Should Military be used to keep Quebec in confederation

Semperfi_dani

Electoral Member
Nov 1, 2005
482
0
16
Edmonton
RE: Should Military be us

Simple answer..No.

But can i ask...with the amount of quebec seperation threads lately...is there something going on that those outside of the central vacuum should be aware of? I did not realize it was even an issue lately, but maybe im sheltered living in Alberta. But i have not seen seperation talk on the news, ....???...????
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Ummm Canada may be going against international laws if we do so. When Parliments in the past have declared independance they have usually been regonized by the UN. Also when the ethnic magority declare independance this is often see as a legit way, but a democratic referendum, for sure would be regonized by many nations right away and the UN. If we used military might to keep Quebec in Confederation it would be just as bad as Serbia keeping Kosovo in the Yugoslav Union.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Whats the big deal over Belguim. Split it and have a North Belguim and a South Belgium and be done with it.

These are only lines drawn on a piece of paper and those lines have been changing for millenia.

Same applies to Quebec. What is the big deal? What value is there keeping separate and distinct culture together.

Divorce happens when parties are too different.

Vive La Deferance! Let every people's people go their own separate way.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
:arrow: The Separation of Québec from Canada

À mon avis, la province du Québec ne devrait pas avoir le droit de se séparer du Canada, à moins que la province le faire selon la Loi constitutionelle de 1982. Les citoyens et les citoyennes du Québec ne possèdent pas la province; plûtot, ils habitent là. Le Québec, c'est une partie intégrale du Canada, et les citoyens et les citoyennes du Canada (les citoyens des toutes les provinces) ont le droit de se déplacent dans et hors du Québec — alors, le Québec appartient à tous les citoyens et les citoyennes du Canada. C'est la même chose pour toutes les autres provinces.

Therefore, since Québec is just as much home to the rest of Canada as it is to Quebecers, any separation must be made in accordance with the laws that the rest of Canada has agreed to — whether or not the National Assembly of Québec saw it appropriate to sign onto the Constitution Act, 1982 — the province is nonetheless bound to its provisions, just as much as any other province, or territory, in Canada. A referendum for separation is not, in my opinion, just cause to attempt to usurp the Government of Canada and the texts of our constitution in an effort to separate from the union in an unlawful manner.

Si le Québec veut vraiment se séparer du Canada, puis un député ou une députée du Bloc Québécois devrait introduire un Loi pour la séparation du Québec dans la Chambre des communes, et les députés et députées devraient débattre longuement le sujet. Si la Chambre s'accord que le Québec devrait se séparer du Canada, puis le Sénat doit débattre la même sujet, pour confirmer que c'est une idée sage.

If the two chambers of the Parliament of Canada agree on the provisions of any such Act, then the debate comes upon the Legislative Assemblies of the Provinces. To remove a province from Confederation, at least seven out of ten legislatures must consent to the Act in the same form, and those legislatures must represent at least one-half of the citizens of Canada, with the exclusion of those citizens who reside in a territory. Only with these stages of consent does the Act, with the consent of the Governor General of Canada, become law — and this is the way it should be, in my opinion.

:!: P.S.

Sorry if my use of the French language recently has been an inconvenience to the membership; since I don't have any registered French courses to take for a few months, I need to keep up my use of the language to ensure that I keep sharp, in terms of what I've learned from my French courses here in the Province of British Columbia. I tend to make my posts bilingual, since the Discussion française forum is, more or less, dead.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
I don't think thats the question Paradox. Yes we know how Canada has determined for Quebec the only canadian legal way to leave, which is not in line with international standerds, but if Quebec seperated would Canada use a military opition to keep quebec and if it should. Which I have answered, pretty much, no way, unless Canada wishes to become a western rogue nation.

