Should entrapment ever be an excuse?

[Machjo]

Well maybe before they enlist they should be told to learn English or take the risks!

I don't think it was a matter of English as a second language. It looked more like English might be a first language, but maybe they were jsut quasi-illiterate.

Need I mention that the judge ruled in favour of the accused on that one?

That comes down to a problem in our school system. I don't expect a detective to hold a Ph.D. But fer cryin' out loud, be at least functionally literate!

 

[JLM]

I don't think it was a matter of English as a second language. It looked more like English might be a first language, but maybe they were jsut quasi-illiterate.

Need I mention that the judge ruled in favour of the accused on that one?

That comes down to a problem in our school system. I don't expect a detective to hold a Ph.D. But fer cryin' out loud, be at least functionally literate!

I listen to radio announcers all the time who are barely literate, so it's tough to expect anyone else to be literate.

 

[bobnoorduyn]

Now there's a classic example where I'd say both the cops and the homeowner shoudl face their resepctive charges. Now if it was done that way, I suppose the cops could cut a deal with the home owner. Don't report us and we won't charge you.

And just how do the cops get the street wrong?

Given they'll be crashing doors down, you'd think they'd check and double check to be sure they have the right address.

The homeowner did face charges, but the evidence was gathered unlawfully. The cops, no harm no foul. Secondly, cops can't make deals, and if they did the homeowner wouldn't get the damage they made repaired, which they are required to do, but that's all they are required to do.


That is not the most egregious case of mistaken identity or location, it happened in Quebec, of course, where the QPP, now the SDQ I suppose, exercised a warrant on a motel room. It was a high risk takedown so they too made a dynamic entry and sprayed the room with SMG fire, (funny how the French police both here and in France favour Submachineguns), oops! Wrong room, they killed two carpet layers, too bad so sad, they were just doing their duty, just not that well.


It did also happen, again in Quebec, and again at the wrong address, where police made a dynamic entry but failed to identify themselves. The homeowner and his family cowered in the main bedroom, believing they were victims of a home invasion, whereupon the homeowner armed himself with a high powered revolver, a .357 Mag. if I remember correctly. He shot through the bedroom door as an SDQ officer was trying to make entry killing him. He was acquitted of all charges other than having a restricted firearm in a place other than where he was supposed to have it. I believe he was also acquitted of that charge too, but I'm not sure.


So you can probably see why I would never endorse giving police any more leeway than they already have. In fact I am in favour of more restrictions on them.

 

[Machjo]

The homeowner did face charges, but the evidence was gathered unlawfully. The cops, no harm no foul. Secondly, cops can't make deals, and if they did the homeowner wouldn't get the damage they made repaired, which they are required to do, but that's all they are required to do.


That is not the most egregious case of mistaken identity or location, it happened in Quebec, of course, where the QPP, now the SDQ I suppose, exercised a warrant on a motel room. It was a high risk takedown so they too made a dynamic entry and sprayed the room with SMG fire, (funny how the French police both here and in France favour Submachineguns), oops! Wrong room, they killed two carpet layers, too bad so sad, they were just doing their duty, just not that well.


It did also happen, again in Quebec, and again at the wrong address, where police made a dynamic entry but failed to identify themselves. The homeowner and his family cowered in the main bedroom, believing they were victims of a home invasion, whereupon the homeowner armed himself with a high powered revolver, a .357 Mag. if I remember correctly. He shot through the bedroom door as an SDQ officer was trying to make entry killing him. He was acquitted of all charges other than having a restricted firearm in a place other than where he was supposed to have it. I believe he was also acquitted of that charge too, but I'm not sure.


So you can probably see why I would never endorse giving police any more leeway than they already have. In fact I am in favour of more restrictions on them.

Oh wow!

I totally agree. As for entrapment, perhaps we can make a distinction between throwing a line and waiting for the fish to bite of their own free will and throwing a net out in the water to catch the fish no matter what.

As for the first, let's call it passive entrapment, The second might be called coersion. The second should be outright criminal.

But you've given me food for thought here. Maybe it is wise to chuck out any proof collected through entrapment. But damn, what a catch-22! On the one hand, we don't want to tie the cops' hands behind their backs so they can't do their jobs. On the other hand, we need to protect ourselves from the cops too.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I think any means that gets criminals caught, charged and convicted should be legal as long as the criminal is guilty. That doesn't apply if evidence is planted against him, but entrapment is nothing more than inviting the criminal to expose his illegal activity.

