Solution to gas hikes?

[Machjo]

We've been hearing of gas price woes at the pumps lately, along with various strategies on how to cope.

Before we look at solutions, I think we first need to look at the problem. For years governments have been subsidizing the gas industry via tax exemptions etc., resulting in artificially low gas prices. Through in psychology and supply and demand, and you have a recepe for disaster. This artificially low cost of gas over the years has encouraged urbanites to move to the suburbs, farmers to move farther away from the cities, and more people to buy bigger cars and governments to build more highways. Sooner or later this was bound to catch up with us as demand eventually outstripped supply, and now here we are. And since gas is already subsidised, it's not like we can just give gas companies a tax exemption since they already have that!

So if keeping the cost of gas artifically low for years is the cause of high gas costs today, then certainly pushing the price of gas up should achieve the exact opposite effect.

Let's suppose we shifted taxes to gas (e.g. introduce income splititng for families, and raise taxes on gas). Suddenly, with the cost of gas up, farmers would want to move back to the suburbs and suburbanites to the cities, people would want to trade their SUVs in for bicycles and governments would not need to build as many highways anymore. This would drive demand for gas down over time as people adjust to the new lifestyle, resulting eventually to a drop in gas prices. After all, if keeping the price artifially low all these years contributed to the steady increase in demand and thus prices, then certainly bringing the price up is bound to gradually reduce demand over many years and thus prices too.

Simple logic, really.

 

[lone wolf]

How do you propose to turn a subdivision back into productive farmland?

 

[Machjo]

How do you propose to turn a subdivision back into productive farmland?

In the same timeframe it took to turn farmland into a subdivision: many years.

I raise raise taxes on gas and let the market figure it out. After a decade or so, some houses might be converted into businesses, more people will telecommute, more businesses will move out of town to form new central business districts, etc. Give it ten or twenty years, and demand for gas would eventually start to drop, along with the cost of gas. The exact opposite trend from the one we'd been following for many years now of subsidizing the industry through tax exemptions. What did the government expect to happen as a result of such subsidizations? That people would start using gas more wisely?

 

[lone wolf]

It took around 12000 years and the right conditions to create the stuff swallowed up in a couple of hundred by GTA

 

[Machjo]

It took around 12000 years and the right conditions to create the stuff swallowed up in a couple of hundred by GTA

So seeing how precious the stuff is, would it not make sense to tax it more so as to ensure people use it more wisely?

Tax breaks to gas companies so you can enjoy your SUV ride in teh back country each weekend does not seem like a wise policy decision to me when we consider how precious gas is.

 

[lone wolf]

A little like closing the stable after the horse ran away.... How much tax is collected on a single family dwelling as opposed to a farm where a couple of hundred single-family dwellings might be built - seeing as you like taxes so much....

 

[Machjo]

A little like closing the stable after the horse ran away.... How much tax is collected on a single family dwelling as opposed to a farm where a couple of hundred single-family dwellings might be built - seeing as you like taxes so much....

I was talking of a gas tax. Money does not grow on trees, so it's a little disingenuous of you to pretend to oppose taxes if you support the existence of government. Heck, just go onot libertarian forums, and even they debate what kind of taxes to have because even extreme libertarians recognize some kind of tax will be needed to pay for roads. Question is, will everyone pay their fare share. In case you didn't know, the gas industry does not pay its fair share owing to tax exemptions. If we have to pay taxes why not them. Also, if we must have taxes, would a user-pay tax system not make sense? Heck, user-pay seems about as conservative as you can get. The advantage of a gas tax is that it's directly lnked to how much you use the road, unlike income tax. You'll have noticed that, unlike Haprer this election I actually do support the Green party's idea of income splitting for families right away, not later like Harper wants. After all, income tax does not reflect how much you burden public infrastructure, thus creating no built in incentive to use it wisely. A gas tax does. So if Harper is so conservative, why does he oppose income splitting for families right away and also oppose a gas tax? Is he not then supporting a tax that has no bearing on use of public resources and opposing a tax that does? What kind of conservative is he?

 

[shadowshiv]

Half of what we pay for gas right now is already taxes going to the government. Why the heck would I want to pay more?

They should introduce a cap to the price of gas. The companies would not be allowed to go over this cap(they are already making obscene amounts of profits even when the gas is 75cents a litre). I know this is a pipe-dream and that it would never happen, but you wanted solutions and I gave one.

