Should Canadian tax payers be funding abortion?
- Thread starter mikemac
- Start date
I forgot to mention that yes, lasic surgery improves one's life but they can get by without it; but what of the unwanted pregnancy? It does go away on its own after nine months. It is not a medically necessary procedure in many cases, just an elective one. Again, why should we collectively pay for it when so many more life altering procedures are denied?
I doubt very much if there's very many people opposed to abortions in the case of tubal pregnancies.
oh dear. If we were to itemize all the ways in which society is mismanaged, we'd be here til our fingers were little bloody stumps at the keyboard. 8O
Worse than turning a blind eye when children are brought into a world that is unprepared to care for them appropriately? Different colours of shameful, that's all.
I find it hard to believe that adoption is the panacea to the problem - not everyone lining up for a baby should get one. Adoption is the band-aid - to solve the problem you have to go much much deeper.... and begin to address some of the deeper underlying issues that lead to abortion - such as stigma, systemic/generational poverty, violence against women, cultural pressures, lack of education, resources etc.
Your ideals are wonderful Anna, but after working in the line of work I used to do I'm telling you straight up: your ideals are a luxury. Kudos to you for having them - there needs to be a standard that we aim for, but at this time they don't stand the test of real life - not everyone is afforded the same protected environment to develop ideals and actually live by them. You said you were placed in the position of making that choice - but you didn't walk in the shoes of someone who had NO supports or foreseeable resources to empower her to keep her child. You think you know how you'd handle it, but until you're tested in a real life situation - not sorta kinda the same situation, but actually the same.... you really don't know.
I can't verify the stats on this without doing far more research than I really want to:
The post you were replying to, was trying to tell us the prolifers were against ALL abortions.
I know. So, does that mean we correct it where and when we can or just accept everything and keep screwing up?
I see your point, but in a society where the vast majority of kids are not that badly off, we have to kill for the sake of convenience? Are the kids of Canada as badly off as those in Columbia or Sudan?
Yup. And the best tool I can think of for that is education.
Is that what I think? Cool. I was wondering. Now I know what I was thinking.
Seriously, I am well aware that not everyone around has the same choices. In which case, it's a matter of numbers. How many do have choices in comparison to how many don't? If you can't afford a kid, it's ignorant, stupid or both to have a kid. Perhaps the gov't should hand out contraceptives like it hands out needles.
Maybe someone can't afford a quarter for a condom. It isn't that much of a stretch to imagine they can't afford a kid. And trying to eat for two is ridiculous if you can't afford a contraceptive.
There's very little excuse for getting pregnant if you know you don't want a kid.
$5.32 for 12 condoms
$7.29 for a tube of contraceptive gel
$20 for 12 diaphragms
$14.95 for 3 sponge
Is it your feeling that Canada's stats would look vastly different? Fair enough, I did a quick google search and couldn't find them neatly packaged for the purposes of this discussion... if you can I'd like to see 'em.
And you think killing a developing life because it would be inconvenient is highly principled?
Here's some recent stats:
Induced abortions per 100 live births
I'm having a hard time finding stats on reasons for aborting.
I found them. Same ones I found before and the one you are stressing accounts for only 21% of abortions. All but about 11% of the other reasons are frivolous. That adds up to 32% of abortions that are relatively reasonable and the one about not affording a kid is pretty weak when contraceptives are cheap like borscht.
Inadequate Finances
21%
Not ready for responsibility
21%
Woman’s life would be changed too much
16%
Problems with relationship; unmarried
12%
Too young; not mature enough
11%
Children are grown; woman has all she wants
8%
Fetus has possible health problem
3%
Woman has health problem
3%
Pregnancy caused by rape, incest
1%
Other
4%
Average number of reasons given
3.7
http://www.abortionincanada.ca/facts/Why_Women_choose_abortion.html
- Since life begins at conception, abortion is akin to murder as it is the act of taking human life. Abortion is in direct defiance of the commonly accepted idea of the sanctity of human life
- No civilized society permits one human to intentionally harm or take the life of another human without punishment, and abortion is no different.
- Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.
- An abortion can result in medical complications later in life; the risk of ectopic pregnancies doubles, and the chance of a miscarriage and pelvic inflammatory disease also increases.
- In the instance of rape and incest, proper medical care can ensure that a woman will not get pregnant. Abortion punishes the unborn child who committed no crime; instead, it is the perpetrator who should be punished.
- Abortion should not be used as another form of contraception.
- For women who demand complete control of their body, control should include preventing the risk of unwanted pregnancy through the responsible use of contraception or, if that is not possible, through abstinence.
- Many Americans who pay taxes are opposed to abortion, therefore it's morally wrong to use tax dollars to fund abortion.
- Those who choose abortions are often minors or young women with insufficient life experience to understand fully what they are doing. Many have lifelong regrets afterwards.
- Abortion frequently causes intense psychological pain and stress.
Pro-Choice
- Nearly all abortions take place in the first trimester, when a fetus cannot exist independent of the mother. As it is attached by the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot exist outside her womb.
