Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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ban cars? ( i know, off topic, but please amuse me)

do you mean ban cars in downtown metro areas or do you mean ban cars everywhere. I agree with banning or limiting the use of cars in dense urban areas but don't see what the alternative to cars would be for inter-city travel (from a practical perspective given the realities of canadian geography and demographics)
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

Funny, I own about 20 guns, and I haven't killed anyone.

I find that quite excessive. Why is that necessary??? Different shaped bullet holes on your targets, or the animals you hunt? Larger exit wounds?
Really, isn't one ,more than enough?????

There are different guns for different purposes. I own a rimfire .22 handgun for rimfire target shooting, I own a S&W .357 revolver to keep in practise for my job. I own a .22 rimfire rifle for hunting, another for target shooting. I own a deer rifle, and a varmit rifle, a shotgun for duck hunting, and a different one for upland game birds.

Those are probably the only ones I have an excuse for. The others I own for different reasons. One was made in 1920, and is now in its fourth generation of my family. (I'm holding it for my son, who is not yet licensed) I own a couple for historical interest, and the rest belonged to my late father, so they have an different kind of value.

BUT in 30 years of memberships in gun clubs, hunting, shooting, and professional involvement with guns I have never known anyone hurt or wounded that was not involved in criminal activity. NOT ONCE!.

Really?
That's probably why you don't understand. I have, twice. (innocent bystander, hunting accident. )
It's terrible right.......???
Isolated incidents.............?
The chances of someone being shot ......are slim
If you took the guns out of both situations, and left the people, my friends would not be dead.

I am sorry to hear that.

Actually, I rethought my original post. I knew one guy who was shot dead during a drug deal. And I knew two other suicides, which I didn't include in my original thought, but I'm pretty sure they would have been suicides anyway.

But freedom is impossible without risk. How many friends have been killed in high-powered automobiles, while boating, on ATVs, because of cigarette smoking, hiking, snow mobiling, rock climbing, and on and on. If you are going to try to make this a safe world, you are doomed to fail.

The death rate remains the same: one per person.

The question is how free do you wish to be while making your personal trip to the end?
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

bhoour said:
Guns kill .
Period.
That is what they are made for .
The origional intent, was not target practice.

agree. "target practice" is just cosmetics. smoke and mirrors......in order to buy into the macho , testosterone laden gun toting society.

Anger , frustration and guns are the most lethal formula.

but there is a LOT of money in "guns"....... so it is quite easy to "justify " their existence and usage.

Visualize a no guns society. People have a difference.....and can't deal with their emotions /impulses..... they would have to duke it out with fists (eg .Cowboys in US style) ..........or enrol in anger management/ Karate and other martial arts........which would be healthier for them anyhow.

Just maybe ......people with "differences" would have to learn how to TALK to each other....... What a concept.. :roll:
 

Patsplace

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Dec 26, 2005
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Seeing as how most of the folks that post here will NEVER meet the gang bangers that are doing the killing and if they did, they'd be "easy meat", it's much easier to quote useless slogans, attack law abiding gun owners, posture behind some philosophical stance and feel good about it. Give yoursef a shake. This isn't a gun problem, it's a crime problem. Y'know, Get Rich or Die Trying.
Pat
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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well pat,

here is where we have the dilemma.

in a functional progressive society, people would have the resources they need and not desire more. In a fully functional society there would not be the ills of excess and greed, of capitalism.

On the other hand, a functional society is an open society which by definition does not use controls such as bans to promote the functioning of itself. An open, ecompassing society complete with a social consciousness needs not guns or a control on guns.

So guns are not the root issue, but they are a major contributing factor to the degree of the outcome of events.

Since most are not ready to give up their materialistic greed or their petty claims to social status, we will not see an end to the root causes of crime. Given this reluctance of people, the best outcome we can have is to limit the level of violence that stems from this social structure.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

the caracal kid said:
well pat,

here is where we have the dilemma.

in a functional progressive society, people would have the resources they need and not desire more. In a fully functional society there would not be the ills of excess and greed, of capitalism.