 

[Machjo]

Half of what we pay for gas right now is already taxes going to the government. Why the heck would I want to pay more?

They should introduce a cap to the price of gas. The companies would not be allowed to go over this cap(they are already making obscene amounts of profits even when the gas is 75cents a litre). I know this is a pipe-dream and that it would never happen, but you wanted solutions and I gave one.

Ah, like the price caps on gas in teh 1970's leading to gas lineups? So, which would you prefer, expensive gas or none at all?

As for the tax question, the more gas is taxed, the more we can reduce income tax

 

[shadowshiv]

Ah, like the price caps on gas in teh 1970's leading to gas lineups? So, which would you prefer, expensive gas or none at all?

As for the tax question, the more gas is taxed, the more we can reduce income tax

There is plenty of gas. There is NO excuse for it to be $1.31 a litre. It is greed by the companies, and they should be forced to reduce their prices.

Even if they added to the gas tax, there is no reason why they would reduce income tax.

 

[Machjo]

There is plenty of gas. There is NO excuse for it to be $1.31 a litre. It is greed by the companies, and they should be forced to reduce their prices.

The market decides.

Even if they added to the gas tax, there is no reason why they would reduce income tax.[/QUOTE]

Maybe because they'd then be getting more revenue from the gas tax?

 

[shadowshiv]

The market decides.

Even if they added to the gas tax, there is no reason why they would reduce income tax.

Maybe because they'd then be getting more revenue from the gas tax?[/QUOTE]

The market as a reason is a smokescreen. The "reasons" they give to raise the gas prices are bullcrap, we all know that.

Typical comment from them:

"A butterfly farted in Indonisia, so we now have to raise the price of barrels of oil." *rubs hands greedily together* "Hey! You weren't supposed to see that last part!"

The government can never get enough revenue from us. They'll never lessen the one while increasing the other.

 

[TenPenny]

What you have to remember is that the price of oil, like most commodities, is driven by the commodity markets. It's the traders who speculate on what impact floods, fires, etc have on demand, and they drive the prices of the commodities.

Just like everything else, it's the investment bankers and traders who are making the money.

 

[Angstrom]

I'v been e-mailing this to all my friends a few weeks ago. If we all get targuet and boycut one supplyer. we win the war.
Its just a matter of getting people to do it. Try it only 5 min of your day . Email this to friends. and post it on forrrum's

I'll show you a gas boycott!

THIS IS NOT THE 'DON'T BUY' GAS FOR ONE DAY, BUT IT WILL SHOW YOU HOW WE CAN GET GAS BACK DOWN TO $1.30 PER GALLON. ..or .40 Cents/litre(1.82gallon)



If you are tired of the gas prices going up AND they will continue to rise this summer, take time to read this please.

Phillip Hollsworth offered this idea.

This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the "don't buy gas on a certain day" campaign that was going around last April or May!
It's worth your consideration. Join the resistance!!!!

Want gasoline prices to come down?

We need to take some intelligent, united action.
The oil companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to "hurt" ourselves by refusing to buy gas .

It was more of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them.
BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can Really work.

here in Canada it is currently 130.9 a litre(that's $5.64 a gallon)

Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at $1.50 - $1.75, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace..not sellers.


The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves.

How?

But we CAN have an impact on gas prices if we all act together to force a price war.

Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. (USA)



And for Canadians don't purchase ANY gas from Petro Canada,

Esso or Husky..


If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit.

But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do! Now, don't wimp out on me at this point...keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!

I am sending this note to 30 people. If each of us send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300) ... and those 300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000)... and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth group of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers .
If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have been contacted!

If it goes one level further, you guessed it..... THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!

Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all!

(If you don't understand how we can reach 300 million and all you have to do is send this to 10 people.... Well, let's face it, you just aren't a mathematician. But I am . so trust me on this one.

How long would all that take? If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten more people within one day of receipt, all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next 8 days!

I'll bet you didn't think you and I had that much potential, did you! Acting together we can make a difference.


You have only the rights you are willing to fight for!

Be kind, remove all email addresses & use bcc when forwarding; say no to spammers and computer viruses.

