Scotland might just show the rest of us the way to reset social democracy

Blackleaf

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They way I want them to go? Why would it matter to me which way it went. The UK ceased being relevant in my world too long ago to remember.

The UK is much more relevant on the world stage than Canada has ever been.


That does not mean that it still needs Ontario.

The recent financial crisis in Britain - which was largely caused in Edinburgh - in which the failed Scottish banks were only able to be bailed out due to Scotland being in the UK and having access to tens of millions of taxpayers in England, Northern Ireland and Wales (had Scotland been independent it would have been too small to bail out its banks and so would have been in deep doolally), was the best example in recent years of why Scotland is much better off in the UK.
 

Cannuck

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The UK is much more relevant on the world stage than Canada has ever been.

lol...us Canadians don't worry about such silly things. Perhaps if you Brits focused a bit more on the decline of your society and a little less on how you think you are percieved by the rest of the world, you would have created a place that Scots would have embraced.
 

Blackleaf

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lol...us Canadians don't worry about such silly things.

Yeah. Sure you don't.

Perhaps if you Brits focused a bit more on the decline of your society and a little less on how you think you are percieved by the rest of the world, you would have created a place that Scots would have embraced.

I think it's Canada and your declining economy that you need to worry about. Britain and her economy are booming. Concentrate on Canada's current woes before looking elsewhere.

By the way, the Scots are as British as I am.
 

Cannuck

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Yeah. Sure you don't.



I think it's Canada and your declining economy that you need to worry about.

Perhaps but I doubt it....and that would be a topic for another thread. This thread is about Scotland and how they have outgrown the UK
 

Blackleaf

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Perhaps but I doubt it....and that would be a topic for another thread.

The problem with you Canadians is that you have arrogantly been thinking that your economy is the best thing since sliced bread whilst much of the rest of the world's economy has gone to pot. You thought nothing could go wrong with your economy because it is all absolutely perfect. This has meant you have all failed to see the underlying problems in your economy which are now starting to manifest, so much so that whilst many other countries are just receovering from recession and are seeing increasing growth your economy is now starting to decline and could be on its way to recession.


This thread is about Scotland and how they have outgrown the UK

Scotland's population is one-twelfth that of the UK as a whole and its economy is 3.5 times smaller than that of London. Scotland's entire GDP is only about the same as that of Yorkshire. England has cities and counties with larger GDPs than the whole of Scotland.
 

captain morgan

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The problem with you Canadians is that you have arrogantly been thinking that your economy is the best thing since sliced bread

It is the best.

PS - A Canadian invented sliced bread.

You're welcome

whilst much of the rest of the world's economy has gone to pot.

This is very true, especially for Britain

You thought nothing could go wrong with your economy because it is all absolutely perfect.

You forget that Britain asked Canada for a favour in helping turn around your stalled and shrinking economy... We obliged (just like in WW I & II) and sent you a Canadian to clean up your Central Bank.

You're welcome
 

Blackleaf

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It is the best.

We'll see if that's the case when the 2014 economic growth figures come out at the end of the year and see if Canada's have, in any way, matched the UK's. I doubt it though, but we'll see.

PS - A Canadian invented sliced bread.

You're welcome

It was actually an American who invented sliced bread, and Britain has invented far greater things than sliced bread.


This is very true, especially for Britain

It's true for Canada. Your economy has gone to pot due to problems which you arrogantly overlooked because you thought your economy was hunkydory. The cracks are now starting to appear, however. Meanwhile, Britain's economy - which in the last few years has created more jobs than all the other 27 EUSSR member states put together and which is to see economic growth in 2014 that the rest of the large develoepd economies can only dream of - continues to go from strength to strength.

You forget that Britain asked Canada for a favour in helping turn around your stalled and shrinking economy...

No, we didn't. We did what we usually do during a recession. We kicked out the lefty Labour Government which helped to get us into the mess and voted in the Tories, whose economic policies get the economy back on track and put us on the way to outpacing all of our competitors. We are grateful to Mr Osborne for getting the economy back on track.
 

captain morgan

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We'll see if that's the case when the 2014 economic growth figures come out at the end of the year and see if Canada's have, in any way, matched the UK's. I doubt it though, but we'll see.



