Surprise U.S.-China climate deal reverberates north and south

Zipperfish

House Member
Apr 12, 2013
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I get what you're saying.

To play devil's advocate, the organic materials that is oil today was also trapped on a sudden(ish) basis.. The dinos (or algae, plantlife, etc) was sequestered in such a manner that it was unable to actively be a part of the ongoing carbon cycle.

One can argue that the events that resulted in that situation simply acted to defer the inevitable release.

And yes, I get that the 'release' is an anthro source... That said, to suggest that these hydrocarbons would remain untouched indefinitely is not accurate. The Athabasca oilsands are proof-positive that the hydrocarbons to get back in the system over time (geologic).

If in doubt, I recommend that you take a trip to Northern AB, specifically Clear Water Creek... Don the swim attire and jump in... You'll notice when you get out that your skin will be covered in many, tiny droplets of oil.

PS - Clear Water Creek is upstream from any developments

I agree it's an oversimplification to say that underground hydrocarbons are removed from the system. There's probably twenty or so Exxon Valdez's a year spilling into the marine environment from natural oil seepage. And oil wasn't even discovered underground. It was first discovered to be useful when ancient peoples used local seeps.

I think the issue here is that the oxidation of all that hydrocarbon has been instantaneous, on a geological scale. The system will adapt of course; the earth doesn't have a natural temperature. The way the system adapts--which is what the global circulation models are trying to find out, with limited success--may not suit us.

I don't know if the effect will be catastrophic or just a nuisance. Nor does anyone else really. I suspect that the claims of the IPCC are too severe. I think that doubling CO2 will result in a temperature increase of around 1 deg C, where as the IPCC suspects it will be somewhere between 2 and 3.5 deg C.

Frankly, I'm more worried about the fish.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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By in large, it's reasonable to say that we are basically on the same page.

Frankly, I'm more worried about the fish.

Really good point.

In terms of the seepage you mentioned, I believe that there is enough bacteriological action (remediation) that will balance the equation naturally in the oceans... Places like Clear Water Creek are unique as the concentrations of HC are naturally higher... To be honest, I don't know what the fish populations are in CW Creek, I'll look into it sometime just for personal info.

The various Valdez spills are definitely catastrophic to marine life and waterfowl.. Sadly, you see a lot more of these tanker spills outside NorAm (Middle East from what I'm told) but rarely hear about them as the regulatory environment is significantly different.

Too bad on so many levels.. It really doesn't take that much to institute safety precautions that will prevent spills.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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For once, capn isn't the one shifting goal posts lol

U.S.-China climate deal poses special challenge for G20-bound PM

Stephen Harper will have to deal with climate issue now that the goalposts have shifted

Two things happened this week that may come to shape Stephen Harper's leadership, both at home and on the world stage, as he gets set to attend this weekend's G20 summit in Australia.

The first happened Wednesday when Finance Minister Joe Oliver confirmed that the federal budget is back in surplus for the first time since 2008, when Harper agreed to run the biggest budget deficit in Canadian history to try to stimulate the economy out of a global recession.

Canada becomes one of the first countries to return to fiscal health, a point of pride and of influence as another conservative prime minister, Tony Abbott of Australia, tries to focus this year's G20 leaders on the path of lowering taxes, eliminating deficits and reducing trade barriers in the hope of boosting economic growth.

Joe Oliver's election-bound budget surplus
These are all Harper values, ones he relentlessly pursued largely without political cost, though every federal agency and many others groups paid a price.

The Conservatives strictly controlled spending across government, in the process reducing and in some cases eliminating funding to agencies and non-profit groups that didn't fit into Harper's agenda.

At the same time, in eliminating the deficit without raising taxes, Ottawa capped but did not cut transfers to the provinces for health, social programs and post-secondary education.

The government also created the Building Canada Fund to sustain investments in crucial infrastructure like roads and bridges.

Is it enough? Provincial and municipal politicians will say no, but that's the nature of the relationship. The fact is there are tens of billions of dollars available in the coming years to do this needed work.

The goalposts shift on climate change

And then there's the other thing that happened this week, a challenge that will be much trickier for Harper to manage because it will play not only a role in defining where he has been as a leader, but where he still has to go heading into an election year.

This week's surprising climate-change deal between the U.S. and China offers Harper a choice.

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He can continue, as he always has, to argue that the work to reduce carbon emissions must be done without damaging the fragile economic recovery.


Australia's Tony Abbott and Canada's Stephen Harper in Ottawa in June 2014. No fans of "job-killing carbon taxes" here. (Adrian Wyld / Canadian Press)
On that he has important supporters in Brisbane, including G20 chair Tony Abbott.

Abbott was in Ottawa in June, when he and Harper both ridiculed efforts to put a price on emissions as a "job-killing carbon tax."

The Australian PM has also refused repeated calls from European leaders and others to put climate change on the agenda this weekend, insisting the focus of the summit remain squarely on economic issues and the handful of priorities he's chosen, as if promoting the economy and protecting the environment are inherently contradictory.

But where Abbott is a blunt edge, Harper's crafting of Canada's message probably requires a finer touch.

Canada's economic future depends heavily on the energy sector, in particular continued development of Alberta's oil sands while selling the product in the U.S. and beyond.

Those efforts get a boost with the Republicans about to control both houses of Congress, and with their renewed drive to pass legislation to approve the controversial Keystone XL pipeline from Alberta to American refineries on the Gulf of Mexico.

