The Denial Machine (global warming?)

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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The reality is that we can't swear off hydrocarbons. They will have to play a key role in our energy needs for a long time yet. There is no reason however that we can't or shouldn't increase our use in renewables and nuclear reactors. Unfortunately it looks like fusion is still a long ways off in the distance. Even with the use of petroleum products, there are techniques out there which we can use to minimize the pollution produced. I don't know how most Albertans feel about the tar sands, I personally am not a big fan because of the water consumed. The Athabasca is allready shrinking, and further pressure is only going to compound the effects.
 

gearheaded1

Never stop questioning
Oct 21, 2006
100
1
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Alberta
Go 'fer oil

Having lived and working in the oil sands, Fort McMurryites and Albertans think the oil sands are the best thing since sliced bread. And for the most part I tend to agree, mostly for the self-sufficiency of the North American energy market demand aspect though.

I'm not particularly keen on having northern Alberta under the scientific microscope, but it's certainly better to develop local assets than to maintain the adventurisms of resource protection going on now. Would we be that interested in the "furthering of democracy" in the middle east, if it wasn't so rich in dinosaur juice? Don't think so.

On a relative basis the amount of water demand in the oil sand extraction process isn't as intensive as the media makes it out to be. 90% of the water used is recycled in the process, which isn't bad considering... most of oil sand development actually is an exercise in water management rather than getting the oil out technology.

The spin-off effect for Canadian jobs and world stability is great, so I'm a fan. It still doesn't solve the Earth's craving of the high of petroleum, but let's work on one problem at a time.

Sitting quietly beneath the earth's crust in norther Saskatchewan, is one of the planet's richest sources of uranium. In more ways than one, Canada's going to be the earth's energy future for a long time to come.

Notice, I say Canada not Alberta. No time to delve into the equalization topic now, but stay tuned.

Perspectives?
 

temperance

Electoral Member
Sep 27, 2006
622
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"I do however believe that conservation and development can exist on a large scale, it will take some more thoughtfullness and tougher legislation from governments and acceptance from industry to get on with it"

Which will happen if and when they firgure out how to make the most money off it --just like when they replaced ciggrette
revenues with casinos revenuses .It was like Casinos cropped up and the non smoking campaign began simutaniusly
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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Virtually all scientists agree that climate change is occuring and it is man-made.

"Virtually all" economists say that free trade is a good idea. And the economists use econometric statistical sampling techniques similar to the ones used to verify global warming to support their case.

So if we base our opinions on the beliefs of experts - which is a pretty good idea - all the people who say we should listen to the scientists should listen to the economists as well.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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Thirty years ago we were going into an ice age, now the same scientists are calling for global warming. They sound much like weather forecasters and should probably be given the same amout of heed to there opinions.
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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"Virtually all" economists say that free trade is a good idea. And the economists use econometric statistical sampling techniques similar to the ones used to verify global warming to support their case.

So if we base our opinions on the beliefs of experts - which is a pretty good idea - all the people who say we should listen to the scientists should listen to the economists as well.
What is your opinion on the effects of things like the Kyoto Protocol on the economy, from an economists perpective?
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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I have always thought to bring the auto industry and the great god of oil down.....by any country.... would significantly change the world global markets... perhaps in favor of those nations who are not at
the top of the heap.

I also wonder if that is not the goal of the U.N. - to turn 180 and bring down the giants. Fear and global warming is but one method. Think about it: It isn't ALL about global warming.

What they don't seem to understand at the U.N. is instead of spending great gobs of money on global warming, why don't they spend great gobs of money investing in alternative energy and transportation right now.... there are already manufacturing ideas on the market..... but they don't seem to pay much
attention to positive things in the U.N. - only punitive sanctions and pointing fingers.

A totally useless institution which also is too expensive for the non-good it does.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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What is your opinion on the effects of things like the Kyoto Protocol on the economy, from an economists perpective?

Just to clarify, I'm not an economist.

Joke - What's an economist? An accountant without the personality.

But from an economics standpoint, the Kyoto Accord and any attempt to reduce greenhouse gases will have a negative effect on the economy in the near and intermediate term because it will raise the costs of energy, which is an input into the economy. There are a few studies that Kyoto will be good for the economy because it will encourage investment in energy alternatives, and the spin off effects of that research will benefit. That is true to some extent. However, the cost of energy in Europe is as much as twice that in America, and in Europe, the economic benefits from research into alternative energy sources has not produced at least twice the benefits to offset the higher cost of energy. In fact, I think America is pouring as much into alternative research energy as Europe. (And, if you think alternative energy is a winner long term, you can invest in an alternative energy exchange traded fund. Google "alternative energy ETF" and the fund will pop up.)

Longer-term, its not so clear. The British government released a study last month that argues not doing anything about global warming would detract from the economy. I have not read it, so I can't comment on it, though I have seen some economists in the blogosphere take issue with some of the assumptions.

The problem with the whole global warming thing is that it is difficult to ascertain the costs

Two years ago, a group of the world’s most respected economists, including Nobel Laureate and FREE’s 2003 Summer Scholar Thomas Schelling, were posed with a question: Given significant but finite resources, what are the best investments for improving our world? They chose clean water, public health, primary education (especially of girls), and inexpensive dietary improvements.