It was actually an American who invented sliced bread, and Britain has invented far greater things than sliced bread.




It's true for Canada. Your economy has gone to pot due to problems which you arrogantly overlooked because you thought your economy was hunkydory. The cracks are now starting to appear, however. Meanwhile, Britain's economy - which in the last few years has created more jobs than all the other 27 EUSSR member states put together and which is to see economic growth in 2014 that the rest of the large develoepd economies can only dream of - continues to go from strength to strength.



No, we didn't. We did what we usually do during a recession. We kicked out the lefty Labout Government which helped to get us into the mess and voted in the Tories, whose economic policies get the economy back on track and put us on the way to outpacing all of our competitors. We are grateful to Mr Oborne for getting the economy back on track.

You'll feel so much better if you simply admit your inferior standing in the world.

Hell, one half of the Empire has already left and the other half is voting on whether to leave.

Personally, I am looking forward to having the Turks and Caicos as part of Canada.... Maybe I'll go and visit Grenada once they have voted to rejoin Argentina (their rightful owners)
 

Cannuck

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The problem with you Canadians is that you have arrogantly been thinking that your economy is the best thing since sliced bread whilst much of the rest of the world's economy has gone to pot. You thought nothing could go wrong with your economy because it is all absolutely perfect. This has meant you have all failed to see the underlying problems in your economy which are now starting to manifest, so much so that whilst many other countries are just receovering from recession and are seeing increasing growth your economy is now starting to decline and could be on its way to recession.

One would think, given the amount of time you've spent on this forum, your understanding of what "Canadians" do and don't think would be a little more accurate. Then again, you are a product of the Brittish school system.

You'll feel so much better if you simply admit your inferior standing in the world.

Hell, one half of the Empire has already left and the other half is voting on whether to leave.

Personally, I am looking forward to having the Turks and Caicos as part of Canada.... Maybe I'll go and visit Grenada once they have voted to rejoin Argentina (their rightful owners)

We could argue all day as to who is better but I tend to take my lead from the general population. All one has to do is compare the numbers of Brittish that left and moved to Canada vs the number of Canadians that left and moved to the UK and the answer is quite clear. BL is just jealous because he can't afford to move here. Of course, all the talk of Canada is just a diversion from the real issue which is the further disintegration of the UK. It's glory days are far behind it.
 

DaSleeper

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Northern Ontario,
You'll feel so much better if you simply admit your inferior standing in the world.

Hell, one half of the Empire has already left and the other half is voting on whether to leave.

Personally, I am looking forward to having the Turks and Caicos as part of Canada.... Maybe I'll go and visit Grenada once they have voted to rejoin Argentina (their rightful owners)
Looks like Cannuck found a new dancing partner....."blackie"
A match made in heaven..................








Now waiting for that neg......:lol:
 

Blackleaf

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You'll feel so much better if you simply admit your inferior standing in the world.

Inferior to whom?

Hell, one half of the Empire has already left and the other half is voting on whether to leave.

And we all know which way that vote's going to go.

In fact, around 200,000 Scots have already voted in the referendum by postal vote.

Judging by the way that Salmond and his SNP numpties have looked more miserable, less confident and have been more angry in the last week (they had a spring in their step last weekend following news that one poll had shown they had taken the lead for the first time, but things have gradually declined for them since then) there are rumours circulating that they know someone we don't.

It could well be the case that the 200,000 or so postal votes have already been counted and the result hasn't gone their way according to those postal votes, and they therefore already know that they are going to lose the referendum by calculating the final result according to the postal votes. In fact, a woman linked to the SNP was saying on the Daily Politics yesterday that she believes the NO side will win.

The Scots Nats are now peddling "stab in the back myths" by blaming things on the BBC, conspiracies, "Westminster", etc. My bet is they know they have already lost this and they are creating alibis for their failure and showing contempt to the voters.

Personally, I am looking forward to having the Turks and Caicos as part of Canada....

Good luck with that.

Personally, however, I'm not sure the residents of that place with a booming economy would want to join a nation whose economy is stuttering.

And you can give me all the -1s you like. It doesn't bother me. I just say it as it is.