So, torture to produce confessions is OK with you?

And before you start whining, you said "any means."

 

[JLM]

So, torture to produce confessions is OK with you?

And before you start whining, you said "any means."

I would also add "there are exceptions to every rule" - which are generally unclear until the right situation arises!

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I would also add "there are exceptions to every rule" - which are generally unclear until the right situation arises!

So, how many people do you want tortured to "clarify?"

 

[MHz]

You get any knocks on your door over drug trafficking yet??

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Take your pills.

 

[Corduroy]

I would also add "there are exceptions to every rule" - which are generally unclear until the right situation arises!

You could have just said the ends justify the means.

 

[JLM]

You could have just said the ends justify the means.

OK, the end justifies the means....................happy to oblige.

So, how many people do you want tortured to "clarify?"

Possibly none.

 

[selfsame]

To me, if a person breaks the law, entrapped or not, he should pay the price.

Of course we can make entrapment illegal and maybe fine or imprison a police officer that does so, or demote or fire him, or a combination of these. Fine.

But as for the guilty party, entrapped or not, he still broke the law and so should be punished too.

Your thoughts on this?

Entrapment: I understand: you make trap for people to see who will fall in the trap!?

If this is it: then it is the deception .. i.e. you enhance people to commit the wrong act, then you come and punish them .. this is not correct, unfair and non-moral.

Therefore, spying on people, and pursuing the faults of people so as to expose them; this is condemned.

=================================================================

A narrated traditional story:

Caliph Omar used to go by night, to see the condition of people.

One day, he passed by a house: and heard the sounds of laughter, rapture and the drums, so he jumped from the window, and said to the men there: You will be punished for your wine drinking.

The man of the house answered him: If we have committed one wrong act, you yourself have committed three forbidden acts!

Omar said: How is this?
The man said:
1- You came from the window, while God said: Come to houses by the door.
2- You came without asking permission of the people of the house, while God said: You should not go into houses unless you ask permission of the people of the house.
3- You came into the house without saying: Salam to you; while God forbid that you come into the house unless you ask permission and salute the people of the house.

I add to these three conditions, two other points:
4- people should not spy on each other
As God forbids it in the Quran 49: 12, which means:
{And do not spy d}
...............................................................

d i.e. do not seek after the flaws and defects of Muslims; because anyone who seeks after the flaws and defects of Muslims to expose them, God will expose him even in his family.

5- God - be glorified - said in the Quran 17: 36, which means:
{And do not go after the [flaws of your Muslim brother j j] about which you [man] have no knowledge; for the hearing, the sight and the [spiritual] heart k k, of all these it shall be inquired.}
.............................................................

36 j j So as to expose him; but O Muslim, cover the flaws of your Muslim brother and don’t expose him.
This is like His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 49: 12, which means:
(and do not spy [i.e. do not seek after the flaws and defects of Muslims; because anyone who seeks after the flaws and defects of Muslims to expose them, God will expose him even in his family.]
nor let some of you backbite others [i.e. do not mention anyone of you, when he is absent, with something he dislikes.] )

36 k k The ‘hearing’, the ‘sight’ and the ‘[spiritual] heart’; all these are the special senses of the soul
The meaning: It is the soul that will be judged and questioned on Judgment Day, not the body. And I have explained about the special senses of the soul in my book Man after Death

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/17.htm#a17_36

 

[Durry]

Entrapment: I understand: you make trap for people to see who will fall in the trap!?

If this is it: then it is the deception .. i.e. you enhance people to commit the wrong act, then you come and punish them .. this is not correct, unfair and non-moral.

Therefore, spying on people, and pursuing the faults of people so as to expose them; this is condemned.

A narrated traditional story:

The man of the house answered him: If we have committed one wrong act, you yourself have committed three forbidden acts!
Omar said: How is this?
The man said:
1- You came from the window, while God said: Come to
...............................................................

]http://quran-ayat.com36[/url]

This is perfectly legal if they are filthy Muslims. The law is designed to have Muslims get out of N America

 

[selfsame]

This is perfectly legal if they are filthy Muslims. The law is designed to have Muslims get out of N America

The filthy in fact is you.

