Surprise U.S.-China climate deal reverberates north and south

EagleSmack

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you keep repeating yourself and you keep reinforcing exactly what I've said. Again, the U.S. signed the agreement and made committments therein. The U.S. significantly influenced the format/makeup of the agreement. The U.S. significantly influenced what other nations did in terms of their own acceptance and commitments made within the treaty. Again, if it makes you feel better, please continue to ignore the negotiation/signatory side of the agreement and all the U.S. influence played out in that regard, while emphasing the internal domestic ratification side.

The US did not sign it. The Clinton Administration did and the Kyoto Protocol did not pass muster with the other branch of the US Legislative government. Therefore we were obligated to NOTHING!

Which is why I got a warm fuzzy feeling when Canada got the bill for not making it's commitments and the US did not.

And I fully support Canada telling the rest of the world to F*** Off and pulling out!

You need to learn about the Legislative Branch of the US Government. Even this recent pledge with China can amount to nothing if it does not receive full approval.



yes, as I said, please continue to highlight the Harper Conservative hypocrisy in ignoring then formally abrogating Canada's Kyoto treaty commitments... while instead pushing an alternate Harper Conservative "made in Canada" emission reduction commitment... and ignoring it... while instead committing to a joint U.S.-Canada "harmonized" emission reduction commitment... and ignoring it. That's a Harper Conservative Kyoto treaty abrogation done and rationalized by Harper Conservatives by making other commitments... and ignoring them!
Does Canada have $14 Billion hanging around?

Lucky for Canada Harper did withdraw. Canada never should have agreed to it to begin with.

The U.S told you so!
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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yeesh! I specifically made a point to emphasize you look at the graphic and what it presents in terms of the Kyoto Protocol treaty negotiations... so, of course, you ignore that and look at the 2007 referenced numbers. Do you actually know what date the treaty was negotiated... try 1995 COP 1 in Berlin where negotiations formed the basis for target commitments.



no - I'm working on the premise that you're so far beyond accepting anything that's factual, it doesn't matter what you think to me.

Well try posting something factual and we will test your theory.
 

waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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The issue with Kyoto and Canada was Creitien signing knowing there was absolutely no way the targets could be met. But it was a great Lieberal photo-op. Harper was wise to ignore and revoke.

no - actions had been taken, plans had been taken, initatives were in progress... those targets could have been met. Harper chose to turn-around actions/initiatives/plans... and ignore Kyoto... substituting for it with his own much hyped/publicized "made in Canada" emission reduction plan... which, again, Harper ignored. Again, substituting for it with his "U.S. harmonization' emissions reduction commitment made to match the U.S. commitment... which, again, Harper ignored. Was Harper, as you say, 'wise" in also making his own commitments... and then ignoring them? Is that also your measure of "wise"?
 

taxslave

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Politicians should refrain from making commitments that are not possible for industry to meet. OTH we could just shut the country down for 3 months every year so China can pollute more.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

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May 28, 2007
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no - actions had been taken, plans had been taken, initatives were in progress... those targets could have been met. Harper chose to turn-around actions/initiatives/plans... and ignore Kyoto... substituting for it with his own much hyped/publicized "made in Canada" emission reduction plan... which, again, Harper ignored. Again, substituting for it with his "U.S. harmonization' emissions reduction commitment made to match the U.S. commitment... which, again, Harper ignored. Was Harper, as you say, 'wise" in also making his own commitments... and then ignoring them? Is that also your measure of "wise"?

There were no real plans. Creitien was in the dying years of his administration and wanted a pic of himself in the history books. Nobody believed that even a subsequent Lieberal government would have been able to achieve the goals.

I would have prefered Harper just dismiss Kyoto immediatly as a bunch of hogwash and not make any committments but no government is perfect. I was ok with flatly ignoring it too.
 

waldo

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Oct 19, 2009
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The US did not sign it. The Clinton Administration did and the Kyoto Protocol did not pass muster with the other branch of the US Legislative government. Therefore we were obligated to NOTHING!

You need to learn about the Legislative Branch of the US Government. Even this recent pledge with China can amount to nothing if it does not receive full approval.