One would think, given the amount of time you've spent on this forum, your understanding of what "Canadians" do and don't think would be a little more accurate.

You all like attending CND rallies; raising money for charities dedicated to black, lesbian, Muslim, paraplegic, cross-dancing, pot smoking members of Greenpeace; and releasing nut cutlets back into the wild.


All one has to do is compare the numbers of Brittish that left and moved to Canada vs the number of Canadians that left and moved to the UK and the answer is quite clear.

All one has to do is compare the percentage of Canadian citizens who live abroad compared to the percentage of British citizens who live abroad.

By doing that, we find that 9% of Canadians live outside of Canada, with the UK the third most popular choice of destination for Canadian expats after the USA and Hong Kong, whereas just 8% of Britons live abroad, with Canada only the fourth most popular destination for British expats after Australia, Spain and the USA.

So a higher proportion of Canadians live abroad than Britons, and the UK is the third most popular destination for Canadian expats whereas Canada is only the fourth most popular destination for British expats. Now why is that?


BL is just jealous because he can't afford to move here.

I live in ENGLAND, for heaven's sake. ENGLAND, a land awash with history and culture and beautiful countryside. Why would I want to live in Canada?


It's glory days are far behind it.

At least we've had glory days.
 

Cannuck

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Too bad, living abroad is not the same as walking away from your home country. Nice try though. Frankly I'm proud of the fact that a Canadian had to move over to the UK and run your bank.
 

Kreskin

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The UK media has to love this. What better way us there to get people watching the news.
 

Blackleaf

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Too bad, living abroad is not the same as walking away from your home country. Nice try though.

A higher proportion of Canadians live abroad than Britons. It's as simple as that.


Frankly I'm proud of the fact that a Canadian had to move over to the UK and run your bank.


Quite proudly, I'm VERY proud of the fact that an Englishman had to move over to Canada and run YOUR bank between 1987 and 1994.

Latest poll

NO - 54%
YES - 46%

According to that Survation poll, the NO side has now moved eight points ahead just four days before the referendum.

However, as the silent NO majority of Scotland will be able to vote, in secret, accordingly on Thursday, without having to be scared of verbal and physical intimidation by the anti-democratic YES thugs, I still predict the NO side will win by an even bigger margin, somewhere in the region of 60%-40%.

Scotland's UKIP MEP David Coburn was on the Murnaghan show this morning and he told Murnaghan that he was having a chat with Scotland's Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon the other day (Salmond and Sturgeon - the SNP are very fishy) and she pointed out how most of the houses she passes on her campaign trail have YES signs in their windows. He told her that the reason for that was because most people who are planning on voting NO are too scared to come out and say so - and to display NO signs in their windows - because they are scared of being verbally and physically abused by the YES thugs and that the silent majority of NO voters will make their voices heard on Thursday.

And that's all the YES mob are. Intolerant, foaming-at-the-mouth, swivel-eyed, violent thugs who think they have every right to intimidate any Scot who doesn't believe that Scotland should be independent.
******************

This Scottish independence referendum is the first UK referendum ever in which 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to vote.

The SNP have given 16 and 17 year olds the opportunity to vote in this election because they thought that the youngsters would be overwhelmingly in favour of an independent Scotland (the SNP have tried to cheat their way to victory, in other words). Yet it seems that, in actual fact, young people are more likely to vote AGAINST independence than for it, so this is something which may well backfire on the Scottish nationalists and anti-English racists



The young (and the English) have restored Scotland’s ‘no’ lead

248 comments
12 September 2014
Fraser Nelson
The Spectator



No unionist should breathe easily after last night’s YouGov poll putting the ‘no’ team on a six-point lead. The race remains too close to call. And the poll also suggests a degree of volatility quite unlike that seen in general elections.

Michael Saunders from Citi has dug deeper into the figures (pdf). You need to treat all Scottish polls with caution, due to the sample size and the fact that the turnout may be high enough to include people who polling companies don’t know exist. But YouGov found that the under-25s (the ones more likely to vote on the day, rather than by post) have switched from a 20-point lead for ‘yes’ to a 6-point lead for ‘no’ in under a week.