On the other hand, a functional society is an open society which by definition does not use controls such as bans to promote the functioning of itself. An open, ecompassing society complete with a social consciousness needs not guns or a control on guns.

So guns are not the root issue, but they are a major contributing factor to the degree of the outcome of events.

Since most are not ready to give up their materialistic greed or their petty claims to social status, we will not see an end to the root causes of crime. Given this reluctance of people, the best outcome we can have is to limit the level of violence that stems from this social structure.

nice post KK.
 

Patsplace

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Dec 26, 2005
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As has already been said, nice post…but…..Pabulum, pabulum, pabulum. Good pablum, well written, but pabulum none the less. "In a fully functional society - ills of excess and greed, of capitalism. An open, ecompassing society complete with a social consciousness needs not guns or a control on guns." "It's much easier to quote useless slogans - posture behind some philosophical stance and feel good about it."

There are already attempts in place to limit (read prohibit) the illegal use of force. In countries where crime flourishes and firearms are not universally available, sticks, stones and assorted farm implements become the weapons of choice. The common denominator is not the weapon, it’s the criminal.

Here, because of the global availability of firearms and the means to transport them, we're not going to get rid of guns. What we have to do is get rid of the criminals. There are probably only 100-200, if that, that are the root cause of the problem, which in many cases is some deadly & twisted social pecking order thing. It’s a horrid thing that a small gang of thugs holds an entire city hostage.

What we have in Toronto is crime out of control and until the crime is brought under control and I fear that it's going to get worse before it gets better, this is going to go on. Voting against programs to involve the youth in Canadian society, against taking the perps. off the street for a 2 year minimum mandatory for gun crimes, is tilting at windmills. Hard people doing hard things, require hard solutions. It’s always been so, and we, my erudite friend are no different.
Pat
 

zenfisher

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Sep 12, 2004
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

Patsplace said:
Seeing as how most of the folks that post here will NEVER meet the gang bangers that are doing the killing and if they did, they'd be "easy meat"
Pat

I wouldn't make that assumption.

I do agree fixing the underlying problem is a start. So is removing the ability of criminals to obtain arms. There in lies the problem. How do you restrict the criminal element from getting guns and allow law abiding citizens to keep them.

The best way is registration. If properly used it can be an effective tool used by the police.
 

Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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Nascar_James said:
This just goes to show that the gun registry in Canada is completely useless as criminals will not register their firearms. Two billion plus down the tubes.

What is needed is tougher punishment for those convicted of gun crimes. Scrap the gun registry, and drastically increase prison time for those committing gun related crimes.

We need to get back to punishing the criminals, not the law abiding folks.

Um, Gun registry was pretty much a complete failure in Canada.

well first off this was a horrible crime, and also the people who did it are going to be punished. But this doesn't take care of the root of the issue. Inner city poverity, Gun control at the border. I really do think this is more of a social issue then anything else.

There is no simple solution like a gun registry or stricter punishments. Just look down to our nabours and see how there doing with punishing inner city offenders.



:(
 

iamcanadian

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Nov 30, 2005
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If the same number of people were hurt just as bad by a guy swinging a baseball bat whats the difference?

The problem has nothing to do with guns.

It is moral and ethical corruption and not much different than a public official skimming millions of dollars.

These are social problems each applying their own way of being corrupt from the loss of personal respect for others.

It used to be called godlessness.
 

Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

iamcanadian said:
If the same number of people were hurt just as bad by a guy swinging a baseball bat whats the difference?

The problem has nothing to do with guns.

It is moral and ethical corruption and not much different than a public official skimming millions of dollars.

These are social problems each applying their own way of being corrupt from the loss of personal respect for others.

It used to be called godlessness.

You lost me on the Godlessness part, but when you say "These are social problems" I couldn't agree more.

Also we might be reading into this a little bit too much. From what I've read so far it is unsure what this was all about. There's some conflicting reports of a SUV with other people shooting back.

So this may or may not be gang related.

