Should Canadian tax payers be funding abortion?

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Treatment for diabetes or heart problems are different than treatment for aborting because of social reasons, it isn't frivolous. One doesn't get diabetes because they forgot to wear an IUD or a condom. Same with heart procedures or car accidents.

One can get diabetes from eating way too much junk food, pop, etc. when they knew very well that it was unhealthy.

Someone could have heart problems due to a poor diet as well when continually told by their doctor and family to start eating better, reduce stress, etc.

And someone getting into a car accident? Well that depends on if it was preventable and/or they were responsible for the crash.

Seriously, why should I pay for their idiocy and irresponsibility?

That knife cuts both ways and if everybody was allowed a say on what was covers, what wasn't and how.... then we'd have a system that covers nothing and we'd be right back to private insurance.

I want a nose job and everyone else should pay.

I feel the same about kids installing 4kW stereos in their cars and then going deaf by 25 as opposed to going deaf over a genetic reason or by accident. It's a choice.

Choices in which are none of our personal concern. Chances are, you, like me, will end up having some medical condition that stems from something we shouldn't have been doing in our lives, but did anyways. Maybe you rock climb and fell.... maybe you go jogging and bust up your ankle..... maybe you were talking to someone on a cell phone while driving and get plowed in an intersection because you weren't paying attention...... maybe you smoke, drink too much beer, too much meat, not enough meat, too much grease in your food, not enough veggies, maybe you don't sleep enough..... how much calcium are you taking daily?

and so on and so forth... the fact remains that none of us are perfect and most of the times/reasons why we need our health care to help us out is because of something we should have paid more attention to, but didn't.

The only way to somehow try and avoid costing our health care from our own ignorance or stupidity is to lock ourselves away from the rest of the world, live in a bubble and don't do anything..... and then, maybe then, any illness that comes our way will be justified in being covered by our health care.

No wait.... staying inside a bubble inside a safe home for all your life will mean you don't get enough Vitamin D from the sun, so that'd be our fault as well.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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I'm curious: I'd like to see some polls on the subject.....broken down by gender.

I think the entire "men trying to control women's bodies" argument is brain-dead........and should be aborted......

Well I'm a man, and I'm for allowing the woman in question the choice to decide for herself, whether she wants to have one or not.... it is not my concern what women in general decide, but it is my concern when it comes to removing the right to choose, no matter the gender in question.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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"That knife cuts both ways and if everybody was allowed a say on what was covers, what wasn't and how.... then we'd have a system that covers nothing and we'd be right back to private insurance."

Now you are talking sense, we could choose the deductable we want, the coverage we want and pay premiums according to our risk factor..........Like most other insurance.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Oh? How come I had to pay for my daughters' birth control, and now that they are no longer under my roof they have to pay for it themselves? If we personally have to pay for contraception I sure as hell don't want to be collectively paying for others' abortions.

If you went through what my wife had to go through for the last couple of years of not having any medical coverage in Canada, you'd be surprised at how much that cost you pay for jumps.

Hell just to see a doctor, have a 10 minute checkup and a typical prescription for antibiotics cost her over $300..... prescriptions, including birth control varied from being $10 more, to over double the original costs that you and I pay for.

So even though you still pay out money, there is still a level of coverage from our system to make the costs not so bad, and is why most of those Birth Controls out there range around $21, rather then $40 or 50 bucks.

Heck, going into a Walk-In Medical Clinic for any of us is free, yet anybody not covered by our health plan have to pay a flat fee of $30 to have an appointment.... yet in some clinics, we have found out that if you're from another country and not covered, it's up to $70 per appointment. Why? We were only told "That's just the way it is." Which makes no damn sense considering someone who's from another country is the exact same level of human as someone who was born here but has no health coverage.

I can't exactly explain half of the BS that comes from our system as opposed to those not covered by the system, but based on my memory, my wife getting BC from the pharmacy costs her more then it cost any of the women I was in previous relationships with. There is no 100% coverage on contraceptives, but there is some to a degree, depending on where you live and what kind of coverage you have.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Not that many years ago my wife was a registered nurse and she worked at a well known general hospital in Vancouver. I was just finishing off my degree and my wife was working afternoon shifts in obstetrics. Usually, two weekends a month were set aside for abortions. Some women came in for a quick D & C while most were abortions of later term pregnancies, some were almost full term foetuses.
My wife would come home in tears because some of these abortions could have been viable babies and they were killed by the surgeon during the abortion.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Now you are talking sense, we could choose the deductable we want, the coverage we want and pay premiums according to our risk factor..........Like most other insurance.