I'm well versed in the azz-covering side of the U.S. Legislative Branch... it's the same game the U.S. played in "legalizing" the illegal U.S. invasion of Iraq! Self-serving, self-interest ROGUE nation, hey!

you can keep up your dodge forever. The fact will always remain that the U.S. signed the agreement and committed to target emission reductions. The fact will always remain that the structure, format, makeup of the treaty was significantly influenced by the U.S. participation in the treaty negotiations. The fact will always remain that the actions of other nations, what they chose to commit to within the treaty, was significantly influenced by what the U.S. did within the negotiation phase of the treaty... and by the U.S. signing of the treaty.

There were no real plans. Creitien was in the dying years of his administration and wanted a pic of himself in the history books. Nobody believed that even a subsequent Lieberal government would have been able to achieve the goals.

you have no understanding of what transpired... please, step beyond your simple talking points!
 

Tecumsehsbones

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you keep repeating yourself and you keep reinforcing exactly what I've said. Again, the U.S. signed the agreement and made committments therein.
Under the U.S. Constitution, Article II, section 2, clause 2, no treaty is effective, no commitment made, unless the Senate consents by a 2/3 vote. All you are doing here is broadcasting your ignorance.
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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yeesh! I specifically made a point to emphasize you look at the graphic and what it presents in terms of the Kyoto Protocol treaty negotiations... so, of course, you ignore that and look at the 2007 referenced numbers. Do you actually know what date the treaty was negotiated... try 1995 COP 1 in Berlin where negotiations formed the basis for target commitments.

Why would I care about when the treaty was negotiated? The U.S was not obligated to it. ;)

China is still exempt aren't they? :)
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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I'm well versed in the azz-covering side of the U.S. Legislative Branch... it's the same game the U.S. played in "legalizing" the illegal U.S. invasion of Iraq! Self-serving, self-interest ROGUE nation, hey!

you can keep up your dodge forever. The fact will always remain that the U.S. signed the agreement and committed to target emission reductions. The fact will always remain that the structure, format, makeup of the treaty was significantly influenced by the U.S. participation in the treaty negotiations. The fact will always remain that the actions of other nations, what they chose to commit to within the treaty, was significantly influenced by what the U.S. did within the negotiation phase of the treaty... and by the U.S. signing of the treaty.

What part of this don't you get?

The doc did NOT bear the necessary signatures to authorize or recognize the agreement.

Move on, your only looking like a damned fool
 

taxslave

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By waldo's warped view of reality if a union leader signs a deal with an employer the deal is valid even if the membership rejects it. No wonder no one takes him seriously.
 

waldo

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Oct 19, 2009
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Well try posting something factual and we will test your theory.

coming from you? I've looked through a number of past threads... I've seen your level of "factual". You provide nothing in that regard... all I've seen you present are cut&paste "ta da" specials where you offer nothing of your understanding/interpretation. Drive-by cut&paste... the measure of your "factual"!
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
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I'm well versed in the azz-covering side of the U.S. Legislative Branch... it's the same game the U.S. played in "legalizing" the illegal U.S. invasion of Iraq! Self-serving, self-interest ROGUE nation, hey!

you can keep up your dodge forever. The fact will always remain that the U.S. signed the agreement and committed to target emission reductions. The fact will always remain that the structure, format, makeup of the treaty was significantly influenced by the U.S. participation in the treaty negotiations. The fact will always remain that the actions of other nations, what they chose to commit to within the treaty, was significantly influenced by what the U.S. did within the negotiation phase of the treaty... and by the U.S. signing of the treaty.

Invasion of Iraq! Where did that come from! lmao.

I shall happily quote a fellow American forthwith...

Under the U.S. Constitution, Article II, section 2, clause 2, no treaty is effective, no commitment made, unless the Senate consents by a 2/3 vote. All you are doing here is broadcasting your ignorance.

The President's signature meant NOTHING unless the Senate consents by 2/3.

The U.S didn't commit to sh*t.

