Soldier Suicides at Record Level

[Avro]

Not all, is agreeing with a point of logic that is easily attained with critical thought and a knowledge of the laws of statistics?

Why is it logical? Is it because there are more civilians than those in the military? That is not logical, it's just plain dumb and quite frankly a transparantly week minded argument to protect ego.

Btw, I did some digging, he's wrong and by your arguments I don't have to prove it.

 

[CDNBear]

I think it's probably an indication of the stresses the Americans are under. If it's modern warfare, can we expect similar numbers from the Van Doos, the PPCLI and the RCR in Afghanistan? I sure as hell hope not. The rotations in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan for the Americans seem to be added pressure.

Look at the affects of the conflict and our participation in Bosnia, Croatia.

Whatever the case, it's something that needs to be addressed. Any spike on a graph should be cause for examination.

Sorry if my terminology seemed to negate that ideal.

It was not meant to, and as you know, I have a vest and oft aggressive stance on the positive outcome of the lives of all Military Service personnel.

 

[CDNBear]

Why is it logical? Is it because there are more civilians than those in the military? That is not logical, it's just plain dumb and quite frankly a transparantly week minded argument to protect ego.

Whatever Avro, be combative, it only detracts from your argument.

Btw, I did some digging, he's wrong and by your arguments I don't have to prove it.

Given Tonnington's education, pre-existing knowledge base and his posting over the years, I'll take his evidence, over your assertion.

 

[Tonington]

Look at the affects of the conflict and our participation in Bosnia, Croatia.

I'm not aware of the effects from that conflict, at least on suicide numbers.

Sorry if my terminology seemed to negate that ideal.

It was not meant to, and as you know, I have a vest and oft aggressive stance on the positive outcome of the lives of all Military Service personnel.

No need for apologies. My comment was more my own personal feelings on the matter.

Do enlisted folk have to take psychological testing? I know officers do, but what about the grunts? Maybe the training is enough to weed the flock down? That's kinda why I would expect the rate to be lower than the larger national population.

 

[Avro]

Whatever Avro, be combative, it only detracts from your argument.

Given Tonnington's education, pre-existing knowledge base and his posting over the years, I'll take his evidence, over your assertion.

I'm not being combtive, I merely asked for proof and the run around I recieved is quite predictable and unfortunate.

The problem is Tonnigton hasn't provided any evidence at all and at this point is merely an assertion.

 

[Avro]

That's kinda why I would expect the rate to be lower than the larger national population.

See, assertion.

 

[CDNBear]

I'm not aware of the effects from that conflict, at least on suicide numbers.

I haven't actual numbers, but a personal vantage point not usually accessible to the GP.

Suffice it to say, it wasn't as peaces and cream and cream as some would have you believe. It certainly wasn't what is Afghanistan, but the affects are simular.

Do enlisted folk have to take psychological testing? I know officers do, but what about the grunts? Maybe the training is enough to weed the flock down? That's kinda why I would expect the rate to be lower than the larger national population.

Yes, being some 19 years past, lol, I can't recall the actual in and outs of the process, but there was a screening process. It was revamped after the illumination of the issues of rampant racism in some of the Airborne Regiments. And rightly so. It is imperative that anyone with a propensity to be violent or cruel, without cause and the inability to follow code of good conduct be weeded out.

Given some seriously questionable actions by a certain member of the Faculty of the RMC as of late. I question the strength of the Officer Candidates filter.

 

[Tonington]

See, assertion.

No, that's an inference following from stats. The assertion was where I stated the stats I found.

How do my figures compare to yours? It's really very simple to determine.

Step 1: Start with the national rate of suicide. Found at http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/suicide/SuicideDataSheet.pdf

Step 2: Determine the rate for active military. The figures I found gave 1,426,026. Dividing the latest suicides by active personnel and multiplying by 100,000, that gives us a rate of 8.48 per 100,000.

That's not even including all military, I only chose active duty. If you choose total military, then the number is even smaller.

= (121/ 2,938,210)X 100,000 = 4.12 per 100,000.

In which case Zzarchov was still correct.

 

[Avro]

National rate of 10.6 per 100,000.......in 2006http://faithandfamily.com/article/suicide-statistics

Miltary active duty soldiers is 17.5 per 100,000 in 2006 and we are talking about active duty http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/31/america/troops.php the rate for 2007 is even higher and over double than in 2001 when all this crap started.

Nope, no probelms there.

 

[Tonington]

I haven't actual numbers, but a personal vantage point not usually accessible to the GP.

Suffice it to say, it wasn't as peaces and cream and cream as some would have you believe. It certainly wasn't what is Afghanistan, but the affects are simular.

Mmm. I remember hearing about the problems. I worked with a park ranger who was former Airborne.

Yes, being some 19 years past, lol, I can't recall the actual in and outs of the process, but there was a screening process. It was revamped after the illumination of the issues of rampant racism in some of the Airborne Regiments. And rightly so. It is imperative that anyone with a propensity to be violent or cruel, without cause and the inability to follow code of good conduct be weeded out.

Given some seriously questionable actions by a certain member of the Faculty of the RMC as of late. I question the strength of the Officer Candidates filter.

I thought there probably would be. I had to take a test like that when I applied to the Atlantic Police Academy when I was fresh out of high school. Holy, 3 hours of questions. They ask you in ten different ways the same question, like "Do you think your father is a good person", reworded of course.

I'm sure I won't have any problems with their tests And I have no problem swearing an oath to our Queen.