Addressing global warming didn’t make the cut. Why not? It could consume all the funds while producing uncertain rewards in the far distant future. Instead, these funds could be invested in developing economies. By attracting foreign capital, poor nations could gain economic resiliency, the surest route to a better future.

The experiment with economists was recently replicated by John Bolton, U.S. Ambassador to the UN. Not one to shrink from controversy, he empanelled UN diplomats from seven emerging nations, including India and China, to prioritize the issues. After hearing from experts in the problem areas, they ranked global crises ranging from climate change to migration. The top four were again health care, water and sanitation, education, and child nutrition. Climate change was, of course, dead last. No honest policy analyst would be surprised by these rankings.

While most agree that climate change is occurring, many proposed “solutions” are monumentally expensive, uncertain, and distant. They are, in sum, the sorriest of investments. Providing vitamin A, on the other hand, costs less than $1 per person per year, saves lives, and prevents childhood blindness. Encouraging breast feeding cheaply and effectively promotes infant health. These nutritional initiatives do not, however, offer a stage for pretense and drama. No matter how skilled the movie director, it’s hard to make public health reform a sexy issue.
http://www.free-eco.org/articleDisplay.php?id=513

But that's from an economic standpoint. Obviously, there are other considerations.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Ok, I might just be suffering from some sort of information over load today, did you type this in a post in my "A question for Americans" thread?

"I talk to economists every single day. I read volumes of economic literature. I have a degree in economics."

Doesn't that degree sorta make you an economist? I could be wrong, I just wanna be sure, lol.

Regardless, thanx for that post, it was amazing and gave me much more to think about. I expect as much from you.

I'm still trying to figure out how you could get banned.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Global warming is a myth. It is only an illusion that glaciers all over the world have melted. It is a lie that for the fifteenth year we've had the warmest year on record. That Greenland's sheet ice, that has been there, and not melted for thousands of years, has, and is melting means nothing. The melting and erosion of hundred thousand year old ice packs on both poles is likely meaningless. That polar bears are drowning trying to swim to the retreating ice packs is not really happening...very much. That Pine Beatles and other tree eating insects are moving north where they haven't been before, is just another coincidence. All this evidence is .probably junk science. Repeat after me, "Global warming is not happening", "Global warming is not happening". George W. Bush told me so.

A couple of points........

The first being I'm not sure anyone that can be taken seriously is proposing that global warming is not happening. What some folks are questioning is how much influence mankind has on the process.

Secondly, I think there is some argument about the proper way to proceed.............I'm not sure we can stop the process, nor am I sure we can even slow it down. Fossil fuels are not going away soon. Fact. So, we'd best start looking to ways to slowly limit there use (alternatives) AND at ways to deal with the changes that WILL be coming as the earth warms. If we STOPPED using fossil fuels NOW would the warming slow? Who knows?

3. One should remember that the Americans have done MUCH better than Canada in limiting GHGs, no matter what GWB says. Also, one should remember the Americans are on the cutting edge of solar technology............as well as other alternatives. The fact they HAVEN'T bought into the idiotic Kyoto program is not a good reason to blame the whole mess on them. (Did you see the CBC piece on California subdivision now being built with solar power in all the homes?)

4. I hate the language thing, and it is damn close to enough to make me go out and buy a big honkin' SUV............people who don't buy the conventional science are now "deniers", roughly equivalent to a holocaust "denier". God, we don't even call the looney conspiracy theorists 9-11 "deniers"

5. Canada produces 2% of the world's GHGs. If we COMPLETELY ceased producing GHGs, there would be NO effect on the environment.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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If one nation starts with the, "drop in the bucket attitude" then other nations will follow. Pretty soon that drop in the bucket is nearing the volume of a full bucket. Also, holding developing nations to a different standard is ridiculous, as some of those developing nations are much worse than we here in Canada.

There are allready technologies being used in Europe to meet energy needs. Take France. They don't have access to national resources like oil and natural gas. As a result they put their eggs in the nuclear basket and have met their Kyoto targets. Seventy-five percent of their energy is nuclear. The big difference between France and other nations using nuclear is that the French recycle as much of their nuclear waste as possible. France is also the worlds largest net exporter of electricity. The revenue brings them something like 3 billion Euros a year.
 

gearheaded1

Never stop questioning
Oct 21, 2006
100
1
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Alberta
One question leads to another...

Good points Tonigton, I believe this initial question leads to another Thread on going "Nuclear", particularly appropriate considering regional ramifications and global energy demands. Let's go talk nuke power.

