Tensions rise in Mideast over Cartoons

[FiveParadox]

If anything, in my opinion, terrorism is not an intrinsic value of any religious faith, but rather of the area itself; the culture of the area must evolve past the point where they honestly see terrorist acts as an appropriate avenue for gettings their points across in any appreciable numbers.

 

[Curiosity]

Toro - you wrote:

I don't recall fundamentalists threatening to kill anyone over those displays WC.

Did I write that? I don't see how because I never heard any either.

I heard a fuss in the press only. I wrote the following:

Christians made as large a fuss over the Virgin Mary and fecal matter in the New York MOMA..... but they didn't threaten the government ... only made a large noise in the press.

 

[jimmoyer]

FiveParadox, there is a huge carbuncle, a barnacle, if you will, inextricably attached to the host, the muslim religion.

You can't just by fiat anounce the two are separate.
They're joined together.

They need to see this, and so do you.

We quite understand your point, I assure you.

 

[Freethinker]

Re: RE: Tensions rise in Mideast over Cartoons

There are sick people in every religion who would resort to terrorism if given the chance — we must not forget that terrorism is not an intrinsic part of any religion — Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Baha'I, or otherwise.

Just out of curiosity can you come up with one example of Bhuddist terrorism. I would be genuinely interested in hearing about that. Almost seems like an oxymoron to me.

 

[Sassylassie]

Muslims world wide need to eradicate the extremist from "Their" religion. Untill Muslims take such actions it is not going to be possible to seperate the two faces (peaceful/terrorist) of Islam. I have heard Muslims state to the Media that Islam is loving and peaceful-okay start speaking out about the evil practices going on in the world that are being committed in the name of "Islam".

 

[thulin]

Article in Danish newspaper Berlingske Tidene says: "Danish political partys "Folkeparti" and "Venstre" investigates possibility to deport imams (islamic "priests", my comment) who demolishe danish reputation in middle east".
See original article here

Article in swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter: "Cartoon drawers under death threat". Under constant police protection, don´t present themselves with names and pictures.
See original article here

Norwegian newspaper Verldens Gang actually don´t mention anything about the threats against scandinavian countries on their front page, even though - with small letters - they mention that a jordanian journalist got fired after publishing the cartoon.

 

[FiveParadox]

Kudos to Islamic-Canadian Society

I would disagree.

We must draw a distinction between terrorist and extremist Muslims, and those who would choose to interpret the Islamic faith and its texts in a more modern and moderate sense, as many leaders of organized faiths choose to do today — Christianity, for example.

Cartoons offensive, but so is violence, Canadian Muslims say

By COLIN PERKEL
Thursday, February 2, 2006 • Posted at 6:03 PM EST
Canadian Press

Toronto — Cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed as a terrorist are deeply offensive, but so is the violent reaction to the drawings from Islamic extremists, Canadian Muslims said Thursday.

...

“The protests in the Middle East have proven that the cartoonist was right,” said Tarek Fatah, a director of the Muslim Canadian Congress.

:?: Please click here to view the entire article.

This is the mainstream opinion among Islamic-Canadians; we must not forget that, and it is imperative, in my opinion, that we do not "group" each and every Muslim together as "terrorists" or "barbarians," as many here have done. I would assert that the more "modern" of Muslims, in particular those who have chosen to pursue more moderate interpretations of their faith in Canada and, I would assume the United States — outright rejecting terrorist acts against us and our neighbours on the world stage.

 

[jimmoyer]

When a cancer dominates the host, one does not insist
the two are separate. It would be inaccurate to treat
each separately.

We understand your noble and rightful insistence
to keep the two separate.

But you evade the issue.

 

[sanch]

Well I could have predicted the response from the Canadian papers. If they are always worried about offending someone, and there is always someone who will be offended, it amounts to really saying nothing about nothing mostly. Which is what they do very well.