 

[Tonington]

Miltary active duty soldiers is 17.5 per 100,000 in 2006 and we are talking about active duty http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/31/america/troops.php

Ahh, I see. I was calculating all active military, not only Army. My bad.

 

[Avro]

Ahh, I see. I was calculating all active military, not only Army. My bad.

That is what the thread was about, those serving in Iraq not some dude sunbathing on a boat.

 

[CDNBear]

Ahh, I see. I was calculating all active military, not only Army. My bad.

My bad...But I stand corrected and more importantly, wiser.

Tonnington, I'm shocked and my image of you is shattered.

Nope, no probelms there.

I'd love to see where that was said. Don't answer, it was rhetorical.

 

[Avro]

You're welcome Bear, I'm glad I could clarify things for you since you want to assume something that isn't true.

It was a pleasure schooling you.:lol:

Perhaps in the future you will ask questions instead of being a cute wittle sheep.

Ta Ta

 

[CDNBear]

You're welcome Bear, I'm glad I could clarify things for you since you want to assume something that isn't true.

It was a pleasure schooling you.:lol:

Perhaps in the future you will ask questions instead of being a cute wittle sheep.

Ta Ta

Grow up. I'd still take Tonnington's word over yours any day.

Ass.

And this post is a perfect example of why. You lack the maturity and integrity he possesses. No amount of 'schooling' will help you there.

 

[Avro]

Grow up. I'd still take Tonnington's word over yours any day.

Ass.

I know, peoples biases dictate what they believe dear boy and you just proved it.

Thanks.:lol:

Now I'm sure you will now take old Zar to task on this now right?:roll:

NOT!

LMAO!

 

[CDNBear]

I know, peoples biases dictate what they believe dear boy and you just proved it.

Thanks.:lol:

Now I'm sure you will now take old Zar to task on this now right?:roll:

NOT!

LMAO!

Laugh all you wish, it will only make this easier to force feed you...

You are applying non supported 2006 data from a Christian fundamentalist site.

Though you may finally achieve that level of proof that makes you feel like big boy, try being a lil more factual in your attempts to belittle others.

Perhaps if you avoided the juvenile antics of "pwnd" you employ all to readily, you could concentrate better.

 

[Zzarchov]

If those numbers are correct Avro then you are correct.

So we have 34 suicides in Iraq during active duty, but isn't that a bit of a narrowed view? Its a high stress situation, if you take such a narrow view of one group, could one not offer an equally narrow view of other segments? I don't have the exact segments, but I know lottery winners have unusually high suicide rates.


But saying 'Soldiers undergoing the most stressful period of their careers" are more likely to commit suicide than the average civilian in everyday situations isn't that big of a surprise.

How do soldier suicides on active duty compare to civilian rates in trying situations? Divorce? Raising a new Child?

How about comparing a soldiers suicide rate in Iraq versus when going through a divorce? If the divorce rate is higher should we forbid soldiers from getting divorced?


Quite frankly, while suicides are very rarely a good thing (and yes sometimes they are, when done rationally and in a lucid state), They are also not something you can reduce to zero anymore than any other aspect of society. The importance is seeing the rates of comparison.

 

[CDNBear]

If those numbers are correct Avro then you are correct.

They are, but they are not confirmed. The American Association of Suicidology is one of Americas leading research and prevention groups.

They continuously update their site when data is finalized. 2006, has not been finalized.

So we have 34 suicides in Iraq during active duty, but isn't that a bit of a narrowed view? Its a high stress situation, if you take such a narrow view of one group, could one not offer an equally narrow view of other segments? I don't have the exact segments, but I know lottery winners have unusually high suicide rates.

In Avro's defence, that wasn't what you said.

The rate of suicides among soldiers who served in Iraq..is still lower than the rate of suicides among the general populace.

But saying 'Soldiers undergoing the most stressful period of their careers" are more likely to commit suicide than the average civilian in everyday situations isn't that big of a surprise.

How do soldier suicides on active duty compare to civilian rates in trying situations? Divorce? Raising a new Child?

How about comparing a soldiers suicide rate in Iraq versus when going through a divorce? If the divorce rate is higher should we forbid soldiers from getting divorced?


Quite frankly, while suicides are very rarely a good thing (and yes sometimes they are, when done rationally and in a lucid state), They are also not something you can reduce to zero anymore than any other aspect of society. The importance is seeing the rates of comparison.

All preliminary evidence shows that the rate of suicide among military aged men in the same time period is at 19.9/1000,000

Link

I won't take you to 'task' as indicated that I should by some. I believe this was an error, but one based on critical thought not sensationalism, or in some way reading into something to come up with a self serving agenda driven reply. Besides, you're just not a loathsome, childish ass like some people.

 

[Zzarchov]

Also in my defence:

The suicide rate of those who have served in Iraq and those who are serving in Iraq are also two different things.
The rate of suicide of army soldiers currently serving in Iraq is also different than soldiers who have served in Iraq. There is also the Marines, the Airforce and even the Navy (though I can see them being alot less stressed out)

But Avro is still correct that those in front-line combat in the army now have a higher percentage of suicide than those outside of combat.

But its still (using your number) 0.000199% kill themselves, and 0.02% that die otherwise (using 200k troops from high point and 4000 deaths as approximations).

In civil society the rate is 0.000116% for suicide right? (I may have that number mixed from somewhere else.)

I don't think this is the huge sensationalist issue implied in the original post. But I was wrong about the nitty gritty and I apologize.