BADABING
 
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waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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Under the U.S. Constitution, Article II, section 2, clause 2, no treaty is effective, no commitment made, unless the Senate consents by a 2/3 vote. All you are doing here is broadcasting your ignorance.

no - again, the treaty had 2 stages... signatory and ratification. As they all do - duh! This is not a difficult concept! I will most certainly emphasize the signature side for the U.S. particularly in how it so influenced the makeup of the treaty and actions taken by other nations based on the U.S. participation and signing of the agreement. What's significant is to realize that even in the face of the U.S. turning it's back on the commitments it made as a part of the signatory phase, other nations did not, in turn, also renege on their commitments made... even though the U.S. had significant influence on what they did.

the same ratification pursuit was needed in Canada... that process took the Liberal government years as it had to negotiate with individual provinces. And yes, if Canada had failed to ratify the agreement, I would be saying the exact same thing from that perspective: that Canada didn't meet it's signatory commitments.
 

BaalsTears

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Jan 25, 2011
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Those folks in the West who think China's latest agreement heralds a new age in the fight against climate change, aka global warming, are in my opinion subject to a psychological phenomenon called "mirror imaging."

"...Mirror-imaging means that an analyst may perceive and process information through the filter of personal experience. Mirror-imaging imposes personal perspectives and cultural background on incomplete data, undermining objectivity. Because objectivity is a key component of intelligence analysis, mirror-imaging impedes efforts to make accurate judgments about incomplete information.

Mirror-imaging frequently results in gross distortions of intelligence and raw data, forcing the information to fit into a framework for which it may not be suited. This improper juxtaposition has led to massive oversights...

https://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/sais_review/v028/28.1witlin.html

We all occasionally fall into the trap of assuming that peoples from non-Western cultures use the same assumptions and analytic processes that people in the West use. Thus, we must all be aware that mirror imaging is a trap for the unwary.

In the context of analyzing China's possible compliance with the subject environmental agreement we have to consider Chinese ethics, morality, and philosophy. China doesn't have a rule of law tradition in which one must honor binding contractual obligations. That's why Chinese compliance with the subject environmental agreement should not be viewed through the prism of legalisms.

Generally, China is a Confucian country ruled by a Leninist Party. What does Confucianism tell us about honoring obligations made to people who are not part of the clan, old friends, or even Han Ren? Confucianism establishes an elaborate system of obligations flowing up the hierarchy and back down to those at the bottom rungs. The West is composed of barbarians to whom no ethical or moral obligations are owed. Thus, under the most important operative philosophy in China there are no obligations to comply with the subject environmental agreement. If the Han Ren have no ethical or moral obligation to barbarians the Chinese are free to deal with them as ruthlessly as the Chinese want.

That leaves Leninism as a tool for analysis. Leninism is Lenin's contribution to the world's political theory and philosophy. Under Leninism a cost/benefit analysis is employed to determine the proper actions in any given context. What do the Leninists in the Chinese Communist Party think is the most important thing in the world? Maintenance of the political power and control they have achieved over Mainland China.

Chinese compliance with the subject environmental agreement will always be a work in progress in which the utility of compliance will be subjected to an ongoing cost/benefit analysis. The Chinese will comply with the agreement to the extent it assists the Party in maintaining power.

The Chinese Communist Party has no legitimacy in the eyes of the Chinese people unless it provides economic prosperity and continues to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. However, the Chinese Communist Party will take actions which make it look virtuous if there is no adverse economic impact. By signing the subject environmental agreement the Chinese Communist Party has already received the benefits, consideration if you will, through a propaganda victory in which the Party appears to be virtuous.

That brings us to the burdens of compliance with the subject environmental agreement. The CCP will comply with the agreement if its ongoing cost/benefit analysis indicates that compliance is beneficial at each moment during the period of compliance specified in the agreement. If, as and when the subject environmental agreement is determined to be no longer beneficial from a cost/benefit standpoint the Chinese Communist Party will cease compliance.

If the Chinese Communist Party ceases compliance the Chinese people will not be informed of the decision to terminate compliance. The Chinese people get their news in the form of happy talk appearing in print, over TV, and in social media. No mention will be made of compliance termination.

What will the West say if China terminates compliance with the subject environmental agreement? The West will complain. And the Chinese will deny they have terminated compliance. Western complaints are of no importance because the West is not united, and is composed of barbarians. No one outside of the West will complain. Thus, the world's hopes for Chinese compliance with the subject environmental agreement rest entirely on the ongoing cost/benefit analysis of the Chinese Communist Party.