See graph: http://forums.canadiancontent.net/editpost.php?do=updatepost&p=1977360

Now, 20pc of people born in Scotland have concluded that their future lies outside of Scotland. Being fully plugged into the network of the rest of the UK is an advantage: as a Scot in London I feel (and am treated) like a fellow countryman, not an immigrant. I have to say: it’s a good feeling, and one I’d certainly want to protect if I were a teenager mulling my future options. When I went back to my old school in the Highlands, Nairn Academy, one of the kids asked if English employers would be any less likely to hire Scots after independence. It’s a real concern.

The second reason the ‘no’ lead is back is that non-Scottish-born voters are coming to the same conclusion: do they want to be categorised as immigrants in their own country? Even factoring in the young, ‘no’ lead only exists due to the increasing concerns of voters born outside of Scotland.

See graph: http://static.spectator.co.uk/xIbAd/?fs=1

The YouGov poll talks about Scottish voters born in other parts of the UK (about a tenth of the electorate). The vast majority of these will be English. If they’re having second thoughts, as they stare down the precipice of separatism, I can understand why.

This is a very passionate campaign – dominated by optimism, but also with an unmistakable dash of fear. A dark side of nationalism is starting to present itself in Scotland: I was accused of being English by a ‘yes’ activist yesterday, his parting shot – and his ultimate insult. The Glaswegian pensioner I was talking to tells me that she hears that all the time (there are far worse examples), and she’s worried about it.

Salmond has done a good job keeping a lid on the xenophobic elements of nationalism. But his agenda – Scotland for the Scots, etc - is undeniably the politics of disunity. Is it any surprise that it also encourages the politics of intolerance? The vast majority of ‘yes’ supporters loathe this intolerance. But I’m not sure many of them would be bold enough to say that it doesn’t exist.

Right now, you can move from Aberystwyth to Aberdeen while moving from one part of your country to another. A Londoner can settle in Inverness and feel that they are amongst countrymen. It’s a good feeling, something precious – and something worth saving.

The benefits of staying united, of keeping our amazing country together, are worth more than all of the oil in the North Sea. The opportunities of the union, and the fraternity that it represents, are two of the most powerful arguments that the ‘no’ campaign can make. I do hope they make them in the next week.



UPDATE As you might expect, some nationalists are none too happy with the enemy within. Here’s one:-



It could well be that a majority of Scottish-born vote ‘yes’ but the decision is swung to ‘no’ by the English living in Scotland. Then you may hear moans about the perfidious English ‘preventing’ independence. But if the vote had been extended to Scots living in England (including yours truly) the ‘no’ lead would be much bigger.

The young (and the English) have restored Scotland’s ‘no’ lead » Spectator Blogs

***********************************

Jim Sillars’ threat of a ‘day of reckoning’ exposes the darker side of Scottish nationalism

107 comments
12 September 2014
Fraser Nelson
The Spectator


Alex Salmond and Jim Sillars yesterday

Only yesterday, Jim Sillars was being paraded by Alex Salmond as a nationalist heavyweight who has been taken back into the fold. He had once fallen out with Alex Salmond but the two were, apparently, good friends again. A photoshoot, above, consummated this reconcilliation. Sillars is a former SNP deputy leader but now not part of the apparatus- so he can speak freely. All too freely, as it turns out.

Here’s what he has said today.
“This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks. The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a ‘yes’. BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors.”
So Scotland’s refusal to go all Hugo Chavez on its companies is, to Sillars, an example of the SNP administration ‘forced’ by Westminster to be ‘soft’ (ie, not lay down the law to) companies. Their expressing their concerns about his separation plan is the same as ‘subverting our democracy.’ They have become enemies of the Scottish people, according to Sillars, and will be treated as such.

Sillars had a bit more to say. Under a separate Scotland, companies like Standard Life would be required to give two years' warning of any layoffs they wanted to make. This sounds crazy, more like East Germany than a new Scotland. But as Silllars put it:
“What kind of people do these companies think we are? They will find out.”
For Scotland’s sake, I hope we don’t find out. Sillars will, I hope, soon be condemned by the SNP hierarchy who will disassociate themselves with his demagoguery. But all this unnerves businesses, who can imagine where all the nationalism might lead Scotland where it has led other countries. This is why increasing number of them have to reassure shareholders that, if Scotland votes ‘yes’, they will not stick around for long enough to see what Mr Sillars meant.