Well seeing the nightmares in the US over Private Insurance coverage, and how private clinics were introduced here in the Maritimes a few years back, but many of them folded (even though most of them were still getting support/money/doctors/nurses from our universal health care system, which was wrong from the get-go) I'd rather not go that route.

The current system works fine for me and I personally have no reason to not continue to pay into it as I always have, even though plenty of people are getting treatments for things I don't think they should be getting covered.... but that's what you get in a UHC system.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Not that many years ago my wife was a registered nurse and she worked at a well known general hospital in Vancouver. I was just finishing off my degree and my wife was working afternoon shifts in obstetrics. Usually, two weekends a month were set aside for abortions. Some women came in for a quick D & C while most were abortions of later term pregnancies, some were almost full term foetuses.
My wife would come home in tears because some of these abortions could have been viable babies and they were killed by the surgeon during the abortion.

Um... isn't that what's supposed to happen during an abortion procedure? :-?
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Um... isn't that what's supposed to happen during an abortion procedure? :-?

Praxius wake up. We all know that the baby is killed during an abortion. It' just that a full term baby is a full term baby. I don't know of any way to justify the killing of a baby that could have lived.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Praxius wake up. We all know that the baby is killed during an abortion. It' just that a full term baby is a full term baby. I don't know of any way to justify the killing of a baby that could have lived.

It's homicide #Juan but thanks to Trudeau's charter it can be deemed justifiable homicide.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Praxius wake up. We all know that the baby is killed during an abortion. It' just that a full term baby is a full term baby. I don't know of any way to justify the killing of a baby that could have lived.

Say that to a woman who just got raped.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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A November 2009 poll by Environics Research Group for Life Canada found that:
* 18 percent of those polled said women should pay for abortions themselves or have them funded by private insurers, not public funds.
* 49 percent said public funds should be used for abortions only in emergency situations such as rape, incest or threat to the mother’s life.
* In total, 67 percent oppose public funding of most or all abortions.

This 67 percent is close to the figure for those who want some legal protection for the unborn, which is 66 percent.

Considering $80 million a year is probably an underestimate of how much taxpayers spend on medically unnecessary abortions I can understand the results of the poll.

Where is that poll, Mike? I didn't see it at the site you have given.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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To get back to the point, no, taxpayers shouldn't be funding abortions unless they are 'medically necessary'.

They certainly should be available, but not covered by medicare.

People do not value what they do not pay for.

I don’t see why abortion should be singled out as the medical procedure for non payment. That is only because of the small but noisy prolife minority.

In principle, I won’t be opposed to delisting abortion. But that has to be part of the comprehensive rethink of Canada Health Act. Delisting of abortion can only be part of delisting of a whole bunch of other voluntary medical procedures (e.g. hip replacement, carpel tunnel operation, plastic surgery following mastectomy and many others). If abortion is delisted along with those, fine. But I would be strongly opposed to delisting abortion alone, just because a small but vociferous minority wants it.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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Not that many years ago my wife was a registered nurse and she worked at a well known general hospital in Vancouver. I was just finishing off my degree and my wife was working afternoon shifts in obstetrics. Usually, two weekends a month were set aside for abortions. Some women came in for a quick D & C while most were abortions of later term pregnancies, some were almost full term foetuses.
My wife would come home in tears because some of these abortions could have been viable babies and they were killed by the surgeon during the abortion.

Fetal viability is where I draw the line. However, in spite of the experience of your wife, very few abortions are performed after fetal viability. Indeed, in Canada it is very difficult to find a doctor who will perform an abortion after 24 weeks, a woman has to go to New York or Massachusetts for late term abortion.

Late term abortions are performed in Canada only if there is a serious risk to the health or the life of the woman.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Praxius wake up. We all know that the baby is killed during an abortion. It' just that a full term baby is a full term baby. I don't know of any way to justify the killing of a baby that could have lived.

Oh I'm fully awake, thank you.... but regardless of what you or your wife think, that's what's done and done legally. If one is not up for the procedures and what you might see, get a transfer. My mom helped deliver babies for a few months after getting back into nursing and said she'd rather have her hands deep into pig gutz up to her elbows than do that stuff again, so she transfered to a different department.

So since my mother was grossed out and put off of births, is that enough justification to stop having births take place in hospitals?

No, it's a personal decision on whether or not you can work in a certain field, and just because she did it and was/is a nurse, doesn't make her opinion absolute.

Late term abortions occur and are nothing new. They might have been able to be carried full term or born and stuck in an incubator right then and there, but that's not your or your wife's decision to make.