Global warming, yea or nea? Eh, that's a circular conversation. Literally and figuratively.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Technically it's global warming yea, man made yea or nea.
I'm undecided at this point. The planet has shown through fosilized evidence that it has gone through drastic climate changes prior to our invovlement, so do I believe man is the prime culprit? No. Do I believe we have played some part? Yes. Have these issues been addressed by the junk science in the Kyoto Protocol? Absolutely not.
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,976
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I'm also undecided about Global Warming and it's root causes. I've always believed that Global Warming is the Planet naturally aging however; man kind is speeding the process us by allowing industry and we the little people to pollute this great planet. Man kind needs to take more responsibility for this Planet, I hold out no hope that Big Industry will make any attempt to change unless forced to by ruling Governments.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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I wouldn't call Kyoto junk science. it's more like junk policy. The only way it passed in the first place was to make all kinds of concessions and basically give free passes to some nations. The science behind Kyoto is the result of thousands of studies, scientists from every corner of the globe.
 

John Muff

EVOLUTION
Policies Are Key

I wouldn't call Kyoto junk science. it's more like junk policy. The only way it passed in the first place was to make all kinds of concessions and basically give free passes to some nations. The science behind Kyoto is the result of thousands of studies, scientists from every corner of the globe.

Unfortunately, I would say that there is MAJOR lacks as to how the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY must respond (UN), instead of non-binding game plans.

To integrate all fields would be to:
1- Give industries rules, which they would strictly need to follow: training of specialist in ways to do "whatever" in a more environmental friendly way. Even at some cost.
2- Starting national academy in solar power, renewing energy, The GHG University where clean ways learned would benefit us. Ie: We could benefit from a Quebecer's troop building wind power stations; but unfortunately they are busy in France building overthere facilities. I would love to see our government act in a proudly way of hiring them. We need more and more of trained technicians to meet more than reduction... Almost to an compleate stop in emissions of GHG.
... There is many more reasons why we should fund systems, including all industries. Do you know about green rooftop. They are so great... Everything green renew oxygen.

John Muff
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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California
People seem to spend a lot of time complaining about global warming but never "get" the idea they
can mitigate pollution and energy consumption in their own little piece of the world by practicing good habits.

If many people followed suit (such as they do in Davis, CA - which to me is the ultimate research center for an environmental way of life) we could cut back on many of our guilt trips as well as our gas burning trips.

We cannot control commercial venture or necessary transportation but we can seek to define, produce and actually begin utilization of other modes of fuel and until then - we can practice our own common sense.

I bought a brand new very small car in July 2004 and I have (just went into the garage and looked), 3578 miles on it. Actually have to argue with the dealer when my service comes up that I haven't put enough miles on it.... I get it serviced anyway because it runs cleaner. I also plan every trip I make in it to include lots of extraneous but necessary trips to get things done. When I can I bike or walk. Many of my friends also practice car-pooling especially grocery shopping trips - its fun, and saves fuel.

Talking about the overall international picture, waiting for the U.N. (while they perpetually have their meetings on a global basis), or any of our governments to tell commerce to change their habits, is a mission for fools. The people can change their own personal habits, insist on the right civic changes within the communities in which we live, better transportation choices, energy use and recycling development..... we can do much on our own..... instead we all wait and get overwhelmed and do nothing.
 

John Muff

EVOLUTION
The Denial Machine...

Hi there,

I am glad we have peoples like "Curiosity" that are taking this astonishing task on themselves. Unfortunately, so we can share the comfortable feeding to have made a difference, we need BOTH Industries and Citizens to be strictly rules on how we need to cut emissions. We are still far on billing transport through trucks. The industries are leading ideas that than transform into individual use by streamlining the process. It's rarely "unfunded" initiatives that change the way in which we do things.

You and I, as everyone, are SOLE RESPONSIBLE of our future, so we need to stop emissions to a drastic level. I loved your comment on your usage of your car. Congrat ! While I still know peoples with over 200 000 Miles per year on the road. That's alot of fuel in the air for a business doing millions in profits on the environment. Do you think they are close to giving us the fully electric car & freight when they (Gaz giants) bought and keep buying licence and rights to commercially bring it to market. Hybrid is a pure joke. We can create 100% renewing energy car. The first would cost alot but the billion and so fourth would become chep to save the planet.

President Bush was right on at least one thing; we need to stop depending on foreign oil. He's still so far from being the one to change the system. Wonder why it's always the last thing politicians holding powers do before leaving... Sending the next government on their just started policies. For them it must be satisfying to know they "covered" that topic, without ever spending to show how it's relevant.

When syndicates are supporting someone candidacy: if it's for the environmental goal in their plan it would be great, but usually it's for supporting their business; in other word interests; in other word PROFITS. So it's not about denial anymore, but about innaction...

Let's give them their share of the cake.

John Muff
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Here here! Curious I couldn't agree more. I tried to calculate my own carbon footprint, but it wasn't set up for people who don't drive cars. Also my electricity is paid by my Landlord, who owns a lot of real estate here. So I couldn't accurately estimate what my consumption was, though I don't think it's very high. The bad part is here in Nova Scotia, and perhaps all across Canada we don't have much choice in our electricity utilities. Our electricity here is mostly coal and oil. Though we have diverted over 50% of our waste from the landfills through mandatory recycling and composting. Personal choices can account for a portion of the problem, the UN or other political arenas is meant to have consensus for policy reform. That's not something we should be waiting for, personal changes may only represent a small portion, but if more people practiced civic duties instead of waiting on big brother the market place could provide the shift needed.