But the White House has hinted at a veto if Congress pushes ahead on Keystone, and Barack Obama has made climate change a priority of his second term, a factor that no doubt played a huge role in this week's deal with China's Xi Jinping.

Surprise?

For the first time, China has agreed to cap its emissions — by 2030 at the latest — and to diversify its energy supply to include more non-fossil fuels. In turn, Obama is promising the U.S. will reduce its emissions by up to 28 per cent below 2005 levels within the next decade, which is a much greater commitment than Canada's.

For years, the Conservative government has tried to move in lockstep with the U.S. to reduce pollution.

But, unlike the U.S., Canada has yet to bring in standards for its oil and gas sector. And environmentalists are unanimous in saying Canada won't make the more modest emission reduction targets (17 per cent below 2005 levels by 2020) that the U.S. has now trumped.

Earlier this month, French President Francois Hollande chided Harper about Canada's record at a news conference in Ottawa. This U.S.-China deal — between the two biggest polluters on the planet — sets the bar even higher.

So what can Harper do? The prime minister surprised many of his most persistent critics at the 2008 G8 summit in Muskoka by proposing the maternal and child health initiative, which has grown to a multi-billion commitment to reduce the staggering mortality rate among new mothers and infants in the developing world.

That program remained true to Conservative principles. No Canadian money would be used for abortions, progress would be monitored. The UN would be accountable for results.

As for climate change, it isn't on the agenda in Brisbane this weekend, but it's certainly in the news. There will be pressure from leaders and from protesters outside the conference setting for Canada to step up its commitment.

Perhaps it's a chance for Harper to surprise again and set out what Canada can do, while remaining consistent with those Conservative values.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/u...-special-challenge-for-g20-bound-pm-1.2834460
 

grainfedpraiboy

Electoral Member
Mar 15, 2009
715
1
18
Alberta The Last Best West
Hey can I put that down if I am ever looking for a new job? I'm Latino ese! (proto-type)

Me vale madres

 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,187
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Pinche pinocha.

Keystone XL was passed. Will we see 'Democratic" tyranny? Is Obama trying to save 1000 truckers from being put out of work in ND alone?
 

grainfedpraiboy

Electoral Member
Mar 15, 2009
715
1
18
Alberta The Last Best West
Eaglesmack and Grain are or were so much alike at one time. It's funny watching the back and forth.

He's a good bean


And I'm still me so stop saying that......just more old and tired.

Hey, I almost seriously shot the new (6 months Rotti) dog today. It has a chewing issue and somehow got a hold of a pair of glasses and my wallet off the counter and chewed it to shreds along with my credit, debit and license. Mrs GFPB gave it a stay of execution but I was loaded, holstered and ready to bring it out back goddammit.

I have given her two weeks to get things straight with he animal or dog gets sold.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
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G20 grapples with climate change and global growth

G20 leaders representing the bulk of the world's economic and diplomatic firepower kick off summit talks Saturday under pressure to arrest climate change, rehabilitate global growth and fight the scourge of Ebola.

The chairman of the two-day summit in Brisbane, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, has been busy stressing a shared commitment to lift economic growth by up to two trillion dollars in the coming years.

The G20 has pledged to raise the level of its combined economic output by at least two percent above the currently projected level in the next five years, via domestic policy reforms, and so generate millions of new jobs.

The idea in Brisbane is to flesh out that plan -- and also to close corporate loopholes that allow some multinational companies to pay a pittance in tax depending on where they are domiciled.

But even as the US economy finally perks up from its crisis lows, analysts doubt that the G20's growth goal is achievable with Germany and China now starting to splutter, and Japan again at risk of going into reverse.

And Abbott, a sceptic about man-made climate change, risks being upstaged on his pro-growth agenda as US President Barack Obama primes a headline-grabbing announcement to pump three billion dollars into the UN's "Green Climate Fund" to help poorer countries deal with the effects of higher temperatures.

In an ironic development not lost on Abbott's opponents, Brisbane is basking in a heatwave with the mercury forecast to reach 40 degrees Celsius (104 degrees Fahrenheit) when the summit wraps up on Sunday.
Japan is also reportedly planning to join the climate fund, after Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping announced in Beijing a new drive to secure a legally binding successor to the Kyoto treaty on greenhouse gas emissions.

G20 grapples with climate change and global growth
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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In an ironic development not lost on Abbott's opponents, Brisbane is basking in a heatwave with the mercury forecast to reach 40 degrees Celsius (104 degrees Fahrenheit) when the summit wraps up on Sunday.

Regional weather is only with highlighting when it fits the model, lol.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
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Wuh oh

G20 summit: U.S., EU override Australia to put climate change on agenda

The G20 communique will include a significant passage on climate change, EU officials said on Sunday, as the United States and other heavyweight nations override host Australia's attempts to keep the issue off the formal agenda.

Much of the meeting of world leaders in Australia has been overshadowed by the crisis in Ukraine, with Western leaders warning Russian President Vladimir Putin that he risked more economic sanctions if he failed to end Russian backing for separatist rebels.

On Sunday, momentum swung back to other major concerns for the Group of 20 leading economies, including climate change.

That is something of an embarrassment for Australia, which had argued it was not a clear economic issue and so should not be discussed at the G20. Indeed, Prime Minister Tony Abbott has questioned the science behind climate change.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/world/g20-...lia-to-put-climate-change-on-agenda-1.2836741