 

[lone wolf]

I was talking of a gas tax. Money does not grow on trees, so it's a little disingenuous of you to pretend to oppose taxes if you support the existence of government. Heck, just go onot libertarian forums, and even they debate what kind of taxes to have because even extreme libertarians recognize some kind of tax will be needed to pay for roads. Question is, will everyone pay their fare share. In case you didn't know, the gas industry does not pay its fair share owing to tax exemptions. If we have to pay taxes why not them. Also, if we must have taxes, would a user-pay tax system not make sense? Heck, user-pay seems about as conservative as you can get. The advantage of a gas tax is that it's directly lnked to how much you use the road, unlike income tax. You'll have noticed that, unlike Haprer this election I actually do support the Green party's idea of income splitting for families right away, not later like Harper wants. After all, income tax does not reflect how much you burden public infrastructure, thus creating no built in incentive to use it wisely. A gas tax does. So if Harper is so conservative, why does he oppose income splitting for families right away and also oppose a gas tax? Is he not then supporting a tax that has no bearing on use of public resources and opposing a tax that does? What kind of conservative is he?

Where did you read I oppose taxes? I oppose getting ripped off at the pumps in the name of making corporations and their investors profit. In case you hadn't noticed, gas tax already is a user pay system The more gas I use, the more tax I pay.

 

[shadowshiv]

What you have to remember is that the price of oil, like most commodities, is driven by the commodity markets. It's the traders who speculate on what impact floods, fires, etc have on demand, and they drive the prices of the commodities.

Just like everything else, it's the investment bankers and traders who are making the money.

I know this, but I also know that the majority of their "reasoning" is pure BS(as I am sure you will agree ).

 

[TenPenny]

I'v been e-mailing this to all my friends a few weeks ago. If we all get targuet and boycut one supplyer. we win the war.
Its just a matter of getting people to do it. Try it only 5 min of your day . Email this to friends. and post it on forrrum's

Wouldn't make a lick of difference.

By the way, here in NB, the retail price of gas is regulated - it's set based on the wholesale price at the New York rack, plus margin for transport and retail markup. It wouldn't matter if nobody bought gas for a week, the wholesale price in NY won't change based on a few thousand people in NB not buying gas.

 

[taxslave]

We've been hearing of gas price woes at the pumps lately, along with various strategies on how to cope.

Before we look at solutions, I think we first need to look at the problem. For years governments have been subsidizing the gas industry via tax exemptions etc., resulting in artificially low gas prices. Through in psychology and supply and demand, and you have a recepe for disaster. This artificially low cost of gas over the years has encouraged urbanites to move to the suburbs, farmers to move farther away from the cities, and more people to buy bigger cars and governments to build more highways. Sooner or later this was bound to catch up with us as demand eventually outstripped supply, and now here we are. And since gas is already subsidised, it's not like we can just give gas companies a tax exemption since they already have that!

So if keeping the cost of gas artifically low for years is the cause of high gas costs today, then certainly pushing the price of gas up should achieve the exact opposite effect.

Let's suppose we shifted taxes to gas (e.g. introduce income splititng for families, and raise taxes on gas). Suddenly, with the cost of gas up, farmers would want to move back to the suburbs and suburbanites to the cities, people would want to trade their SUVs in for bicycles and governments would not need to build as many highways anymore. This would drive demand for gas down over time as people adjust to the new lifestyle, resulting eventually to a drop in gas prices. After all, if keeping the price artifially low all these years contributed to the steady increase in demand and thus prices, then certainly bringing the price up is bound to gradually reduce demand over many years and thus prices too.

Simple logic, really.

Gas prices are not artificially low., quite the opposite they are inflated by speculators playing in the commodities markets and excessive taxes. The cure is for everyone to boycott Esso and Petrocan until they lower their prices. By the oil companies own accounting they need about $65/bbl for oil sands oil to breakeven so anything over that is theft. The best cure is to hit the rich speculators in the pocket book by boycotting several brands until they lower their price to make sales.

 

[MHz]

How about a solution to diesel production being 1/4 of what it is now? Say in the next 6 months.

 

[captain morgan]

There is plenty of gas. There is NO excuse for it to be $1.31 a litre. It is greed by the companies, and they should be forced to reduce their prices.

Even if they added to the gas tax, there is no reason why they would reduce income tax.

There is no excuse why an iPhone is $600 in the face of the other options. Everyone has a choice.

Fact is, not liking the price is no reason to demand gvt regulation... Besides, contrary to Machjo's belief, a huge amount of the $1,31/litre IS TAX...

So how about it Machjo, instead of bitching about the gas company making too much, why not rail at gvt for making even more money from the product than the groups that actually find the stuff?