Though I think these questions are pretty silly as I do not even think a Conservative, Liberal or NDP government would every go to such extremes. We'd try to talk things over, perhaps use other nations to mediate.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
But the way that Canada is constructed, I don't think that any province should have the right to remove itself without the consent of Canada. Citizens have the right move freely between the provinces — each province is as much our home as the next. Québec is part of my home country, and I have the right to go there and come back as I please — if someone decides they want to separate, I want to have my two cents thrown in, too. It's not trying to separate a province from Canada — it's trying to separate a part of Canada from Canada.
 

zoofer

Council Member
Dec 31, 2005
1,274
2
38
In moi humble opinion (see 5Par, I use French too), Quebec has refined the use of separation threats to blackmail ROC into pork and special perks.
They have received $220 billion more from ROC that they paid into Canada. Will they separate and cut off that kind of lolly?
Not likely.
Now they want a chunk of Alberta's oil wealth. Will they get it if they separate?
Not likely.


Quebec's glass house
National Post
Published: Tuesday, April 11, 2006
If the Quebec government believes it has a claim on more of Alberta's resource income because, as it insists, the oil and gas business benefits from heavy federal subsidization, will Quebec also commit to sharing revenue it receives from its own heavily subsidized aerospace industry?

We do not accept the numbers Quebec is using regarding direct and indirect subsidies to the energy industry -- $8.3-billion over the six most recent years on record. But even if that figure were accurate, it would pale in comparison to federal subsidies to Quebec's aircraft manufacturers over the same period.

That is not to mention federal protection of Quebec's dairy and pork industries. And preferential treatment in defence contracts. And non-repayable loans for factories. And so on.

In the last four decades, Quebec and Quebec-based companies have received from Ottawa almost $220-billion more than they have paid back into Confederation. Before Jean Charest, the Quebec premier, goes any further in his argument that Alberta should be obliged to pay more in equalization because of federal subsidies to its key industry, he might want to look around at the glass house Quebec lives in.

Alberta is already far and away the largest per capita contributor to federal equalization and transfers. Since 2002, Albertans' net contributions each year have averaged $14,000 per family, or $3,500 per person. That is five times the national average -- nearly three-and-a-half times more than second-place Ontario. Since interregional wealth transfer became a major federal goal in the early 1960s, Alberta has paid into Confederation $244-billion more than it has taken out.

Nor does the rest of the country benefit only from the enormous taxes Albertans pay into the federal equalization and transfer schemes. Take the oilsands projects in northern Alberta. Over the next 15 years, these are expected to generate nearly $900-billion in new economic activity. From that amount, governments will reap $123-billion, according to the Canadian Energy Research Institute. And of that amount, Ottawa will grab the biggest single share -- $51-billion. Almost one-third of the jobs created in oilsands exploration and service will be created outside Alberta, and almost one-third of those in Ontario. Approximately 12% will be in Quebec.

A major revamping of the federal transfer arrangements is long overdue. Indeed, the first step in such a reworking should come later this month or early next, when the Expert Panel on Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing (EPETFF) will issue its final report. All major moves by Ottawa should wait at least until then.

One consideration that should be added to transfer calculations, however, is a recipient province's ability to spend what it receives wisely. Because of its wealth, Alberta is an easy target of calls for greater contributions. But what of Quebec's own profligacy? It has always been one of the freest spending provinces. Its provincial debt sits at $117-billion, 44% of provincial GDP -- by far the largest burden of any province. Even if Alberta is flush with cash at the moment, why should that oblige it to underwrite the overspending of another province?

If Quebec governments like to dream big and spend big, that should be their business. But Ottawa should not help Quebec City cast around for other sources of income outside the province just because that is more palatable for Quebec politicians.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/....html?id=3ac4aad5-e033-491e-bde9-33ba6054166b
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Québec's Place in Confederation

Activating politician mode... Stand by...

The fact of the matter is, Finder, that Québec is a province of Canada — of Canada, and not over Canada. Québec is bound by the laws of Canada, and therefore, the Constitution Act, 1982, and its predecessors. I think that it's important to recognize that the Statutes of Canada should be respected by any parties that would be involved in a separation debate, and I think that certain measures would be justified, in ensuring that those Statutes are respected.

:p
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
That was not the question Paradox, where you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party... opps thats next week. Do you believe that Canada should use the military to keep Quebec in Confederation.... Yes or No! Yes or No Sir....
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Finder, I have made my position quite clear. I think that Canada would be justified in using certain measures to ensure that the Statutes of Canada are protected and respected by any parties involved in a separation debate, including Québec. The Constitution must be respected by all Canadians, including Quebecers, and I'm surprised that the honourable gentleman would—

Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh!