One of the past presidents of the US suggested that Zionists should not be allowed to come to America; for almost they will corrupt and destroy it; he said.
But others said: We cannot prevent anyone coming to the US, because we are democratic.
He said: You will regret this.

Now, it is proved he was right; America will be destroyed (and are being destroyed in fact) by Zionists and bankers, who will cause complete destruction and ruining of America.

 

[Durry]

The filthy in fact is you.

One of the past presidents of the US suggested that Zionists should not be allowed to come to America; for almost they will corrupt and destroy it; he said.
But others said: We cannot prevent anyone coming to the US, because we are democratic.
He said: You will regret this.

Now, it is proved he was right; America will be destroyed (and are being destroyed in fact) by Zionists and bankers, who will cause complete destruction and ruining of America.

It's only the filthy Muslims that are causing problems in N America just like they do in every country they go to.

ALL Muslim countries are pure sh^teholes.

Muslims like to crawl into Christain countries because Christians are such great people they even look after scum Muslims

 

[Ludlow]

Entrapment: I understand: you make trap for people to see who will fall in the trap!?

If this is it: then it is the deception .. i.e. you enhance people to commit the wrong act, then you come and punish them .. this is not correct, unfair and non-moral.

Therefore, spying on people, and pursuing the faults of people so as to expose them; this is condemned.

=================================================================

A narrated traditional story:

Caliph Omar used to go by night, to see the condition of people.

One day, he passed by a house: and heard the sounds of laughter, rapture and the drums, so he jumped from the window, and said to the men there: You will be punished for your wine drinking.

The man of the house answered him: If we have committed one wrong act, you yourself have committed three forbidden acts!

Omar said: How is this?
The man said:
1- You came from the window, while God said: Come to houses by the door.
2- You came without asking permission of the people of the house, while God said: You should not go into houses unless you ask permission of the people of the house.
3- You came into the house without saying: Salam to you; while God forbid that you come into the house unless you ask permission and salute the people of the house.

I add to these three conditions, two other points:
4- people should not spy on each other
As God forbids it in the Quran 49: 12, which means:
{And do not spy d}
...............................................................

d i.e. do not seek after the flaws and defects of Muslims; because anyone who seeks after the flaws and defects of Muslims to expose them, God will expose him even in his family.

5- God - be glorified - said in the Quran 17: 36, which means:
{And do not go after the [flaws of your Muslim brother j j] about which you [man] have no knowledge; for the hearing, the sight and the [spiritual] heart k k, of all these it shall be inquired.}
.............................................................

36 j j So as to expose him; but O Muslim, cover the flaws of your Muslim brother and don’t expose him.
This is like His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 49: 12, which means:
(and do not spy [i.e. do not seek after the flaws and defects of Muslims; because anyone who seeks after the flaws and defects of Muslims to expose them, God will expose him even in his family.]
nor let some of you backbite others [i.e. do not mention anyone of you, when he is absent, with something he dislikes.] )

36 k k The ‘hearing’, the ‘sight’ and the ‘[spiritual] heart’; all these are the special senses of the soul
The meaning: It is the soul that will be judged and questioned on Judgment Day, not the body. And I have explained about the special senses of the soul in my book Man after Death

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/17.htm#a17_36

What does the Koran have to do with this topic Selfslop. Shyt you're worse than Ralph in the Big Lewbowski. Dummy.

 

[selfsame]

It's only the filthy Muslims that are causing problems in N America just like they do in every country they go to.

ALL Muslim countries are pure sh^teholes.

Muslims like to crawl into Christain countries because Christians are such great people they even look after scum Muslims

Sedition makers are these Zionists.

Therefore, you want to provoke Christians against Muslims .. so as to sit aside and laugh.

Your trickery is exposed in fact; and people never trust the snake or scorpion, neither do they trust Shylock. :lol:

 

[eh1eh]

Sedition makers are these Zionists.

Therefore, you want to provoke Christians against Muslims .. so as to sit aside and laugh.

Your trickery is exposed in fact; and people never trust the snake or scorpion, neither do they trust Shylock. :lol:

They don't trust any biblical characters if truth be told. Who would given their track record.

 

[MHz]

Soooooo, my long lost friend, have I told you about this golden opportunity I found that is based in Nigeria. Hardly anyone is cashing in on some very good fortune. Might I have a moment of you time and you VISA number?? (this is the the stupid line test of the day)

 

[personal touch]

Cops are Cops,what else could one say,self explanatory