Surprise U.S.-China climate deal reverberates north and south

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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you're not adding anything new here. I asked you what your skepticism was based on... you didn't answer. I asked you why China would set itself up for failure, for world criticism... you didn't answer. And yes, China is actively working to manage it's incredible industrialization pace in the face of the worst air pollution not seen since the 70s in the U.S.. China's major cities are choking in air pollution... the self-preservation reference I made was in that regard... it's forced to clean up and reduce it's emissions.



I have answered you... China could care less about world criticism. Never have... never will. That's why they get a "developing nation" status. The UN and Alarmist organizations know they aren't going to get a darn thing.


Their cities are choking eh? China is booming and they aren't skipping a beat.


You're a sucker... a stooge.


No wonder why the west is so weak.


And Waldo... you've been going around and around on this since you came here. You've added nothing more than background noise and amusement.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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If manufacturing in China ceases in order to improve environmental quality industry would simply shift to other locations where people want to improve their economic prospects.


Not to worry BT, I got 'er covered.

If the mfg sector shifts to, say, India, I'll get on the horn and get them to sign a non-binding, hand-shake agreement that suggests (very sincerely) a possible, maybe, hopeful upper limit on the pollution (sorry, make that CO2) that they can emit.

Understanding that they want to look good in their neighbour's eyes as opposed to growing their economy, they will surely sign and live up to the bargain.

.... Problem solved and Global Armageddon averted.
 

waldo

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Oct 19, 2009
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I have answered you... China could care less about world criticism. Never have... never will. That's why they get a "developing nation" status. The UN and Alarmist organizations know they aren't going to get a darn thing.

you've answered nothing I've asked; all you do is keep saying the same thing. Today's China (the China of the last decade) has become very focused on world opinion and how it is perceived... again, see Beijing Olympics, if nothing else. In this latest U.S.-China agreement, China has received world-wide commendation for its pledges... again, why would it set itself up for failure? The following graph gives a perspective on why that "developing nation" status you speak to was originally designated:

Their cities are choking eh? China is booming and they aren't skipping a beat.

you fail to recognize, to acknowledge just what steps China has been taking as it works to manage it's incredible industrialization... I've detailed this several times now; in short, mega shifts to nuclear, world leading initiatives in coal CCS, decommisioning older inefficient coal plants in favour of newer more efficients plants, world-leading research in and deployment of alternative energy, etc..
current, in construction and planned nuclear power plants in China: Nuclear Power in China
- Mainland China has 22 nuclear power reactors in operation, 26 under construction, and more about to start construction.

- Additional reactors are planned, including some of the world's most advanced, to give more than a three-fold increase in nuclear capacity to at least 58 GWe by 2020, then some 150 GWe by 2030, and much more by 2050.​
And Waldo... you've been going around and around on this since you came here. You've added nothing more than background noise and amusement.

what I have recently added, which you apparently refuse to acknowledge, is a comparative review of just what each country, the U.S. versus China, will be required to do in meeting the commitments within the U.S.-China agreement; again:
ya see... China can't keep on, as many claim, "doing nuthin" (aka Business-As-Usual (BAU)), and reach the peak pledge level (cutting its net carbon pollution between 2015 and 2030 by about 20 billion tons.)... notwithstanding as a part of the U.S.-China deal, China has pledged to increase the share of energy consumed from non-emissions sources like renewables, nuclear energy and hydro-electricity to 20 percent by 2030



in reality, on it's current trajectory, it is the U.S. pledge that will require the U.S. to do, relatively speaking, NOT MUCH MORE than maintain it's current BAU interests
... to date, U.S. emissions are already 10–15% below 2005 levels (which aligns with the prior 2009 pledge Obama made to reach a 17% reduction by 2020... the same pledge Harper made but refused to even address). To date, U.S. emissions are falling by about 1.5% per year... for the U.S. to reach the pledged target of 26–28% emissions cuts below 2005 levels by 2025, the U.S. will only be required to continue its current ongoing rate of yearly emission reductions.



Yep, a Chinese commitment is worth about as much as the U.S.'s signature on a treaty.

RogueNations-R-Us? In any case, it is quite rich for the American "EagleSmack" guy to presume to speak about what China may-or-may-not do in meeting it's signed commitments... cause, like, uhhh..... it was the U.S. that helped structure the Kyoto Protocol (to suit what the U.S. was prepared to do)... it was the U.S. that made commitments to the world community of nations within that treaty it signed... it was the world community of nations that stepped up and made commitments in that treaty based on U.S. commitments and participation... and it was the U.S. that turned its back on the world community of nations by walking away from the Kyoto Treaty it signed.
 