The point is not that the individuals cited in the article are outraged by the cartoons or the reaction. The point is a bloodthirsty regime in Sudan is killing and raping little girls and killing and enslaving boys and Christians and anyone else they see as infidel and they are doing this in the name of Islam. And so Mohammed is on this war banner and these crimes against humanity are justified in his name. The estimate is that up to 2.5 million people may have died in the Sudan since 1985 in the name of Islamic extremism. I might be mistaken but I have seen little outrage by these same groups in Toronto against the Sudanese genocide. So when someone ignores this and then compares the publication of these cartoons to the holocaust you really have to start wondering how their brains are wired.

 

[Freethinker]

Re: Kudos to Islamic-Canadian Society

I would disagree.

We must draw a distinction between terrorist and extremist Muslims, and those who would choose to interpret the Islamic faith and its texts in a more modern and moderate sense, as many leaders of organized faiths choose to do today — Christianity, for example.

You mean modern Muslims like Yusuf Islam (AKA Cat Stevens)? When asked about attending the effigy burning of Salmon Rushdie he said: "I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing".

One problem I see is that Islam demands a much more absolute obedience and submission of personal choice. How many who wanted Rushdie dead, read his book? A Mullah tells them what to think and they act.

The other big problem is I don't see any protests about suicide bombings, beheading or 9/11 where there was literally dancing in the streets.

Comics or literature ignite the muslim world into outraged action. But when the "radical" elements murder innocents, you could hear a pin drop.

I can only conclude that moderate muslims are essentially irrellevant if they are more likely to show their outrage about the use of the pen than they are about the use of the sword.

 

[Toro]

Toro - you wrote:

I don't recall fundamentalists threatening to kill anyone over those displays WC.

Did I write that? I don't see how because I never heard any either.

I heard a fuss in the press only. I wrote the following:

Christians made as large a fuss over the Virgin Mary and fecal matter in the New York MOMA..... but they didn't threaten the government ... only made a large noise in the press.

No, no WC. I was making a comparison between the reaction of Islamic fundamentalists, who have threatened to kill people for blasphemy, and Christian fundamentalists, who have not.

Christian fundamentalists limit themselves to just suggesting foreign leaders should be shot.

 

[FiveParadox]

Issue Evasion? No, no!

No, no!

I apologise most sincerely if I seem to be "avoiding" the issue.

I have several Muslim friends, I just want to ensure that in our quest to quelch insurgencies and apparently Islamic-based terrorist activity in the Middle East, that we do not alienate them, and many other good-hearted, kind and valuable Islamic citizens of Canada; they would wish no harm on any citizen of Canada, nor any citizen of the world stage.

:arrow: Let Me Be Clear

I vehemently oppose terrorist activities, and I vehemently oppose terrorists; they have no place in a modern Canada, nor in a modern world. Some societies, in particular those in the Middle Eastern world, seem to have slipped into a delusion that such activities are sometimes justified as a means to an end; they must be made aware that this simply is not true, and be made to seen the error of their ways. If under the most extreme of circumstances this would require force of some kind, to a degree, then I would support such a measure in the interest of the defense of Canada and any other nation.

 

[nitzomoe]

Re: RE: Tensions rise in Mideast over Cartoons

When a cancer dominates the host, one does not insist
the two are separate. It would be inaccurate to treat
each separately.

We understand your noble and rightful insistence
to keep the two separate.

But you evade the issue.

your cancer analogy doesnt work, in some cancers you hafta amputate the mpart thats infected so technically speaking yes you do separate from the host and the cancer.

The problem is more along the lines of foreign intevervention more than anything else. You cnat force change on ppl, you cant export your values, cauz they are alien values, unless the ppl naturally come to these values or tehir own set of values all you can do is advise.

Im being surprised everyday by the ppl on the right, you do realize a lot of what you guys are saying were the same justifications for ethnic cleaning during colonial expansion?

 

[Virtual Burlesque]

Re: RE: Tensions rise in Mideast over Cartoons

When a cancer dominates the host, one does not insist
the two are separate. It would be inaccurate to treat
each separately.