The fact of the matter is that they were aborted, their development ceased and they were discarded. They didn't reach full term, they were not born, they did not take their first breath and did not become independent from their host mother..... time to move on.

It's really funny how some in here try and consider an unborn fetus as equal to a born, living, breathing, conscious human being, and not considered a parasite..... when if a child is born with a "parasitic twin" that twin isn't classified the same way as the twin supporting its survival out of the womb and is usually removed, leading to its death.

It's called a "Parasitic Twin" because it needs to rely on the other twin's organs and blood supply to continue to live.... which is the exact same thing as an unborn fetus inside its host mother..... but that's different somehow. :-?
 

TenPenny

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I don’t see why abortion should be singled out as the medical procedure for non payment. That is only because of the small but noisy prolife minority.

In principle, I won’t be opposed to delisting abortion. But that has to be part of the comprehensive rethink of Canada Health Act. Delisting of abortion can only be part of delisting of a whole bunch of other voluntary medical procedures (e.g. hip replacement, carpel tunnel operation, plastic surgery following mastectomy and many others). If abortion is delisted along with those, fine. But I would be strongly opposed to delisting abortion alone, just because a small but vociferous minority wants it.

Here in NB, the gov't doesn't pay for circumcisions any more, because it's voluntary (or rather, usually imposed by the parents).
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Say that to a woman who just got raped.

Indeed... I'm no woman, but hypothetically with my current mindset, if I was raped by some wank and I got pregnant due to it, late term or early, I'd be getting that thing taken out. No, I wouldn't give it up for adoption, no I wouldn't even want to give birth to it.... it'd be a constant reminder of being raped and the thought of that spawn still being alive in the world somewhere, to eventually decide to track down his or her real parents, ie: me, and then come knocking on my door some years down the road looking much like the rapist asking if I was his or her mother and trying to be a part of my life again..... no thanks.

Plus I wouldn't give my hypothetical rapist the pleasure in having their genetics spread in this world.

Let's see.... the possible trauma of wondering "what-if" if I had an abortion, or the possible trauma of carrying this child for 9 months, birthing it, and having it roam the planet with the chance of it eventually coming back into my life?

I'd take the abortion.

Not the childs' fault I was raped?

I really don't care. It would have been spawned by an unwanted and very abusive action that was completely against my will, and since I personally feel having a child, birthing a child and raising a child is a very important and serious decision to one's life, I don't care about what others think.... Nobody should be treated as some human spawn sack with no say on the matter and be forced to carry it full term because they can't afford the operation on their own.... all because some people have personal hangups on the matter.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I don’t see why abortion should be singled out as the medical procedure for non payment. That is only because of the small but noisy prolife minority.

In principle, I won’t be opposed to delisting abortion. But that has to be part of the comprehensive rethink of Canada Health Act. Delisting of abortion can only be part of delisting of a whole bunch of other voluntary medical procedures (e.g. hip replacement, carpel tunnel operation, plastic surgery following mastectomy and many others). If abortion is delisted along with those, fine. But I would be strongly opposed to delisting abortion alone, just because a small but vociferous minority wants it.

Agreed.... remove it from coverage, then we should remove any medical procedures for smokers, alcoholics, people who have had very poor diets in their lives with poor hearts or diabetes..... remove coverage for any idiot who does extreme sports and injures themselves..... remove coverage for anybody in an auto accident and was their fault.....

.... and the list goes on.
 
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Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Typically, however, a woman who has been raped doesn't wait for 8.5 months to decide to have an abortion.

Depends on the situation.... are they being pressured by other people to keep it? When did they even find out that they were pregnant? Are they scared of the reactions of the people around her if she does go through with it? Did she possibly think it was from mutual sex with a partner and turned out to be from said rape?

I mean there's all sorts of situations and factors to account for.

#juan said: "Not that many years ago..."

Exactly how many years ago is "Not that many?"

2 years?

5 years?

20 years?

"Not that Many" is quite subjective, much like saying "Not that many years ago, Sealers hunted white coats." Unless you actually kept up to date on the sealing subject and knew it wasn't since 1987 (Can.) that white coats were hunted.

But some still count that as valid in todays' arguments.

Same with abortion.... #juan: "...while most were abortions of later term pregnancies, some were almost full term foetuses."

Most were? So most that she encountered were late term or close to full term pregnancies?

I'd like to know exactly how many years ago this was, as mentioned earlier by another member, getting a doctor to perform late term abortions in Canada isn't as easy as it once was.