: Do you see the trees in that near garden? They are moving with the wind; it is God Who moves them.
The man agreed.
Then I said: It is God Who brings the sun from the east every morning.
If you see the stars of the sky: they are almost suns with planets and worlds full of people and other created beings, and God is All-Aware and All-Knowing about all this creation.
God knows the secret thoughts of every man and even more than man can know about his own secrets and his motives.
The man said: Glory to God Almighty and Most Gracious.

Have you got to the part where Mohamed admits to humping sheep?

 

[Torch light]

It's useless to discuss anything with you too, you're blind to reality. Your advice is ill-founded, there is no next life, this one is all there is, your Allah is a human invention with no reality outside the realm of ideas, and that young man you claim to have spoken to today is an ignorant idiot if he believes that crap you offered him. "How could any wise man deny God the Creator?" Easy; there's no good evidence he exists.

I quit myself of your disbelief and atheism and your insisting on it.
On the contrary: God is True and all evidence and proofs indicate Him, and the Next Life is true and inevitable where there will be the dealing with all people according to their belief and their work and conduct.
The atheist is the idiot in fact, who will lose the prosperity of Paradise in Heaven.

Quran 67: 29, which means:
(Say, [Mohammed, to the disbelievers]:
"It is He the Most Gracious: we have believed in Him [alone, as having no associate nor any son or daughter],
and in Him we put [all] our trust [in preaching the religion of the Islam];
then [O disbelievers, after your death] you, will know which [of us] is in manifest error [: we or you.])

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/67.htm#a67_29

 

[Dexter Sinister]

By your own arguments it's Allah who's deliberately misguiding me into error, nothing I can do about it anyway unless and until he chooses to remove the scales from my eyes. The fault is his, so when you next see him, you can tell him that I think he's a mean, nasty, judgmental, vain, jealous, character altogether unworthy of any degree of worship or respect. Any human who behaves as you claim he does would be labelled a sociopath at best.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

By your own arguments it's Allah who's deliberately misguiding me into error, nothing I can do about it anyway unless and until he chooses to remove the scales from my eyes. The fault is his, so when you next see him, you can tell him that I think he's a mean, nasty, judgmental, vain, jealous, character altogether unworthy of any degree of worship or respect. Any human who behaves as you claim he does would be labelled a sociopath at best.

Yep, same problem as those sects who believe in a "divine elect." If one is assigned to the divine elect, one may as well sin away with gusto, as it is Gawd's plan that you will be redeemed before you die. And if you are not assigned to the divine elect, no amount of faith or good works will save you, so why bother?

Similarly, if everything that happens is the will of Allah, then our infidelity is Allah's will. We wouldn't want to be (and are not able to be) disobedient to Allah's holy will.

I figure our job is to strengthen Torchy's blind faith.

 

[Torch light]

By your own arguments it's Allah who's deliberately misguiding me into error, ...

[God – be glorified – dispraised the man arrogant over Him and His messenger, and the man ungrateful to the bounties of his Lord, and He said in the Quran 80: 17-23 :]
17. Cursed be man a! How ungrateful b [to the bounties of God] he is!
18. Of what thing has He created him?
19. From a ‘scanty seminal fluid’ has He created him, [to become a fetus in the womb of his mother] and decreed to him c.
20. And has made the way [of living] easy to him. d
21. Then He causes him to die, then to be buried in a grave.
22. Then if He wills, He may resurrect him. e
23. No, [He wills not to resurrect him; because] he has not carried out [the duties f, to] which [God] has commanded him.
.......................................................................................................................................................................................

a Who rebels against God and His messenger, and is ungrateful to the bounties of his Lord.
b i.e. his blasphemy, ingratitude and denial of his Lord’s bounties are tremendous.
c To stay in his mother’s womb for nine months or less than that, and He decreed the fetus to be a male of a female, decreed how many years he will live in the life of the World, and decreed for him other good or evil in a way of testing and trial when he will become an adult.

More explanation:

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/80.htm#a80_17

 

[Torch light]

By your own arguments it's Allah who's deliberately misguiding me into error, nothing I can do about it anyway unless and until he chooses to remove the scales from my eyes.

My words might only entice you into more atheism and blasphemy, and you started to repeat the words of the ugly atheist Dawkins.

Therefore, I will not speak to you any words, but only these last words from the Quran 76: 31, which means:

(He [will] admit, into His mercy [: His Paradise], whomever He [will] please [if he is not a wrong-doer.]
As for the wrong-doers, He has prepared for them a painful torment [in the Next Life.])

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/76.htm#a76_31