I suppose by that you mean the cancer of extremism in the body of the fundamentalist Islamic religion, which mirrors the cancer of extremism in the body of the fundamentalist Christian and Jewish religions.

By joining in the chorus of hateful statements against (extremist fundamentalist) Islamics who are warping Islamic society, we automatically position ourselves amongst the extremist fundamentalist Christians and Jews who are warping our society.

That may not be our intent, but that is the end result of our actions.



Or, we may choose otherwise:


The friend of my enemy is not necessarily my enemy.

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

There is room for a vast area of diverse opinions between the extremes of “with us or against us.”



Unless we are willing to give up the liberty of independently forming our own opinions.

 

[nitzomoe]

Re: Kudos to Islamic-Canadian Society

You mean modern Muslims like Yusuf Islam (AKA Cat Stevens)? When asked about attending the effigy burning of Salmon Rushdie he said: "I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing".

where/when did he say that, if so it changes my opinion on him entirely, no more "wild world", "peace train" and "the wind" for me ever.

One problem I see is that Islam demands a much more absolute obedience and submission of personal choice. How many who wanted Rushdie dead, read his book? A Mullah tells them what to think and they act.

this is not something unique with islam, i hate this sort of tit for tat sort of discussions but you really hafta stop thinking linearly. As recently as the 20th century mob mentality existed in many western countries, ppl simply follow what there leader says, this is true of America today!

dont be concieted in thinking that its only islam that has this sort of thing. Bare in mind that most of the protesters burning effigies etc are not the richest and most knowledgable ppl on earth, just as a lot fo cc forumers are ignorrant of facts, so are they.

The other big problem is I don't see any protests about suicide bombings, beheading or 9/11 where there was literally dancing in the streets.

the 9/11 dancing in the streets has already been proven as Fox news airing ancient footage to cement anti-arab feelings.

There has been sooo many events, press conferences, meetings with prime ministers/presidents its unimaginable. if I was one fot hose guys I would definitely not take part. Its not ym fault some wacko pretending to be part of my religion goes and blows stuff up, I would eb more inclined to make a press conference to discuss the over 1100 ppl in US prisons who have been detained without questioning or warrants, some fo whom arent even muslim!

Comics or literature ignite the muslim world into outraged action. But when the "radical" elements murder innocents, you could hear a pin drop.

thats an amazing missconception. Why should the victim apologise on behalf of the killer, many muslims lost loved ones on 9/11 and they are equal in terms of citizenship as every one else. To say that they should be coming otu an apoligizing smacks of hypocrisy at its highest level.

most pathetic part of what you say is that its actually not even true. Practically every muslim organization has held press conferences, apologised publicly and privately and donated large sums which tehy shouldnt have to do. Again mainstream media doesnt cover it. The only ppl mainstream media likes to interview are ppl that fit the stereotypical fundamnetalist so that they can mock adn deride him on tv

I can only conclude that moderate muslims are essentially irrellevant if they are more likely to show their outrage about the use of the pen than they are about the use of the sword.

its sad that you feel this way, as this sort of discrimination(thats what it is) has happend far too often in the western world. Ppl become guilty by association even if they had nothing to do with the madmen who are going and killing themselves.

This happend in Canada in WWII to ppl of german and italian history, in wwI for germans and hungarians, happend to Ukrainians during teh crimean campaign adn now to muslim citizens in the US who nothing to do with terrorism but for some reason have to go out an apologize to everyone.

this is sad, shows how much we havent changed.

 

[nitzomoe]

The point is not that the individuals cited in the article are outraged by the cartoons or the reaction. The point is a bloodthirsty regime in Sudan is killing and raping little girls and killing and enslaving boys and Christians and anyone else they see as infidel and they are doing this in the name of Islam. And so Mohammed is on this war banner and these crimes against humanity are justified in his name. The estimate is that up to 2.5 million people may have died in the Sudan since 1985 in the name of Islamic extremism. I might be mistaken but I have seen little outrage by these same groups in Toronto against the Sudanese genocide. So when someone ignores this and then compares the publication of these cartoons to the holocaust you really have to start wondering how their brains are wired.