Hon. Speaker: Order, please! Order! The Honourable Finder has the floor!
 

Canadian with a hyphen

Electoral Member
Apr 9, 2006
348
0
16
Calgary
when I first posted this thread , I didn't mean to bring a subject that is going to seperate us canadians -I agree it is the last thing we need-
but I think you guys all agree that " Canada , Quebec and the constitution " is topical.
what actually trigered my thread is that I just came back from visiting the Gaspe ( e with an accent francais) Peninsula where I met a gentlman in his 50's that refers to himself only as a quebecer who said that he was never offered independance and it hurts him ,he was very frustrated with Quebec being part of Canada .
He simply said that the day of the republic of Quebec will come soon.
when I packed and came back to Calgary , I swear I felt like I'm back in another country .
Semperfi... I appologize ... I don't like the seperation talk nor I'm encouraging it - My canada includes Quebec and always will - I hope.

It made me realize that Le parti Quebecois holds this land in the palm of its hand and only through luck and incompetency have we not had a seperation as of yet .
Le parti Quebecois ... the only party I have ever heard of whose stated goal is to overthrow of a democratic country and the physical seperation of a sovereign nation that is allowed to exist .
today, I ask myself how long is going to be before the bombshell event happens.

I also wonder , Are the conservatives going to play it right , are we going to solve this issue once and for all?

P.S. for Five paradox - ur french is not inconvenient to me
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
So then Mr Paradox, "I think that Canada would be justified in using certain measures to ensure that the Statutes of Canada" you are saying use, the Canadian Armed forces should be used in the case of the Province of Quebec were to vote in a referendum and democratically chose to leave Canada. Thus you are in favour of the occupation of Quebec by Canada. Is this not right?
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
No province should have the right to decide, on its own, that the opinion of Canada no longer matters. No province has the right to decide, on a referendum, to veto the Constitution Act, 1982, and whatever provisions may come with the package. No province has the right to expect the safety and security of Canada, where an attempt is being made to overthrow Her Majesty the Queen of Canada in right of a province.
 

Canadian with a hyphen

Electoral Member
Apr 9, 2006
348
0
16
Calgary
Finder said:
That was not the question Paradox, where you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party... opps thats next week. Do you believe that Canada should use the military to keep Quebec in Confederation.... Yes or No! Yes or No Sir....

Finder ... how much would you charge to keep everyone on the track of the question?
I think u do a good job ...YOU ARE HIRED .......

Rachelle-
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Canadian with a hyphen, here... don't want the job. lol

Paradox, thus you are saying the military should be used as an occupational force in any province which uses democratic means of achieving inpendance from Canada, but not the legal means which Canada has manufactored!

So why didn't you simply say yes.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Because it's not that simple. I don't think a unilateral referendum for independence, with all due respect, Finder, is democratic. It ignores a majority of Canadians, and therefore should not be binding. The Province of Québec is just as much a part of my home as is the Province of British Columbia. Every Canadian should have a say, through our representatives, if we're going to decide to separate a room from this house.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Re: RE: Should Military be used to keep Quebec in confederat

FiveParadox said:
.... Citizens have the right move freely between the provinces
Except Quebec if you don't speak french you can't.

They keep non-fench Canadians out by making it inconvinient without understanding the language.

It is the same process that is used by the Conseil Scolaire du District Centre Sud Ouest in Ontario to get public funded education segregated for French Speaking families in Ontario, that make it INCONVENIENT for non-french speaking canadians to send their children there, thus keeping themselves separate from the rest of Canadians to prevent contaminating their culture.

I can't believe people are so gullible and can't see through the scams that use the French language as an excuse.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Then learn the language, or bring a dictionary.

From previous posts, iamcanadian, I know that you think the French language is beneath you — but if you're going to go to Québec, use your common sense. And either way, it's possible to get by wherever you are in Canada. Humans have a remarkable way of getting their points across.