Also gangs are also a social problem, in urban places which should have social solutions.

I think I won't comment much further on this until all the facts are released by the authorities.

It's sad though that alot of innocent people have been injured and killed. :cry:
 

bhoour

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May 10, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

the caracal kid said:
ban cars? ( i know, off topic, but please amuse me)

do you mean ban cars in downtown metro areas or do you mean ban cars everywhere. I agree with banning or limiting the use of cars in dense urban areas but don't see what the alternative to cars would be for inter-city travel (from a practical perspective given the realities of canadian geography and demographics)

It's not realaistic, I know . Our society is too to dependent, and lazy for this to ever happen. We need to find an alternate solution, to limit the pollution.

:roll:
 

bhoour

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May 10, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

Colpy said:
But freedom is impossible without risk. How many friends have been killed in high-powered automobiles, while boating, on ATVs, because of cigarette smoking, hiking, snow mobiling, rock climbing, and on and on. If you are going to try to make this a safe world, you are doomed to fail.

The death rate remains the same: one per person.

The question is how free do you wish to be while making your personal trip to the end?

Life is impossible without risk. Not just on the extreme end of things, but everyday life. I get that.
Guns are an unecessary risk. There is no alternate purpose to a gun.
I can't make the world safer, I'm a slave too remember. The gov't(s) have the power to do so, but have chosen not to.
If there are no guns, then there are no gun related deaths. It does/can happen. If there are guns we don't have a choice in how free we want to be on our trip to the end. That can easily be decided for us, by a stray bullet .
To me they mean control, and death, not freedom.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

bhoour said:
Colpy said:
But freedom is impossible without risk. How many friends have been killed in high-powered automobiles, while boating, on ATVs, because of cigarette smoking, hiking, snow mobiling, rock climbing, and on and on. If you are going to try to make this a safe world, you are doomed to fail.

The death rate remains the same: one per person.

The question is how free do you wish to be while making your personal trip to the end?

Life is impossible without risk. Not just on the extreme end of things, but everyday life. I get that.
Guns are an unecessary risk. There is no alternate purpose to a gun.
I can't make the world safer, I'm a slave too remember. The gov't(s) have the power to do so, but have chosen not to.
If there are no guns, then there are no gun related deaths. It does/can happen. If there are guns we don't have a choice in how free we want to be on our trip to the end. That can easily be decided for us, a stray bullet .
To me they mean control, and death, not freedom.

Hear !!Hear !!

( guns.......seem to "empower" in a very dysfunctional way.......)
 

Summer

Electoral Member
Nov 13, 2005
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RE: Shooting in Downtown

I don't have a problem with hunting rifles. It's handguns that I find unnecessary.

I've enjoyed a bit of target shooting in my past (and I'm good at it, too) with a .22 caliber rifle in the company of friends who owned that and a couple of larger rifles used to take deer in season. We all ate venison from those deer. Personally, I doubt that I could even kill an animal, unless I was starving to death and it was the animal or me, but I know full well that I couldn't bring myself to kill a person. I don't want that kind of karma.

That said, I support the right of people to possess up to a certain number of hunting firearms, but I don't really see much point in handguns. Those ARE for killing people, or at least for harming them.
 

Nascar_James

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Jun 6, 2005
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Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

bhoour said:
Cars also have an alternate purpose to killing - transportation. Guns don't........only killing.
I do think that cars should be banned, but that is a whole different thread.

Guns are used in winter sports. They are also used by everyday target shooters such as myself. So, no they are not mearly for killing.

Cars, just like guns do not kill. People kill.
 

MMMike

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Mar 21, 2005
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Never understood how otherwise intelligent people can make these faulty leaps of logic. A bunch of criminals shoot up the town with (already) illegal weapons and your reaction is to bust down law-abiding citizens' doors and take their guns?? Ill conceived policy is doomed to failure from the start. Look at the ineffectual gun registry we already have. What if we had spent the $2 billion instead on giving jobs and skills to these marginalized youth in inner city communities?