Jim Sillars’ threat of a ‘day of reckoning’ exposes the darker side of nationalism » Spectator Blogs
 
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Blackleaf

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Today's Scottish Daily Express is the latest Scottish newspaper to declare for the NO side. It means that most Scottish newspapers have now declared themselves for NO.

Remember, it will be Scotland, not Britain, which will suffer most economically and politically if it votes YES on Thursday.

EDITORIAL: Why we must vote to remain in the UK

TODAY the Scottish Sunday Express urges readers to say No Thanks to Alex Salmond’s dream of breaking up the United Kingdom.

September 14, 2014
Scottish Sunday Express


Scottish Sunday Express urges Scotland to vote No [ALLAN PEEBLES]

There are many reasons for voting against separation, from legitimate fears over the economy to the pride we feel in our great family of nations.

The Better Together campaign has made mistakes along the way, yet its key message has never wavered – highlighting the enormous risks of going it alone and the patchwork of empty promises made by the SNP.

In recent weeks, the First Minister has repeatedly called on opponents to say that Scotland could be a successful country.

What Mr Salmond will never recognise is that we already are a successful country – we are part of the world’s sixth largest economy, a founding member of the G8 and one of the pillars of Nato and the West.

Of course we could be a separate nation, although the road to get there would be a long and difficult one.

But the referendum ballot paper does not ask if Scotland could be independent – it asks if we should.

And, after carefully weighing up all the evidence presented to us for more than two years, we believe the answer, emphatically, is No we should not.

Our default position has always been supportive of the Union but this was not a decision we arrived at lightly.

Editorially, the Scottish Sunday Express answers to nobody but our readers – and if there is a No vote we will campaign to ensure that the extra powers promised by Westminster are delivered to Holyrood.


Labour's Jim Murphy was campaigning with "No" supporters

Here, in our opinion, are the key reasons for voting to remain part of the United Kingdom:

? The economy: North Sea oil and gas is a fantastic asset but a volatile industry on which to base our future. The SNP’s predictions are overly optimistic. Even Sir Ian Wood, the country’s foremost expert, says voters have been “misled” by “false claims”. Oil giants Shell and BP have also declared their support for the Union. Financial services is another cornerstone, yet RBS, Lloyds/HBOS, Standard Life and Clydesdale will all flee south if we separate, taking with them enormous tax revenues and putting thousands of jobs at risk. Our whisky distillers will never leave, of course, yet most industry leaders are behind the security of the UK.

? The currency: A separate Scotland could keep the pound but it would almost certainly be without the safety net of a currency union. The leaders of the three Westminster parties have staked their careers on this position. The Governor of the Bank of England says such a move would be “incompatible with sovereignty” and while the people of England and Wales wish us to stay, they do not want to grant us a financial safety net if we decide to go. Plan B, which Alex Salmond refuses to spell out, is clearly to retain the pound unofficially, as Panama uses the dollar, while reneging on our share of UK debt. It is a recipe for ruin.

? The United Kingdom: We are bound by 300 years of incredible shared history, a deep well of friendship and family ties that run deeper than any political movement. Almost one million Scots live in England, Wales and Northern Ireland yet they will not get a say in this referendum, while one third of all English people have Scottish blood to some extent. Our families stretch across the Border and will become foreigners to one another. The antagonism that would follow a Yes vote, as both sides are forced to drive the hardest bargain for their citizens, would break millions of hearts.

? The Yes mobs: A significant minority of independence supporters have displayed thuggish and intimidatory ­behaviour, with many ordinary folk afraid to express a view in public lest they be targeted. Cybernats have written appalling abuse on the internet, jeering yobs have dogged pro-Union politicians, while Better Together signs and banners have been wrecked and defaced with graffiti. Of course, there are idiots in both camps but the majority of this disgraceful bullying has come from one side alone. This has never been how we have conducted our politics, and nor should it ever be.