BaalsTears

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Jan 25, 2011
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The Chinese conception of fostering environmental quality is to create open space by planting landscaped trees in small parks disconnected from each other in a city of 22 million people. Can anyone tell me what's wrong with that conception from an environmental standpoint?

China's environmental commitments are precatory rather than mandatory.
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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you've answered nothing I've asked; all you do is keep saying the same thing. Today's China (the China of the last decade) has become very focused on world opinion and how it is perceived... again, see Beijing Olympics, if nothing else. In this latest U.S.-China agreement, China has received world-wide commendation for its pledges... again, why would it set itself up for failure? The following graph gives a perspective on why that "developing nation" status you speak to was originally designated:


Yes I have you are just a simpleton.


You are the stereotypical weak westerner.


China doesn't give a bleep what the world thinks and will do as they please.


A nation that has been around in some form since 221 B.C is still developing. One that has a manned space program, the worlds second biggest economy, etc. is a developing nation. You're such a tard.




RogueNations-R-Us? In any case, it is quite rich for the American "EagleSmack" guy to presume to speak about what China may-or-may-not do in meeting it's signed commitments... cause, like, uhhh..... it was the U.S. that helped structure the Kyoto Protocol (to suit what the U.S. was prepared to do)... it was the U.S. that made commitments to the world community of nations within that treaty it signed... it was the world community of nations that stepped up and made commitments in that treaty based on U.S. commitments and participation... and it was the U.S. that turned its back on the world community of nations by walking away from the Kyoto Treaty it signed.
It was not the U.S. It was written in the UN and the U.S did not ratify it dingbat.




On the flip side Canada WAS a signatory and failed to follow through in their commitments and withdrew from the protocol. How's that... rouge nation suiting you?
 
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EagleSmack

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Going rouge


it was the world community of nations that stepped up and made commitments in that treaty based on U.S. commitments and participation... and it was the U.S. that turned its back on the world community of nations by walking away from the Kyoto Treaty it signed.


Canada pulls out of Kyoto Protocol - Politics - CBC News


"Canada is formally withdrawing from the Kyoto accord, Environment Minister Peter Kent said Monday.
The decision to do so will save the government an estimated $14 billion in penalties, Kent said. The Conservative government says it has no choice given the economic situation."

"Canada signed the accord in 1998 and ratified it in 2002 but was not on track to meet its legally binding targets"
 

waldo

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Yes I have you are just a simpleton. You're such a tard.

yet another 'playground-bully' type who has difficulty conversing without adding insult!

You are the stereotypical weak westerner. China doesn't give a bleep what the world thinks and will do as they please.

says the American from a country that runs roughshod over the world presuming to bring it's brand of "freedom" while doing, as you say, "what it pleases" in pursuing its own self-interests! The China of 15 years ago, of your Tiananmen Square image, is not the image the China of today, 15 years later, is attempting to have the world perceive it as. It's always quite amusing to recognize the "China haters" who are also so willing to trade with China and so coveting of Chinese investments... no contradictions there, hey! And really... do you want me to start a throw-down of images of military/police confrontation internally within U.S. history?

A nation that has been around in some form since 221 B.C is still developing. One that has a manned space program, the worlds second biggest economy, etc. is a developing nation.

at the time of the Kyoto Protocol, almost 20 years ago, yes, assigning China developing nation status was warranted. To me, giving China any special status today in climate agreements only makes sense in terms of assigning compensation credits for total accumulated emissions. As it stands, even with China now emitting significantly more than the U.S., the latest estimates I've read, still have it as between 2025-2030 before China will surpass the U.S. in terms of total emissions accumulated in the atmosphere.

It was not the U.S. It was written in the UN and the U.S did not ratify it dingbat. On the flip side Canada WAS a signatory and failed to follow through in their commitments and withdrew from the protocol. How's that... rouge nation suiting you?
Going rouge Canada pulls out of Kyoto Protocol - Politics - CBC News

"Canada is formally withdrawing from the Kyoto accord, Environment Minister Peter Kent said Monday.
The decision to do so will save the government an estimated $14 billion in penalties, Kent said. The Conservative government says it has no choice given the economic situation."