I do not see the relevancy to the topic at hand. Need I bring up the last 400 years of western civilisation and see how alike sudan is to say UK, France, Germany and yes America.

and unlike Sudan which is getting some pressure applied to it to stop the killings (the figures have been grossly overestimated and ethnic cleansing has occured on both sides) these so called better nations have not paid any compensation or any apologies for their actions. before any fo you say bygones are bygones remember that some of teh most brutal ethnic cleansing adn genocide occured during the 20th century.

again if you want to demonize a whole group of ppl remember that our own crimes still exist even if we sweep then under the carpet.

 

[Durgan]

Religious fundamentalists who do not respect the difference or know the difference between satire and blasphemy have a problem.

http://www.pbase.com/dan_muc/freedomofspeech

Their problem, don't try to choke it down me in any shape or form.

Cartoons by their very nature are intended to raise the hackles of somebody, often with a bit of truth in the depictation.

The cartoons were almost to the point with a bit of interpretation.

Any group that advocates the strapping of explosives to a human being and blowing up innocents at random should be exposed to all the ridicule freedom loving people can muster.

Those 12 cartoons express revulsion in a very pointed way. Well done.

Durgan.

 

[Colpy]

The hypocracy of the Muslim imams who vehemently condemn these papers is outrageous.

Check out our own Canadian looney Islamist, the imam out of Toronto who refers to Jews as "sons of monkeys and swine", and is now insisting the Danes punish the newspaper that ran the cartoons, and issue an apology for their "intolerance".

I'm not making this up.

How about those Arab states? Newspapers in Saudi Arabia and in Egypt, we're talking government supported newspapers, print as fact the "blood libel" every passover year. That is the contention that Jews kidnap and murder Gentile children to use their blood in the unleavened bread eaten at Passover.

I'm not making this up.

Or how about that Palestinian Authority? You know, the government about to be handed over to Hamas. Their constitution calls for the elimination of Israel, speaks happily of the Koranic command to kill Jews, and refers to the fraudulent "Protocols of Zion".

I've got an idea. Let's ignore these idiots until they drag their heads out of their asses, and emerge from the ninth century.

Either that, or follow Anne Coulter's advice; "Invade their countries, kill their leaders, convert them to Christianity"

 

[Hank C]

Re: RE: Tensions rise in Mideast over Cartoons

The hypocracy of the Muslim imams who vehemently condemn these papers is outrageous.

Check out our own Canadian looney Islamist, the imam out of Toronto who refers to Jews as "sons of monkeys and swine", and is now insisting the Danes punish the newspaper that ran the cartoons, and issue an apology for their "intolerance".

I'm not making this up.

How about those Arab states? Newspapers in Saudi Arabia and in Egypt, we're talking government supported newspapers, print as fact the "blood libel" every passover year. That is the contention that Jews kidnap and murder Gentile children to use their blood in the unleavened bread eaten at Passover.

I'm not making this up.

Or how about that Palestinian Authority? You know, the government about to be handed over to Hamas. Their constitution calls for the elimination of Israel, <SNIP: SPAM> happily of the Koranic command to kill Jews, and refers to the fraudulent "Protocols of Zion".

I've got an idea. Let's ignore these idiots until they drag their heads out of their asses, and emerge from the ninth century.

Either that, or follow Anne Coulter's advice; "Invade their countries, kill their leaders, convert them to Christianity"

no we cant criticize Hamas, they love Canada and they stand with us against the United States. :lol:

Honestly I cant believe the idiocy of people who say we cannot criticize the new Hamas govt because the were elected democratically....where is the logic there!!!

If Canada elected a gov't that advocated the extinction of a country would the world just ignore it? Honsetly I have heard people on this board say that we are wrong, that we only criticize if it does not suit us!!! They elected this radical government and they have to live with the consequences......all other democratic nations do, its called responsibility. I am not advocating anything though, they have a right to govern until they step over the line!

 

[Hank C]

oops posted on the wrong thread....ah well point still stands!