? Pensions: The maths are simple. With an ageing population, there will soon not be enough working people paying taxes in Scotland to support the state pension. Alex Salmond says he can reverse these numbers by boosting immigration and encouraging youngsters to stay at home. Maybe he can but is this really a risk that we should be prepared to take? For private pensions, the EU has ruled that schemes which operate across international borders must be fully funded. If we create a national border with England, then hundreds of companies with employees on either side will find themselves with a £170billion pensions funding gap.

? Defence: In the 670-page independence white paper, only 19 are dedicated to the proposed Scottish Defence Force. It promises to restore the seven Scottish regiments merged in 2006 – yet we will have only three infantry battalions. We are to expel Trident but still expect to shelter under the Nato nuclear umbrella. Westminster has delivered cruel defence cuts in recent years but for a country with such a proud martial tradition, the feeble alternative being put forward is nothing short of scandalous.

? Europe: The Conservatives might promise an In/Out referendum on EU membership but David Cameron’s position is clear – he wants us to stay in. Like Scottish independence, this is a debate which must be resolved before the UK can move on. The greater risk to Scotland’s membership comes from voting Yes on Thursday.

We will only be allowed to rejoin the EU if every other member state agrees and countries such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, are ­certain to make life especially difficult. Ministers tried to hide their legal ­advice on EU membership – then were forced to admit they didn’t have any!

? The monarchy: The SNP says the Queen would remain as head of state only “for as long as the people of Scotland wished our country to remain a monarchy”. With overwhelming support for a republic among Yes Scotland, we should be in no doubt that Her Majesty’s position would be in grave danger after separation.

? Energy: It is seven years since Alex Salmond first boasted that Scotland would become the “Saudi Arabia of renewables”. Since then tidal, wave and offshore wind energy projects have floundered, while our world famous landscape is now studded with wind turbines. These monstrosities are supported by subsidies from English consumers, while the largest percentage of Scottish electricity is still provided by nuclear power.

? The SNP’s record in government: Introducing state guardians for all our children, scrapping the ancient legal safeguard of corroboration, introducing the jingoistic Curriculum for “Excellence”, merging our police forces and secretly arming our police officers. And don’t forget the first minority term in office, propped up by an annual budget deal with the Tories, a party the SNP now claims to despise.

? Our place in the world: No longer will we sit at the top table with the USA, Germany, France, China and Russia, steering world events from a position of power rather than shouting from the margins. The small and expensive Scandinavian nations will be the new benchmark.

"Alex Salmond says this is a lucky generation and we agree – we have been given the chance to save the United Kingdom"


"No" supporters taking to the streets


The "No" campaign says it has the momentum

There are many further questions, such as the flaws in the Holyrood political system; the uncertainty over broadcasting; the cultural insularity of smaller nations; the Yes campaign’s disgraceful claims over the future of the NHS; the dictatorial style of the SNP in government – all these and more have persuaded us that a No vote is the only sensible choice.

These are arguments for the head and the heart, but if you are still undecided then perhaps you should go with your gut. We believe that for most people in Scotland, their gut instinct tells them that it is better to be part of the UK, that while independence might be a nice pipe dream, it is not worth risking everything for.

This is evidenced by the fact that for years – decades, even – the polls showed that only around one in three of us backed separation. This position has only altered in recent months, thanks to Alex Salmond’s slick patter and the seeds of division sown by the SNP.

Despite the narrowing of the polls, we continue to believe that there is a silent majority out there in favour of remaining part of Britain.

On Thursday, this quiet army of ordinary Scots, decent folk who have kept their counsel and not shoved their views down everybody else’s throat, must finally make their voices heard. Nobody should be in any doubt about what is at stake. Whatever you do on September 18, no matter how busy you are, you must vote in this referendum.

Alex Salmond says this is a lucky generation and we agree – we have been given the chance to save the United Kingdom.

Let us grasp it with both hands.

Scottish Sunday Express urges readers to vote NO to breaking up UK | UK | News | Daily Express
 
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Cannuck

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Richard Desmond (owner of the Scottish Daily Express) is English. Of course his paper is going to be against Scottish independence. Why don't you post something newsworthy.