"Canada signed the accord in 1998 and ratified it in 2002 but was not on track to meet its legally binding targets"

rogue... not "rouge"! The only thing rouge around here is/should be your red-face embarassment!

you're struggling with understanding the history of the Kyoto Protocol Treaty. Yes, as I said, the U.S. was a signatory to the treaty... was involved significantly in crafting the makeup of the treaty... made emission reduction commitments that were a part of the treaty... influenced other world nations to, in turn, commit to their own emission reduction targets based on U.S. commitment targets and participation. And then, as I said, the U.S. turned its back on the treaty... by refusing to domestically ratify it. Everything as I said.

now... I relish anyone bringing forward Harper's ignoring of Canada's commitment to the Kyoto Protocol... which is exactly what he did when assuming government in 2006... only to formally abandon the treaty in 2011 to avoid paying the legally binding penalty for failure to meet commitments. Of course, what Harper fronted instead, was his described "made in Canada" emission reduction solution... which he, in turn, completely ignored as well. Then we had Harper tie any presumed Canadian emission reductions to his so-called "harmonization with the U.S."... that Canada committed to whatever emission reduction targets the U.S. made... hence the Canada & U.S. commitments to reduce emissions 17% below 2005 levels by 2020. Which the U.S. is on target to make... which Harper has completely ignored and Canada has absolutely no ability to meet. So yes... bring on any mention of Canada pulling out of the Kyoto Protocol Treaty!
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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yet another 'playground-bully' type who has difficulty conversing without adding insult!

Meanwhile you insult everyone that opposes you.

What a hypocrite.

rogue... not "rouge"! The only thing rouge around here is/should be your red-face embarassment!

Did you ever think of using a capital letter to start a sentence?

Also it is spelled embarrassment not "embarassment"!

BOOM!

says the American from a country that runs roughshod over the world presuming to bring it's brand of "freedom" while doing, as you say, "what it pleases" in pursuing its own self-interests! The China of 15 years ago, of your Tiananmen Square image, is not the image the China of today, 15 years later, is attempting to have the world perceive it as. It's always quite amusing to recognize the "China haters" who are also so willing to trade with China and so coveting of Chinese investments... no contradictions there, hey! And really... do you want me to start a throw-down of images of military/police confrontation internally within U.S. history?

China will do as China has always done and that is act in their own self interest.



at the time of the Kyoto Protocol, almost 20 years ago, yes, assigning China developing nation status was warranted. To me, giving China any special status today in climate agreements only makes sense in terms of assigning compensation credits for total accumulated emissions. As it stands, even with China now emitting significantly more than the U.S., the latest estimates I've read, still have it as between 2025-2030 before China will surpass the U.S. in terms of total emissions accumulated in the atmosphere.

No it wasn't. They gave them the developing nation status because China would never agree to any treaty that requires them to do anything they do not wish to do or that would require them to pay into a fund they do not wish to. The UN knew that trying to shake down China was and is a dead end.


you're struggling with understanding the history of the Kyoto Protocol Treaty. Yes, as I said, the U.S. was a signatory to the treaty... was involved significantly in crafting the makeup of the treaty... made emission reduction commitments that were a part of the treaty... influenced other world nations to, in turn, commit to their own emission reduction targets based on U.S. commitment targets and participation. And then, as I said, the U.S. turned its back on the treaty... by refusing to domestically ratify it. Everything as I said.

The Clinton Administration signed it but it was not submitted for ratification so that is that. The U.S made no commitments.

Canada did though.

now... I relish anyone bringing forward Harper's ignoring of Canada's commitment to the Kyoto Protocol... which is exactly what he did when assuming government in 2006... only to formally abandon the treaty in 2011 to avoid paying the legally binding penalty for failure to meet commitments. Of course, what Harper fronted instead, was his described "made in Canada" emission reduction solution... which he, in turn, completely ignored as well. Then we had Harper tie any presumed Canadian emission reductions to his so-called "harmonization with the U.S."... that Canada committed to whatever emission reduction targets the U.S. made... hence the Canada & U.S. commitments to reduce emissions 17% below 2005 levels by 2020. Which the U.S. is on target to make... which Harper has completely ignored and Canada has absolutely no ability to meet. So yes... bring on any mention of Canada pulling out of the Kyoto Protocol Treaty!

Canada made commitments and failed to meet it's obligations that they fully committed to. Facing billions in penalties they smartly withdrew.

So Canada turned it's back on the world... not the U.S. The U.S wasn't a part of Kyoto...Canada was.

SUCK ON THAT!