- The concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but fertilized eggs used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are routinely thrown away. Is this murder, and if not, then how is abortion murder?
- Adoption is not an alternative to abortion, because it remains the woman's choice whether or not to give her child up for adoption. Statistics show that very few women who give birth choose to give up their babies - less than 3% of white unmarried women and less than 2% of black unmarried women.
- Abortion is a safe medical procedure. The vast majority of women - 88% - who have an abortion do so in their first trimester. Medical abortions have less than 0.5% risk of serious complications and do not affect a woman's health or future ability to become pregnant or give birth.
- In the case of rape or incest, forcing a woman made pregnant by this violent act would cause further psychological harm to the victim. Often a woman is too afraid to speak up or is unaware she is pregnant, thus the morning after pill is ineffective in these situations.
- Abortion is not used as a form of contraception. Pregnancy can occur even with responsible contraceptive use. Only 8% of women who have abortions do not use any form of birth control, and that is due more to individual carelessness than to the availability of abortion.
- The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to civil rights. Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope. If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, what about forcing a woman to use contraception or undergo sterilization?
- Taxpayer dollars are used to enable poor women to access the same medical services as rich women, and abortion is one of these services. Funding abortion is no different from funding a war in the Mideast. For those who are opposed, the place to express outrage is in the voting booth.
- Teenagers who become mothers have grim prospects for the future. They are much more likely to leave of school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; develop health problems; or end up divorced.
- Like any other difficult situation, abortion creates stress. Yet the American Psychological Association found that stress was greatest prior to an abortion, and that there was no evidence of post-abortion syndrome.
Pretty sure that just veered off into ".... uhhh ... what?" 'Cause that's not even close to what I was trying to say.
The sake of convenience. Oh boy - that's really irking me. It's not convenient. Not even close - and to tell the truth - it's a cop out to put it that way. It totally negates the need to look at the real problem in any kind of meaningful, take-action kind of way.
With the repetitive determination you're having in choosing NOT to see the bigger issues with any sense of human compassion, or exposure to the reality of the problem - I'm talking on the ground- eyes, hands, heart and soul on the front lines - with the same people you're condemning so blithely..the same people struggling to contend with this - not on a forum they can shut off when they tire of it.... but in their daily lives... I'm not sure how to discuss this with you any deeper. If there has to be an "I'm right and you're wrong conclusion to any discussion on this subject, the losers will continue to be the babies, the mothers ... and ultimately us - for failing to address a humanitarian issue with humanitarian approaches.
Can't argue with that.
Is that what I think? Cool. I was wondering. Now I know what I was thinking.
I believed I was paraphprasing you from another post earlier in this thread.
I posted a link previously that states one in seven children live in poverty. I'm assuming we can safely apply that stat to their mothers too.
Correct - much like very little excuse for obesity, alcoholism, drug abuse, and a host of other issues we inflict upon our complicated screwed up human selves. We have established resources, institutions and all sorts of methods of treating people suffering from these illnesses bourne of stupidity and ignorance too. Cherry picking one to throw stones at from a safe distance doesn't change the fact that we have resources available for all our dysfunctional abuses of ourselves and others precisely because we are often an ignorant, stupid species... and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
And here I must reiterate - for every finger that points in blame, another opportunity to actually make a measurable difference in the outcome to this problem is lost. Now who's taking the easy way out?
Fortunately, we're also capable of unfathomable greatness, learning from our mistakes, and finding compassion in the deepest, crustiest recesses of our hearts - and maybe one day, this is what will make it possible for every single human being conceived to be born ... with a fair shot at a the same quality of life as you or I.
It was a question, Zan. lol I didn't say you said anything.
Might I remind you from the stats I found:
Woman’s life would be changed too much 16%
Children are grown; woman has all she wants 8%
Those "reasons" sound like a convenience thing to me.
I'm not condemning anyone. I'm simply saying that their are better ways to go than abortion for the majority of circumstances.
?? Pregnancy prevention and adoption aren't humanitarian? It's more humanitarian to give someone an abortion rather than giving them the means of prevention or taking the baby after birth and adopting it out? Am I missing something here?
Look, Zan, I have a lot of compassion for those women and girls who are faced with abortion. It is not an easy thing to go through and I can't think of anything that puts a woman or girl into more emotional turmoil than the possibility of abortion (except for losing a child after giving birth). It's torturous. I'm saying give them the means to avoid pregnancy and alleviate them from the angst of killing by adopting out after birthing.
And I was trying to lighten up the atmosphere.Yup. I can't argue with your post or you on that.
BTW, that stat comes to 14%.
It isn't me. I offered two solutions, one of which is one that you suggested - education. The other is offering free contraceptives to those that can't afford them. It would be cheaper than paying $800 per for the approximately 21,000 women ($16.8 million) who abort because they can't afford to have the child. ($8 a tube for contraceptive gel comes to $168,000).
Hopefully sooner than later.
Last edited: